mfbukowski Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 54 minutes ago, bluebell said: Why doesn't the chart explain how someone receives eternal life? Or what that even means. Strumming harps on a cloud?
Popular Post cinepro Posted February 12, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Thought I covered that? If "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men", wouldn't that mean that at some point during mortal existence, all mankind will be presented with the choice to believe? The heavens even declare the glory of God (Ps 19:1). Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Let's take a Chinese boy living in the Zhou dynasty (~800 BC) who dies at the age of five. How was he theoretically presented with the "choice to believe"? 8
FormerLDS Posted February 12, 2016 Author Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: No religious denomination has yet been able to deliver on the promise of eternal life in any demonstrable way, so it's probably unwise for any particular denomination to get too cocky about it. If the words of Jesus Christ are not enough to convince you of truth or error, then who am I? Jesus Christ said in John chapter 5 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” I was dead. I believed His word. I am now passed from death unto eternal life. What more do you need friends?
mfbukowski Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 14 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Thought I covered that? If "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men", wouldn't that mean that at some point during mortal existence, all mankind will be presented with the choice to believe? The heavens even declare the glory of God (Ps 19:1). So you look up at the sky and then you are "saved"? You go to the temple of Ooga Booga afterwards, but no problem, right?
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted February 12, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, cinepro said: Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Let's take a Chinese boy living in the Zhou dynasty (~800 BC) who dies at the age of five. How was he theoretically presented with the "choice to believe"? Oh my gosh I am agreeing with cinepro. No more worries about hell, it just froze over. 8
mfbukowski Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If the words of Jesus Christ are not enough to convince you of truth or error, then who am I? Jesus Christ said in John chapter 5 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” I was dead. I believed His word. I am now passed from death unto eternal life. What more do you need friends? How do you know the bible is true? How do you know it's not just a bunch of stories? 6 day creation, talking donkeys, worldwide flood- who would believe that? How do you know it's God's word in the first place?? Do you know about the cult or Mithras that parallels the story of Jesus and comes from the same time period? How do you know Jesus is not just made up? Edited February 12, 2016 by mfbukowski 2
JLHPROF Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If the words of Jesus Christ are not enough to convince you of truth or error, then who am I? Jesus Christ said in John chapter 5 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” I was dead. I believed His word. I am now passed from death unto eternal life. What more do you need friends? Context to the poetry. And interestingly this doesn't even require any belief in Christ. It requires only a belief in the Father (him that sent me). Perhaps Christianity isn't even necessary...when this verse is taken out of context I mean. Edited February 12, 2016 by JLHPROF
Gray Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If the words of Jesus Christ are not enough to convince you of truth or error, then who am I? Jesus Christ said in John chapter 5 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” I was dead. I believed His word. I am now passed from death unto eternal life. What more do you need friends? We don't have access to "the words of Jesus Christ". We have access to the stories written about Jesus, which reflect the views of the communities that wrote them, and late recollections and passed along stories about the life of Jesus. Good spiritual teachings stand or fall on their own merits. Trying to make it about authority is kind of useless. Scripture has never been the literal words of God. Scripture is instead a human product. Edited February 12, 2016 by Gray 1
JLHPROF Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, Gray said: We don't have access to "the words of Jesus Christ". We have access to the stories written about Jesus, which reflect the views of the communities that wrote them, and late recollections and passed along stories about the life of Jesus. Good spiritual teachings stand or fall on their own merits. Trying to make it about authority is kind of useless. Scripture has never been the literal words of God. Scripture is instead a human product. I am never going to be able to convince you of the opposing view am I?
Popular Post The Nehor Posted February 12, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2016 13 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If the words of Jesus Christ are not enough to convince you of truth or error, then who am I? Jesus Christ said in John chapter 5 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” I was dead. I believed His word. I am now passed from death unto eternal life. What more do you need friends? This is a discussion board and not a proselyting board. Oh, and your God is morally monstrous. 6
Gray Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I am never going to be able to convince you of the opposing view am I? Probably not, but that's okay. It would be boring if we all believed the same thing.
FormerLDS Posted February 12, 2016 Author Posted February 12, 2016 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: Mormons "believeth on" Jesus Christ, so based on that scripture, why don't you believe that Mormons are saved? Anyone can be saved. I was a Mormon when I discovered the truth and was saved. Think about a "gift" and think about a "reward". They are complete opposites. A gift is given freely and without payment of any kind. A reward is given only in recognition of personal worthiness, merit and achievement. The Bible says "the gift of God is eternal life" in Romans 6, so clearly eternal life is given freely and without any payment in return. Why does LDS theology teach that you cannot have eternal life during mortality? Because the "eternal life" the LDS "savior" offers is not a free gift, but the reward of worthy behavior.
JLHPROF Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Just now, Gray said: Probably not, but that's okay. It would be boring if we all believed the same thing. I'm just not sure how you know what to believe since none of the doctrinal teachings can rightly be called the word of God in your view. Everything just becomes some man's opinion and there is no source to move towards.
FormerLDS Posted February 12, 2016 Author Posted February 12, 2016 21 minutes ago, cinepro said: Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying. Let's take a Chinese boy living in the Zhou dynasty (~800 BC) who dies at the age of five. How was he theoretically presented with the "choice to believe"? I don't know, but if God says that His grace which brings salvation appeared to him then I believe that at some point in his life he was faced with a decision.
JLHPROF Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: I don't know, but if God says that His grace which brings salvation appeared to him then I believe that at some point in his life he was faced with a decision. Or maybe your timing on salvation is off and that young boy from 800 BC will yet have the opportunity to be saved. 2
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 2 hours ago, Gray said: No religious denomination has yet been able to deliver on the promise of eternal life in any demonstrable way, so it's probably unwise for any particular denomination to get too cocky about it. An example would be the Westminster Reformed monstrosity.
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Hey, good observation, but keep in mind those who do not have eternal life are not His children because they have never been "born again" into His family. In John chapter 8, Jesus told the unsaved "Ye are of your father the Devil". Again, Jesus said unto the rejected of the Saviour in Matthew chapter 8 "I never knew you". How could they be His children if he "never knew" them? Yet you are assuming who is part of those Jesus never knew. That is quite the sin. 1
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: So is the Lake of Fire like a really hot hot tube where it feels really painful at first but then you get used to it? Oh how I love your humor.
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: I'm not going to tell you what you personally believe, but if you are saying the chart above is properly aligned with LDS theology then keep attending Gospel Principles class and you'll soon make it to that chapter. Halconero is quite informed. He and I may have had this discussion while he was a missionary in the ward I attended in 2011.
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, cinepro said: Just to be clear, what happens to everyone who is born but never have the chance to read the Bible or learn about Jesus? Would you like the Westminster Reformed answer? I promise that it's not good.
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Not to mention the billions already burning in hell because they were born in a culture that did not know of Christ. Ridiculous. What kind of God is that? An unjust and unmerciful god. 1
Popular Post busybee Posted February 12, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Thought I covered that? If "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men", wouldn't that mean that at some point during mortal existence, all mankind will be presented with the choice to believe? The heavens even declare the glory of God (Ps 19:1). So are you saying that every person who has ever lived, or will ever live has had, or will have the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ and to believe or not believe in him during their mortal lives on this earth?. Everyone born before Christ was born, everyone born in remote places on the planet? Every single person? Interesting. Please explain how this can be true? Do you know that there are people on the earth today who have never heard of Christ, and who may die before they will do so? 6
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 12, 2016 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Anyone can be saved. I was a Mormon when I discovered the truth and was saved. Think about a "gift" and think about a "reward". They are complete opposites. A gift is given freely and without payment of any kind. A reward is given only in recognition of personal worthiness, merit and achievement. The Bible says "the gift of God is eternal life" in Romans 6, so clearly eternal life is given freely and without any payment in return. Why does LDS theology teach that you cannot have eternal life during mortality? Because the "eternal life" the LDS "savior" offers is not a free gift, but the reward of worthy behavior. Awesome, so all Mormons are saved. Thanks for clarifying. 7
Gray Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'm just not sure how you know what to believe since none of the doctrinal teachings can rightly be called the word of God in your view. Everything just becomes some man's opinion and there is no source to move towards. Mostly I just believe in good principles. And I know they're good principles because they bear good fruit in my life. Scripture is just the start of the conversation, not the end of it.
carbon dioxide Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Former--your chart did not explain much at all. I guess all babies that die go to hell since they do not have the capacity to receive Jesus in any meaningful way under your formula. Edited February 12, 2016 by carbon dioxide 1
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