Church and child abuse

ALarson · February 9, 2016

Danzo, there are many sources. Here's another one:

http://www.caring-unlimited.org/what-is-domestic-violence/for-service-providers/for-mental-health-and-substance-abuse-practitioners-social-workers

Quote

In working with victims of domestic violence it is important to adopt the following principles, which will help guide a safe and effective response.

- Hold perpetrators of abuse responsible for the abuse and responsible for ending the abuse - never hold the victim responsible for staying.

Johnnie Cake · February 10, 2016

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Danzo, there are many sources. Here's another one:

http://www.caring-unlimited.org/what-is-domestic-violence/for-service-providers/for-mental-health-and-substance-abuse-practitioners-social-workers

He's clueless...you're wasting your time.I honestly don't think he can grasp the impact abuse has on a victim...it is utterly ridiculous to hold an abuse victim responsible for their own abuse.

ALarson · February 10, 2016

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

He's clueless...you're wasting your time.I honestly don't think he can grasp the impact abuse has on a victim...it is utterly ridiculous to hold an abuse victim responsible for their own abuse.

I know and I agree. I am sad and pretty shocked that the example he gave was that an abused woman "shares responsibility" for being beaten by her boyfriend

Edited February 10, 2016 by ALarson

Danzo · February 10, 2016

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I know and I agree. I am sad and pretty shocked that the example he gave was that an abused woman "shares responsibility" for being beaten by her boyfriend

I am shocked and saddened that you feel she has no responsibility for returning to her boyfriend (even when he is in Jail)

I guess we are both going to have to get used to being shocked and saddened by each other.

Bob Crockett · February 10, 2016

1 hour ago, Walden said:

That "two-deep" policy must be a new one....when I was in the Young Men's program in the early 90's, I was annually taken behind closed doors with a member of the bishopric (just me and him) and questioned regarding masturbation and sexual thoughts or practices. So was every other member of the Young Men's program, and not just with a particular bishop, but with all the bishops that served throughout my youth. It was standard practice. Jeez, to even consider that I would send my young son or daughter behind closed doors with a middle-aged man, one who has absolutely no training in teen counseling, to discuss masturbation practices is just appalling.

There the ugly argument appears again against the church. Of course, in most states, the priest-penitent privilege is compromised if there are more than two persons involved in the conversation. The law applies to children as well. So---

ALarson · February 10, 2016

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I am shocked and saddened that you feel she has no responsibility for returning to her boyfriend (even when he is in Jail)

Wow. Did you even read the links given at your request?

38 minutes ago, ALarson said:

In working with victims of domestic violence it is important to adopt the following principles, which will help guide a safe and effective response.

- Hold perpetrators of abuse responsible for the abuse and responsible for ending the abuse - never hold the victim responsible for staying.

Walden · February 10, 2016

27 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

There the ugly argument appears again against the church. Of course, in most states, the priest-penitent privilege is compromised if there are more than two persons involved in the conversation. The law applies to children as well. So---

No "ugly argument," just recounting my upbringing in the LDS faith.

Johnnie Cake · February 10, 2016

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I am shocked and saddened that you feel she has no responsibility for returning to her boyfriend (even when he is in Jail)

I guess we are both going to have to get used to being shocked and saddened by each other.

You can't be this naïve? Danzo, come on really?

ttribe · February 10, 2016

15 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You can't be this naïve? Danzo, come on really?

It's the "I know you are, but what am I?" defense. It's always a high class way to maintain decorum and civility in a debate.

rpn · February 10, 2016

Quote

When exactly is an abused responsible for their abuse? NEVER He can't be serious (although he is) and frankly I'm Gobsmacked. This is an extremely harmful message and should be stricken from all LDS records.

I am a date rape survivor. Had I not chosen to get drunk, which violated the commandments, I would have noticed where it was going and probably been able to stop it. I am absolutely responsible, not for the rape --- which was against my will, but for giving mixed signals and for being drunk.

It is popular for at least the most strident of advocates to argue that survivors never bear any responsibility at all. While that is accurate for the illegal act itself, there are often multiple earlier choices that would have eliminated the ultimate illegal actions. I tend to think we make survivors into victims by telling them that they shouldn't examine and fix the things they did have control over, which might have prevented what happened.

Pretty sure that is what Elder Scott was talking about, as at least in the college scene most rapes are proceeded by consensual intimate activity and drinking which violate God's laws (at least if someone is a member of the LDS church for the latter), and often also involved rejecting inspiration not to go or do something.

Tacenda · February 10, 2016

3 hours ago, Walden said:

That "two-deep" policy must be a new one....when I was in the Young Men's program in the early 90's, I was annually taken behind closed doors with a member of the bishopric (just me and him) and questioned regarding masturbation and sexual thoughts or practices. So was every other member of the Young Men's program, and not just with a particular bishop, but with all the bishops that served throughout my youth. It was standard practice. Jeez, to even consider that I would send my young son or daughter behind closed doors with a middle-aged man, one who has absolutely no training in teen counseling, to discuss masturbation practices is just appalling.

I have grown sons, and to think I never questioned these interviews, also with my grown daughters, even though I had a bad experience myself. I guess I trusted the bishoprics I had. And they never really complained, so hopefully I dodged, or they dodged the bullets. We've always seemed to have good bishoprics. I guess I could ask my children now if they felt ashamed or any other thing that might have made their lives worse.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Tacenda

Russell C McGregor · February 10, 2016

19 hours ago, rpn said:

survivor...

Thank you for the courage you've shown in talking about your experience. It can't have been easy for you.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Russell C McGregor

sjdawg · February 10, 2016

On 2/2/2016 at 1:28 AM, Calm said:

It could have been a reporter asking for information about the release and why it was done. Or a friend of an employee drawing their attention to it.

Not saying they don't. I think it would be a good idea for the Church leadership to make use of the internet to keep track of discussions going on about it and things related to it so they have that input on what is important to people.

Marlin Jensen told me once that the Church has a team of people monitoring the internet daily for items in the news regarding the Church. Perhaps that also extends to blogs

JulieM · February 10, 2016

4 hours ago, rpn said:

I am a date rape survivor. Had I not chosen to get drunk, which violated the commandments, I would have noticed where it was going and probably been able to stop it. I am absolutely responsible, not for the rape --- which was against my will, but for giving mixed signals and for being drunk.

It is popular for at least the most strident of advocates to argue that survivors never bear any responsibility at all. While that is accurate for the illegal act itself, there are often multiple earlier choices that would have eliminated the ultimate illegal actions. I tend to think we make survivors into victims by telling them that they shouldn't examine and fix the things they did have control over, which might have prevented what happened.

rpn, I admire your strength and courage. I am so glad you survived the rape and are healthy enough to actually write about it and share your horrible experience. Thank you for this.

But, please know that you are not responsible for being raped. Not even a little bit, not at all. And, I hope you are not carrying around guilt and shame because this was done TO you.

You can regret drinking or being too intimate with someone because those were your decisions. But when you said "No!" or "Stop", and this other person made a decision to hurt you and force themself on you and rape you, that was their choice and their's alone. They are absolutely 100% responsible for committing the act of rape.

You are no more to blame than a woman (or child) is to blame for making a man so angry that he "has to" hit or beat her.

The rapist is responsible for the rape just as the abuser is responsible for any abuse they inflict on their victim.

I hope you can continue to heal. Thank you again for your honesty and strength.

Edited February 10, 2016 by JulieM

ALarson · February 10, 2016

8 hours ago, JulieM said:

You are no more to blame than a woman (or child) is to blame for making a man so angry that he "has to" hit or beat her.

The rapist is responsible for the rape just as the abuser is responsible for any abuse they inflict on their victim.

This (and excellent entire post). It's akin to claiming that a woman was asking to be raped because of what she was wearing.

This is a sensitive topic, but it's important to put responsibility on the person making the choice to inflict harm and even possible death on another person whether it be through rape or abuse. The victim is not responsible in either situation.

rpn, thank you for sharing something that had to be extremely painful for you. But you share no responsibility for being raped. And, as JulieM stated, I also hope you can continue healing from something I'm sure you're still feeling much pain over still today. I'm very sorry you had to go through that.

rpn · February 10, 2016

I don't claim I or other survivors do share responsibility for the rape. But that doesn't mean I don't have responsibility for my own actions in the events leading up to it.

And my point is that all of the "don't feel [filll in the blank]" is a tragic and uncalled for response to control survivor's who are empowered in retaining control of what they are responsible for. Those who do it might think of themselves as enlightened (and some even consider survivors defective/stupid/unhealthy for accepting their own responsibility). Yet it is incredibly offensive to be told what and how a survivor is entitled to think about what happened to them. I know they think they know what they are talking about (there is a lot of training nowadays about how survivors are never to "blame" for anything"), and I know some even think it necessary to heal. But in my mind it infantilizes and takes away a survivor's power in ways almost as harmful as the rape itself. IME, owning the choices we make strengthens the ability to heal from the acts that we didn't choose, didn't want and couldn't control.

ALarson · February 10, 2016

12 minutes ago, rpn said:

I don't claim I or other survivors do share responsibility for the rape. But that doesn't mean I don't have responsibility for my own actions in the events leading up to it.

I completely agree with this. We are all entirely responsible for our own actions.

And, I apologize if any of my post offended you. This is something I have gone through with a family member, so I'm not completely naive or unfamiliar with it (although I know it's different when I did not personally go through it). I was just expressing sorrow that this was done to you and wishing you well.

But, I stand by my statement regarding who is responsible when violence or abuse is inflicted on another person.

.

Edited February 10, 2016 by ALarson

Tacenda · February 10, 2016

9 hours ago, JulieM said:

rpn, I admire your strength and courage. I am so glad you survived the rape and are healthy enough to actually write about it and share your horrible experience. Thank you for this.

But, please know that you are not responsible for being raped. Not even a little bit, not at all. And, I hope you are not carrying around guilt and shame because this was done TO you.

You can regret drinking or being too intimate with someone because those were your decisions. But when you said "No!" or "Stop", and this other person made a decision to hurt you and force themself on you and rape you, that was their choice and their's alone. They are absolutely 100% responsible for committing the act of rape.

You are no more to blame than a woman (or child) is to blame for making a man so angry that he "has to" hit or beat her.

The rapist is responsible for the rape just as the abuser is responsible for any abuse they inflict on their victim.

I hope you can continue to heal. Thank you again for your honesty and strength.

This! I couldn't say it as well, so I'm very glad you came along and spoke it to a "t", JulieM.

I don't care if RPN was drunk, still not her fault!

Edited February 10, 2016 by Tacenda

Tacenda · August 16, 2017

Is there going to be another "Spotlight" movie, but this time the LDS church in the spotlight? Is this Mormon Leak evidence of it possibly happening? https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/60/INSTANCES_OF_CHILD_SEXUAL_ABUSE_ALLEGEDLY_PERPETRATED_BY_MEMBERS_OF_THE_CHURCH_OF_JESUS_CHRIST_OF_LATTER-DAY_SAINTS-2017-06.pdf

I saw the above link on another board, and I don't see it on MormonLeaks so don't know how accurate they are. But the links on page after page, seem to be legit.

Here is a devastaing story of a boy who was abused horribly by a member of the church, and when his mother told the bishop it seems that it lead to nothing happening to bring the monster to justice. http://archive.seattleweekly.com/2007-05-30/news/one-man-s-brutal-encounter-with-sexual-abuse-in-the-mormon-church/

Edited August 16, 2017 by Tacenda

Duncan · August 16, 2017

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Is there going to be another "Spotlight" movie, but this time the LDS church in the spotlight? Is this Mormon Leak evidence of it possibly happening? https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/60/INSTANCES_OF_CHILD_SEXUAL_ABUSE_ALLEGEDLY_PERPETRATED_BY_MEMBERS_OF_THE_CHURCH_OF_JESUS_CHRIST_OF_LATTER-DAY_SAINTS-2017-06.pdf

I saw the above link on another board, and I don't see it on MormonLeaks so don't know how accurate they are. But the links on page after page, seem to be legit.

Here is a devastaing story of a boy who was abused horribly by a member of the church, and when his mother told the bishop it seems that it lead to nothing happening to bring the monster to justice. http://archive.seattleweekly.com/2007-05-30/news/one-man-s-brutal-encounter-with-sexual-abuse-in-the-mormon-church/

Those are the cases that went to press or justice, I have no doubt it happened more often but never got reported etc. It doesn't just happen in our church, it's everywhere

thesometimesaint · August 16, 2017

If you are looking for people in the Church who do deplorable things. There are plenty of examples. Dollars to donuts that a lot of jails/prisons in the US have at least one former or current Mormon in it. I'd rather spend my time building the Kingdom than trying to tear it down.

Tacenda · August 16, 2017

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Those are the cases that went to press or justice, I have no doubt it happened more often but never got reported etc. It doesn't just happen in our church, it's everywhere

I know it happens everywhere.

It has been a difficult day, I just want to yell loud enough about all the injustices to humans. Put a stop to it all happening. I hope the church will yell loud too. I know it has already on child abuse, but I hope it will never hide or put it aside again, in the name of reputation. This is the past and I hope for the future there will be changes within leaderships out there. I know it's difficult for the church to be everywhere at one time, and that these are individual members in leadership callings that are in the wrong. I'm glad the church has gone to great strides to combat it. But hope it will continually, out loud, and if a leader hides abuse, be ex'd.

Danzo · August 16, 2017

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Is there going to be another "Spotlight" movie, but this time the LDS church in the spotlight? Is this Mormon Leak evidence of it possibly happening? https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6/60/INSTANCES_OF_CHILD_SEXUAL_ABUSE_ALLEGEDLY_PERPETRATED_BY_MEMBERS_OF_THE_CHURCH_OF_JESUS_CHRIST_OF_LATTER-DAY_SAINTS-2017-06.pdf

I saw the above link on another board, and I don't see it on MormonLeaks so don't know how accurate they are. But the links on page after page, seem to be legit.

Here is a devastaing story of a boy who was abused horribly by a member of the church, and when his mother told the bishop it seems that it lead to nothing happening to bring the monster to justice. http://archive.seattleweekly.com/2007-05-30/news/one-man-s-brutal-encounter-with-sexual-abuse-in-the-mormon-church/

How much of your time is devoted to looking for ugly horrible things people have done in the past?

What is the point?

Do you enjoy it?

Does it make you feel better about yourself?

Danzo · August 16, 2017

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I know it happens everywhere.

Yet you tend to look for it only in certain places (from 30 years ago

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hope the church will yell loud too. I know it has already on child abuse

Then why do you go to extraordinary efforts to bring it to light again and again?

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is the past and I hope for the future there will be changes within leaderships out there

You say you are looking for a change in leadership, are you blaming the current leadership? Is this an accusation?

Tacenda · August 16, 2017

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

How much of your time is devoted to looking for ugly horrible things people have done in the past?

What is the point?

Do you enjoy it?

Does it make you feel better about yourself?

These are the things I dwell on day after day. Abuse in any system, or anywhere I guess. I wish I could go about my day differently and make like all is good in the world. But the internet, news, personal stories, tell a grown up story and the innocence is taken away.

If my post helps anyone, then I won't feel terrible sharing it.

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