Church and child abuse

Calm · February 9, 2016

36 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But no one is responsible for someone else making a choice to abuse another person except that person who chooses to continue abusing.

Do you see someone who actively seeks out someone who is abusive (think those into S&M for an extreme example) as not responsible at all for the abuse?

I would be interested in hearing from someone who is trained in this area to see if this is damaging or helpful language. I can see how it might be empowering to someone who finds his or herself in abusive situations to see him or herself as responsible in part for them, as this might allow one to feel that change is possible. But I don't know if that is actually a helpful or accurate view.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Calm

ALarson · February 9, 2016

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you see someone who actively seeks out someone who is abusive (think those into S&M for an extreme example) as not responsible at all for the abuse?

I don't know that would be considered abuse (unless the acts went beyond what was mutually consented to). Interesting topic, though!

Russell C McGregor · February 9, 2016

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This thread is about child abuse.

But Elder Scott's talk wasn't exclusively about child abuse.

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But no one is responsible for someone else making a choice to abuse another person except that person who chooses to continue abusing.

Do you really want to go on record here of stating that a woman is responsible for being beaten by her boyfriend?

Actually while the "malicious abuser/innocent victim" model is a popular one, and may even be valid in some cases, conflict within relationships is frequently, or even usually, more complicated than that.

ttribe · February 9, 2016

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I think there are many times when an abused shares responsibility for their abuse.

53 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Woman I knew, was beaten to a pulp everytime I saw her by her boyfriend.

She even sent him to Jail, yet . .

She still kept going back to him.

This is an utterly irresponsible statement. Johnnie Cake is right, you don't understand the psychology of abuse; at all. I'd suggest you not comment on something you don't understand.

Danzo · February 9, 2016

46 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

How exactly does an abused person take responsibility for their abuse? Honestly you are way over your head in this one...I suggest you just give up while your behind

It would appear that you do not have much experience in helping people who are experiencing abuse.

People take responsibility by taking charge of their situation and doing what they can do to stop the abuse.

A couple of years ago, a neighbor of mine confided in my wife that her husband was abuse her and her children. This neighbor had been putting up with this abuse for several years, saying it was her fault and there was nothing that she could do about it anyway.

Explaining to her that by not doing anything about the abuse this woman was partially responsible for the abuse of her children convinced her to contact the police and to do get the help she and her children needed. Had she not take responsibility for this abuse the abuse might still be occurring today.

Danzo · February 9, 2016

14 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This is an utterly irresponsible statement. Johnnie Cake is right, you don't understand the psychology of abuse; at all. I'd suggest you not comment on something you don't understand.

I don;t think you have any idea what you are talking about, please share your first hand experiences helping people who have been abused.

Thinking · February 9, 2016

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

When you take away responsibility, you take away the power to change things, to power to proactively affect your situation.

Often, Only when someone takes responsibility for their situation, can they get the help they need and make the changes necessary to stop the abuse.

We have some semantics going on with the word responsibility. Danzo is using the word to represent trying to change the situation. Most everybody else is using it to assign fault for an action. Let's understand the difference and move past this semantics game and discuss the real issues.

ALarson · February 9, 2016

3 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Actually while the "malicious abuser/innocent victim" model is a popular one, and may even be valid in some cases, conflict within relationships is frequently, or even usually, more complicated than that.

The example given was a boyfriend who was beating his girlfriend. Do you also believe that she was "shares responsibility" for the beatings as Danzo stated?

Edited February 10, 2016 by ALarson

Danzo · February 9, 2016

53 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You clearly have no understanding of the psychology of abuse

Please share your experiences that have contributed to your expertise in help people who have experienced abuse.

Danzo · February 9, 2016

4 minutes ago, Thinking said:

We have some semantics going on with the word responsibility. Danzo is using the word to represent trying to change the situation. Most everybody else is using it to assign fault for an action. Let's understand the difference and move past this semantics game and discuss the real issues.

I think I am using the word in the same sense that elder Scott was using the word, which is why I am bringing it up.

Johnnie Cake · February 9, 2016

41 minutes ago, Danzo said:

that you do not have much experience in helping people who are experiencing abuse.

People take responsibility by taking charge of their situation and doing what they can do to stop the abuse.

A couple of years ago, a neighbor of mine confided in my wife that her husband was abuse her and her children. This neighbor had been putting up with this abuse for several years, saying it was her fault and there was nothing that she could do about it anyway.

Explaining to her that by not doing anything about the abuse this woman was partially responsible for the abuse of her children convinced her to contact the police and to do get the help she and her children needed. Had she not take responsibility for this abuse the abuse might still be occurring today.

Danzo STOP while you're behind...You're not helping yourself. It is quite normal behavior for an abused person to blame themselves for their abuse...this in NO way makes them responsible for that abuse...seriously stop...you're embarrassing yourself only made worse by the fact that you don't even know that you are doing so...I'm not trying to be rude...just being honest and help you know that you're in over your head.

Edit to add: I believe that you feel that you are correct in this matter, I get that, and if we are speaking in semantics I apologize, but a victim of abuse is never responsible for their abuse ever. This is often the mind set of an abuser... and I'm not suggesting that this applies to you...but many abusers believe firmly that their victims deserve the abuse given...this mind set does not make that abuse correct...surely you can see this

Edited February 9, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

ttribe · February 9, 2016

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I don;t think you have any idea what you are talking about, please share your first hand experiences helping people who have been abused.

Really? You want to play "Who knows more?" Okay, my wife holds a B.S. in Psychology and Master of Counseling degree. She's a Licensed Professional Counselor in the State of Arizona. She was an outpatient psychotherapist specializing in working with abused children prior to the birth of our first child. We've spent a great deal of time talking about abuse issues; she having been on the front lines of these matters.

I, myself, do not have the same formal training, but did spend two years in a doctoral program in which my minor was judgment and decision making. I spent quite a bit of time examining the ways in which people are psychologically manipulated.

Are we done with this silliness?

Edited February 9, 2016 by ttribe

Walden · February 9, 2016

On 2/2/2016 at 6:16 AM, Tacenda said:

"The Church enforces a “two-deep” policy so that adult males who work with children or youth are never alone with a minor. At great expense, the Church is currently installing windows in the classroom doors of thousands of its meetinghouses so that children are never out of sight. As a result of these and many other efforts, abuse on Church properties or during Church activities is rare."

I saw someone comment on this quote yesterday that there really isn't a two deep policy when you have bishop interviews and home teaching, both leave a boy alone with one man. YW alone also.

That "two-deep" policy must be a new one....when I was in the Young Men's program in the early 90's, I was annually taken behind closed doors with a member of the bishopric (just me and him) and questioned regarding masturbation and sexual thoughts or practices. So was every other member of the Young Men's program, and not just with a particular bishop, but with all the bishops that served throughout my youth. It was standard practice. Jeez, to even consider that I would send my young son or daughter behind closed doors with a middle-aged man, one who has absolutely no training in teen counseling, to discuss masturbation practices is just appalling.

Danzo · February 9, 2016

32 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Danzo STOP while you're behind...You're not helping yourself. It is quite normal behavior for an abused person to blame themselves for their abuse...this in NO way makes them responsible for that abuse...seriously stop...you're embarrassing yourself only made worse by the fact that you don't even know that you are doing so...I'm not trying to be rude...just being honest and help you know that you're in over your head.

Edit to add: I believe that you feel that you are correct in this matter, I get that, and if we are speaking in semantics I apologize, but a victim of abuse is never responsible for their abuse ever. This is often the mind set of an abuser... and I'm not suggesting that this applies to you...but many abusers believe firmly that their victims deserve the abuse given...this mind set does not make that abuse correct...surely you can see this

I am not sure what your experience with abuse is, but in the many occasions I have had to deal with victims of abuse, the first step seems to be that the one being abused needs to find a way to take "responsibility" for their situation. Maybe you want to used a different word than "responsibility", perhaps "responsibility" is too loaded a word for you, but I have found that feeling sorry for the abused just doesn't help the situation much.

I don't know where you get the idea that a victim is never responsible for anything, do you have documentation to back that up? Is this some sort of fact established by science that a victim is never responsible for anything? Is this a law written somewhere?

Danzo · February 9, 2016

23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Really? You want to play "Who knows more?" Okay, my wife holds a B.S. in Psychology and Master of Counseling degree. She's a Licensed Professional Counselor in the State of Arizona. She was an outpatient psychotherapist specializing in working with abused children prior to the birth of our first child. We've spent a great deal of time talking about abuse issues; she having been on the front lines of these matters.

I, myself, do not have the same formal training, but did spend two years in a doctoral program in which my minor was judgment and decision making. I spent quite a bit of time examining the ways in which people are psychologically manipulated.

Are we done with this silliness?

Good, Since you are so well informed, please provide a reference that some one who is a victim is never, ever, in any way responsible for anything that they do, that they have no agency in the matter and that they, by virtue of being a victim are absolved, legally and morally of anything they do or might have done.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Danzo

Walden · February 9, 2016

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Good, Since you are so well informed, please provide a reference that some one who is a victim is never, ever, in any way responsible for anything that they do, that they have no agency in the matter and that they, by virtue of being a victim are absolved, legally and morally of anything they do or might have done.

see Patty Hearst

Danzo · February 9, 2016

5 minutes ago, Walden said:

see Patty Hearst

She served time, didn't she?

ALarson · February 9, 2016

17 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I am not sure what your experience with abuse is, but in the many occasions I have had to deal with victims of abuse, the first step seems to be that the one being abused needs to find a way to take "responsibility" for their situation. Maybe you want to used a different word than "responsibility", perhaps "responsibility" is too loaded a word for you, but I have found that feeling sorry for the abused just doesn't help the situation much.

I don't know where you get the idea that a victim is never responsible for anything, do you have documentation to back that up? Is this some sort of fact established by science that a victim is never responsible for anything? Is this a law written somewhere?

The quote we were discussing states "responsibility for abuse", it does not state responsibility for anything.

A victim of abuse is not responsible for the abuse.

Edited February 9, 2016 by ALarson

ttribe · February 9, 2016

11 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Good, Since you are so well informed, please provide a reference that some one who is a victim is never, ever, in any way responsible for anything that they do, that they have no agency in the matter and that they, by virtue of being a victim are absolved, legally and morally of anything they do or might have done.

Umm, no. I'm not going to dredge up all the literature on the study and treatment of abuse victims. Such a thing would be voluminous and unwieldy. Not to mention the fact that it is you who asserted that you believe that "there are many times when an abused shares responsibility for their abuse." If someone needs to be backing up their assertion in this discussion, it is you. I'll leave it to you to find credible research supporting such a position. In the meantime, to quote Scott Lloyd "I stand by what I said" - Indiscriminately stating that abuse victims are somehow responsible for the abuse inflicted upon them is a dangerous and irresponsible thing for you to say in a public forum.

Johnnie Cake · February 9, 2016

32 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I am not sure what your experience with abuse is, but in the many occasions I have had to deal with victims of abuse, the first step seems to be that the one being abused needs to find a way to take "responsibility" for their situation. Maybe you want to used a different word than "responsibility", perhaps "responsibility" is too loaded a word for you, but I have found that feeling sorry for the abused just doesn't help the situation much.

I don't know where you get the idea that a victim is never responsible for anything, do you have documentation to back that up? Is this some sort of fact established by science that a victim is never responsible for anything? Is this a law written somewhere?

I'll give you one thing you are persistent but in the kindest words possible...Please, for the sake of the abused victims, do not have any future engagements with any survivor of abuse. If as you claim you have had many occasions to interacted with victims of abuse. I understand that you want to present yourself with your fellow board members here in what you think is the best light... and I've tried (unsuccessfully) to protect you. but honestly you are making a fool of yourself.

This quote alone demonstrates that you have absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about

Quote

I don't know where you get the idea that a victim is never responsible for anything

Really? If you must persist all I can say is that I've tried to save you from yourself...but if you insist on your current course...be my guest...its your reputation to destroy, at least on this subject you proven beyond doubt that have no credibility. If you insist on digging yourself in deeper...who am I to stop you, I've tried to stop you and failed...so I guess dig away...China is that way

Edited February 9, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

Danzo · February 9, 2016

10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'll give you one thing you are persistent but in the kindest words possible...Please, for the sake of the abused victims, do not have any future engagements with any survivor of abuse. If as you claim you have had many occasions to interacted with victims of abuse. I understand that you want to present yourself with your fellow board members here in what you think is the best light... and I've tried (unsuccessfully) to protect you. but honestly you are making a fool of yourself.

This quote alone demonstrates that you have absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about

Really? If you must persist all I can say is that I've tried to save you from yourself...but if you insist on your current course...be my guest...its your reputation to destroy, at least on this subject you proven beyond doubt that have no credibility. If you insist on digging yourself in deeper...who am I to stop you, I've tried to stop you and failed...so I guess dig away...China is that way

So you don't have any evidence. . . . but when you don't have any, no worries just slander the person you don't agree with.

Danzo · February 9, 2016

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

The quote we were discussing states "responsibility for abuse", it does not state responsibility for anything.

A victim of abuse is not responsible for the abuse.

OK, show me evidence that a victim can never, in any way be responsible for the abuse.

ALarson · February 9, 2016

44 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Good, Since you are so well informed, please provide a reference that some one who is a victim is never, ever, in any way responsible for anything that they do, that they have no agency in the matter and that they, by virtue of being a victim are absolved, legally and morally of anything they do or might have done.

Why do you keep using the word "anything"? Of course people are responsible for what "they do". But the victim is not doing the abusing. You get that, right?

Do you believe that the victim may be responsible for the abuse? If so, then use the word abuse instead of such a general word as anything.

Edited February 9, 2016 by ALarson

ttribe · February 9, 2016

14 minutes ago, Danzo said:

So you don't have any evidence. . . . but when you don't have any, no worries just slander the person you don't agree with.

11 minutes ago, Danzo said:

OK, show me evidence that a victim can never, in any way be responsible for the abuse.

Good grief, it's not that hard. Do your own research if you are actually asking this in good faith. Here, I've done some of the work for you - http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Are+abuse+victims+to+blame+for+their+abuse%3F

Johnnie Cake · February 9, 2016

34 minutes ago, Danzo said:

OK, show me evidence that a victim can never, in any way be responsible for the abuse.

Honestly, I'm done. Assume what you want, take a victory lap, but your statement is just so ridiculous and based in so much ignorance, it deserves no reply. Have a nice evening.

Oh and its utterly offensive that all those murder victims don't take responsibility for being murdered...shame on them...how dare they not take responsibility for their killers killing them...its despicable.

PS: BTW I can't produce any evidence that a murder victim can never, in any way be responsible for their murder...the question is just as absurd as asking to provide evidence that a victim of abuse could ever be responsible for their abuse

Edited February 10, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

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