VideoGameJunkie Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 I guess it's hard to understand how someone who's waiting in the spirit world doesn't accept temple work done for them. How could that be? It's like I can't understand how the third host of heaven followed Lucifer in rebellion to Outer Darkness in God's presence, but I guess agency allows some people to make interesting decisions. I always just assumed that every temple work I've ever done was accepted, including my own ancestors, but I could be wrong.
Guest Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Agency continues throughout all our lives. So Temple work can be rejected, that coupled with the fact that even in the Spirit world. That is why missionary work continues into the Spirit world, so that if the work has been done, they can recieve it, and work has been done they can recieve it right away.
salgare Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Video How could you possibly not want/get last rites from a Catholic Priest right before you die?
Duncan Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 my aunt doesn't want her work done but we are doing it anyways just to make her mad 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 17, 2016 Author Posted January 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, salgare said: Video How could you possibly not want/get last rites from a Catholic Priest right before you die? There's got to be a difference though in our minds and understanding in the mortal world and in the spirit world where the veil is off. Where we understand our decisions better.
strappinglad Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Take a close look at the folks around you in this world. Ever found anyone who continues to do stuff that they know is harmful? Ever found anyone who avoids doing something that they know would be good for them? Welcome to humanity. 1
Sanpitch Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 50 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I guess it's hard to understand how someone who's waiting in the spirit world doesn't accept temple work done for them. How could that be? It's like I can't understand how the third host of heaven followed Lucifer in rebellion to Outer Darkness in God's presence, but I guess agency allows some people to make interesting decisions. I always just assumed that every temple work I've ever done was accepted, including my own ancestors, but I could be wrong. Though I'm a sceptic, I've wondered the same thing. I would assume the third of the spirits in heaven who rebelled or those who have past on to the spirit world would know more about the overall plan than anyone on earth today. If they know more about it and the plan is so wonderful, why the rejection. Is there something we don't know? 1
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 36 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: There's got to be a difference though in our minds and understanding in the mortal world and in the spirit world where the veil is off. Where we understand our decisions better. I am not convinced the veil is removed when we die. My understanding is it probably does not come off until the Final Judgement. For the wicked I am not even sure it ever comes off.
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 30 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: Though I'm a sceptic, I've wondered the same thing. I would assume the third of the spirits in heaven who rebelled or those who have past on to the spirit world would know more about the overall plan than anyone on earth today. If they know more about it and the plan is so wonderful, why the rejection. Is there something we don't know? The plan is very risky. I am guessing that, not counting those who die before they are accountable, most of the people on earth are destined for the Telestial. My understanding is there were tests we passed to get to that point in Premortality. The thought of such a dangerous test would put most people off. Then you have someone who argues he can guarantee you a passing grade. I have been told it did not tempt me then but now that I am here it does not seem that bad a concept if it could have avoided the suffering of this world. Imagine being told that the plan could involve war, violence, abuse, rape, slavery, apostasy, jealousy, hatred, loss, heartache, disease, etc. and then the devil says he can take out those parts. It gives Satan a good marketing angle. Of course Satan was a liar and had no such ability so the plan was a dead letter but I can definitely see
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 18, 2016 Author Posted January 18, 2016 57 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: Though I'm a sceptic, I've wondered the same thing. I would assume the third of the spirits in heaven who rebelled or those who have past on to the spirit world would know more about the overall plan than anyone on earth today. If they know more about it and the plan is so wonderful, why the rejection. Is there something we don't know? I agree. I would think those in the spirit world and the third host of heaven knew so much better about the wonderful plan of salvation than us mortals with the veil over our minds.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 18, 2016 Author Posted January 18, 2016 29 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I am not convinced the veil is removed when we die. My understanding is it probably does not come off until the Final Judgement. For the wicked I am not even sure it ever comes off. Good point
Storm Rider Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: Though I'm a sceptic, I've wondered the same thing. I would assume the third of the spirits in heaven who rebelled or those who have past on to the spirit world would know more about the overall plan than anyone on earth today. If they know more about it and the plan is so wonderful, why the rejection. Is there something we don't know? If a group has the chance where each of them could win a billion dollars and one says - I can make sure each of you gets a billion dollars, but you each will have to do exactly as I say. Another person says, I know the maker of this deal and I know he wants each of us to win, but there is more to this than meets the eye. I can make sure you each have a chance to win a billion dollars, but some of you might not if you don't choose wisely. It will be your choice and no one else's. How many would choose the first proposal? I think I understand how many were deceived and none of them understood what the real plan was or how it would function. It would seem they each were focused totally on what they would get and nothing else i.e. they were selfish.
Glenn101 Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 46 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I am not convinced the veil is removed when we die. My understanding is it probably does not come off until the Final Judgement. For the wicked I am not even sure it ever comes off. I am in agreement with the first part. If the veil came off in the Spirit World, that would destroy our agency, at least partially because faith and the witness of the Holy Ghost would be replaced by a knowledge of things at least of how they had been in the pre-earth life. However, it may be that a lot of minds will be a bit more open to the Gospel message in the Spirit World because things will not be as most have been taught by their respective religions. The atheist, for one, will be confronted with the reality that their body is dead, but somehow they, their identity, their spirit, is still alive. The Muslim will not find any Houris waiting for him. A good read might be the experiences of Frederick William Hurst. Glenn
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 18, 2016 Author Posted January 18, 2016 I was always hoping the veil would be removed right when we die.
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I was always hoping the veil would be removed right when we die. I am hoping I can get it off while I am still alive but I do not hold out a ton of hope for it.
salgare Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: There's got to be a difference though in our minds and understanding in the mortal world and in the spirit world where the veil is off. Where we understand our decisions better. Then it would not be a fair test would it? in other words the only reason one is taught in spirit prison is if they never got the chance to hear the gospel in mortal life. Then it is expected they would end up in the same place as if they had been taught in mortal life ... their personalities, spiritual strength is the same. There is no advantage in spirit prison over moral life.
JAHS Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 40 minutes ago, salgare said: Then it would not be a fair test would it? in other words the only reason one is taught in spirit prison is if they never got the chance to hear the gospel in mortal life. Then it is expected they would end up in the same place as if they had been taught in mortal life ... their personalities, spiritual strength is the same. There is no advantage in spirit prison over moral life. Yes. "Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." (Alma 34: 34)
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 5 hours ago, salgare said: Video How could you possibly not want/get last rites from a Catholic Priest right before you die? After I'm dead I certainly don't object if some caring Catholic Priest says some nice words about me. 2
Thinking Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 According to LDS doctrine, when does a person gain a perfect knowledge? if perfect knowledge is gained at death, it wouldn't make sense to reject temple ordinances. If perfect knowledge isn't gained until after the final judgement, then perhaps faith is still required to accept the LDS gospel in the spirit world.
thesometimesaint Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: The plan is very risky. I am guessing that, not counting those who die before they are accountable, most of the people on earth are destined for the Telestial. My understanding is there were tests we passed to get to that point in Premortality. The thought of such a dangerous test would put most people off. Then you have someone who argues he can guarantee you a passing grade. I have been told it did not tempt me then but now that I am here it does not seem that bad a concept if it could have avoided the suffering of this world. Imagine being told that the plan could involve war, violence, abuse, rape, slavery, apostasy, jealousy, hatred, loss, heartache, disease, etc. and then the devil says he can take out those parts. It gives Satan a good marketing angle. Of course Satan was a liar and had no such ability so the plan was a dead letter but I can definitely see I believe God is a successful parent. The vast majority of us will be in the Celestial Kingdom if not the highest degree therein.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 18, 2016 Author Posted January 18, 2016 20 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I believe God is a successful parent. The vast majority of us will be in the Celestial Kingdom if not the highest degree therein. I hope you're right.
Glenn101 Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 37 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I believe God is a successful parent. The vast majority of us will be in the Celestial Kingdom if not the highest degree therein. I wish that you were correct. However, we human beings are not very good children. Although God is perfect, Satan was able to draw away one third of the hosts of Heaven while we were all in God's presence. Now that we have bee placed here upon the earth, without that Divine Presence, there are too many of us who fit the following scripture, "Doctrine and Covenants 132:22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me." Glenn
Scott Lloyd Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 7 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I guess it's hard to understand how someone who's waiting in the spirit world doesn't accept temple work done for them. How could that be? It's like I can't understand how the third host of heaven followed Lucifer in rebellion to Outer Darkness in God's presence, but I guess agency allows some people to make interesting decisions. I always just assumed that every temple work I've ever done was accepted, including my own ancestors, but I could be wrong. Your assumption may very well be correct. But those who object to our performing temple ordinances for the deceased assume -- without any way of knowing -- that the deceased don't want it done. So we make it clear no one on the other side is obligated to accept the work done in his or her behalf.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 6 hours ago, salgare said: Video How could you possibly not want/get last rites from a Catholic Priest right before you die? If it would make said priest -- or someone else -- feel better, I would be quite OK with it. I would regard it as a magnanimous gesture, in fact. I would consider it to be tantamount to a prayer in my behalf. And I'll take all the prayers I can get. I wonder why you suppose a typical Mormon would object to it.
halconero Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 Parley P Pratt believed and taught that the veil was not wholly lifted at the time of death and that those who died as Quackers, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Baptists, Buddhists or whatever would still maintain the mentalities and worldviews they had in this world in their new one. Though they might understand that they were dead, or passed on, they would continue to interpret the Spirit-world they were in through the theological/philosophical/political/scientific lens they had in mortality. They might even organize themselves in the same institutions they had in mortality. It's a view to which I'm partial, as it seems to jive with the necessity of missionary work in the Spirit World in instructing those there on the principles and ordinances of the Gospel. I used to believe that the veil was a product of mortality, and best exemplified by the mortal brain. I believe I was wrong about that. The fact that the scriptures indicate the veil was in place prior to the human Fall into mortality, as well as the temple ordinances, have both lead me to believe that it's much more esoteric than I understand at the moment. In fact, I coming to the belief based on the culmination of the endowment that only those who are resurrected into celestial glory will have a full removal of the veil. 1
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