VideoGameJunkie Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 It seems people try to trash the credibility of Joseph Smith and the church over The Book of Abraham being a wrong translation of the documents. My question though is does it even matter if Joseph didn't get it right, if what he did produce is more important to us as scripture in the Pearl of Great Price? Even if it was a false translation, I don't see the church ever taking it out of canonized scripture, and it still offers us inspiration from what Joseph produced. I just don't see the big deal if he got it wrong from the literal translation, because what we got is so much better and more important.
Calm Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 If what you mean is he misunderstood the source of what he was giving us, that it was something else besides the papyri, but the actual source whatever it was the Word of God as are other scriptures, I see that as an acceptable solution. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Quote Does it even matter if the Book of Abraham isn't a correct translation? No. If it is true, it is true, regardless of source.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 11 minutes ago, Calm said: If what you mean is he misunderstood the source of what he was giving us, that it was something else besides the papyri, but the actual source whatever it was the Word of God as are other scriptures, I see that as an acceptable solution. Ya that's what I meant. I don't know if my words came off that clear though.
BCSpace Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Quote Does it even matter if the Book of Abraham isn't a correct translation? We don't have enough of the papyri to draw this conclusion. As for the facsimiles, how do we know the current nonLDS anthropological thinking is the version that was originally portrayed? It's a very damaging story to the political and religious elite of the day and it could have been changed to make it more politically correct. The ancient Egyptians are famous for doing this sort of thing; changing the stories and divine legitimacy of predecessors etc. 2
RevTestament Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seems people try to trash the credibility of Joseph Smith and the church over The Book of Abraham being a wrong translation of the documents. My question though is does it even matter if Joseph didn't get it right, if what he did produce is more important to us as scripture in the Pearl of Great Price? Even if it was a false translation, I don't see the church ever taking it out of canonized scripture, and it still offers us inspiration from what Joseph produced. I just don't see the big deal if he got it wrong from the literal translation, because what we got is so much better and more important. Well, it does matter, because the fascimiles are obviously referencing the scrolls we do have. As I have indicated here before, I don't believe the Book of Abraham itself came from one of those three scrolls but from a fourth spoken of by Emma Smith, which we currently do not have. Therefore, the Book of Abraham itself cannot be a true translation of those 3 scrolls. So we cannot know whether it is a "wrong translation." I do believe the book to be inspired from whatever source it was derived.
cinepro Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Matter to whom? Because it certainly does seem to matter a lot to some people, and others not so much. 4
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 48 minutes ago, cinepro said: Matter to whom? Because it certainly does seem to matter a lot to some people, and others not so much. This.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 1 hour ago, cinepro said: Matter to whom? Because it certainly does seem to matter a lot to some people, and others not so much. A lot of people say the Book of Abraham is the biggest destroyer of faith in the CES letter.
salgare Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 2 hours ago, cinepro said: Matter to whom? Because it certainly does seem to matter a lot to some people, and others not so much. Some to whom it matter enough for them to pick it up and defend, it ended up being their downfall. For apologist it seems to be a curse of King Tuts tomb type deal. It is a long and complex trail to try and follow the apologetic history of this topic. There are few that grasp the depths of it. I'm sure as heck not one of them.
Sanpitch Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 41 minutes ago, salgare said: Some to whom it matter enough for them to pick it up and defend, it ended up being their downfall. For apologist it seems to be a curse of King Tuts tomb type deal. It is a long and complex trail to try and follow the apologetic history of this topic. There are few that grasp the depths of it. I'm sure as heck not one of them. I've tried to follow the story of the BofA since 1966-7 when the first papyrus showed up. I think any apologist would have a hard time trying to defend that book to anyone with an unbiased mind. I think the supposed translation is definitely tied to the papyrus and to the facsimiles on those fragments. But just my opinion. Nibley wrote a series of articles in the Improvement Era and never said anything worth while about the translation to my mind of course. 2
salgare Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 The church would likely be well to remove the facsimiles, but I can see they are between a rock and a hard place between the fingers of scorn that would cause verses the controversial part they play in the debates.
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seems people try to trash the credibility of Joseph Smith and the church over The Book of Abraham being a wrong translation of the documents. My question though is does it even matter if Joseph didn't get it right, if what he did produce is more important to us as scripture in the Pearl of Great Price? Even if it was a false translation, I don't see the church ever taking it out of canonized scripture, and it still offers us inspiration from what Joseph produced. I just don't see the big deal if he got it wrong from the literal translation, because what we got is so much better and more important. Agreed It is a work of inspiration I don't care where it came from
cinepro Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: A lot of people say the Book of Abraham is the biggest destroyer of faith in the CES letter. I suspect polygamy is the biggest "destroyer of faith" for women, and the Book of Abraham is the biggest "destroyer of faith" for men. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 Logically I see no difference between the BOM and BOA. Arguably both came purely out of Joseph's mind. What's the difference? Where is either manuscript? And most importantly, why is this even an important question? Each stands on its own. And yet some say the BOA destroys faith and the BOM creates it?? I will never understand that logic. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 3, 2016 Author Posted January 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Logically I see no difference between the BOM and BOA. Arguably both came purely out of Joseph's mind. What's the difference? Where is either manuscript? And most importantly, why is this even an important question? Each stands on its own. And yet some say the BOA destroys faith and the BOM creates it?? I will never understand that logic. Well we don't have the gold plates to translate so we can't discredit the Book of Mormon, but people have translated the fascimilies and claimed it was a funery document. No proof that Book of Mormon wasn't real.
salgare Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Agreed It is a work of inspiration I don't care where it came from I have no problems with a more nuanced view of scripture or prophets as I have heard/understand you to say. Along the lines of wondering if the Church, in some ways, would like to remove the facsimiles, I wonder if they wish there were someway to withdrawn the one true Church concepts? Of course this is related to and comes to very sticky issues as to a historical BoM as well.
omni Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 39 minutes ago, cinepro said: I suspect polygamy is the biggest "destroyer of faith" for women, and the Book of Abraham is the biggest "destroyer of faith" for men. I've noticed this as well. For me, both of those are major issues, however if there was ever a smoking gun I'd have to say it was the BoA. My wife on the other hand could care less about the BoA and is more concerned with the church's stance on gay marriage and exclusivity claims.
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 3 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Well we don't have the gold plates to translate so we can't discredit the Book of Mormon, but people have translated the fascimilies and claimed it was a funery document. No proof that Book of Mormon wasn't real. The purpose of scriptures are to change your attitude about life. Their "historicity" or whether or not they are about "real events" is immaterial unless for some reason you think they have to be. That belief itself is a religious belief Some must believe that they derive from real events that actually happened- but those events can never be verified. That Jesus was the Son of God can never be verified by evidence. The belief in the Atonement as a "real event" may be necessary but that is in itself is a religious belief. It is a religious belief in itself that the Atonement "really happened". It cannot be proven historically. Even if we went back in a time machine and videoed the whole crucifixion etc it would not prove that that event redeemed us from our sins. So ultimately it is about the effect the belief has in your life. It cannot be about history- because the history is unknowable. We are assigning supernatural importance to an event which may or may not have "actually happened". So we have two layers of uncertainty- an event we cannot prove happened, having a supernatural implication which relies completely on faith. Faith is about HOPE for things unseen, not proof of things that "actually happened" It is the FAITH- the BELIEF in these events which changes your life. I have a strong testimony of the Atonement because I have seen the effects of that belief in my life. The belief itself- without evidence that it "really happened" has totally changed my life, and that in itself is it's own "proof". So does the "fact" that the BOA "does not translate" matter? What if it did? Is the manuscript "real"? Did Abraham actually write it? How could we prove that even if it DID "translate" from the Egyptian?? I believe that Joseph held that piece of papyrus in his hand and communicated directly with God or Abraham or someone and wrote what he wrote as a totally inspired document. Remember his "translation" of the Bible was plucked from thin air and it bothers no one. It makes no sense to me that the provenance of every religious manuscript on earth is tenuous in a historical context and no one cares about that except in discussing the BOA. No one cares about translations of Hindu scriptures or if they are historical, no one cares about Buddhist manuscripts, no one cares about Bahai revelations or whether or not Confucius "really said" any of his alleged sayings or how we verify if Jesus ever said anything he is supposed to have said, or how we are supposed to differentiate early Christianity from the cult of Mithras. Yet because a piece of papyrus doesn't "translate"- suddenly it becomes a federal case. Frankly I find that absurd. Religion is not about facts. Never. It is about enriching and changing your life with beliefs that change you as a human being from your toenails on up to the hair on your head. THAT is what religion is. If it doesn't change you down to your toes it isn't worth anything. It is about IDEAS that form your perspective on what is important about life, not facts. At least that is my story and I am sticking to it.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 10 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It seems people try to trash the credibility of Joseph Smith and the church over The Book of Abraham being a wrong translation of the documents. My question though is does it even matter if Joseph didn't get it right, if what he did produce is more important to us as scripture in the Pearl of Great Price? Even if it was a false translation, I don't see the church ever taking it out of canonized scripture, and it still offers us inspiration from what Joseph produced. I just don't see the big deal if he got it wrong from the literal translation, because what we got is so much better and more important. There is no evidence to indicate that the BofA is a wrong or false translation of some document. That is a frequent assertion by anti-Mormons, but it doesn't hold up under close scrutiny. See my “A Brief Assessment of the LDS Book of Abraham,” version 8 online August 18, 2014, at http://www.scribd.com/doc/118810727/A-Brief-Assessment-of-the-LDS-Book-of-Abraham . 1
mikegriffith1 Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) The Book of Abraham is not an incorrect translation. The papyri we have now are only part of the papyri that Joseph had. He translated a different part than the part that has survived. Furthermore, Joseph got far too many things right on the facsimiles for him to have just been guessing. http://mormonchallenges.org/category/scriptures/bookofabraham/ Edited January 3, 2016 by mikegriffith1 1
JLHPROF Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 14 hours ago, cinepro said: I suspect polygamy is the biggest "destroyer of faith" for women, and the Book of Abraham is the biggest "destroyer of faith" for men. One causes us to have to get over our feelings, the other causes us to doubt fact. Emotion and reason both getting tested. God will teach us faith no matter what it takes. We will be tried in all things. And if we aren't tried in all things our faith may not produce the salvation we hope for. 1
Sanpitch Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: One causes us to have to get over our feelings, the other causes us to doubt fact. Emotion and reason both getting tested. God will teach us faith no matter what it takes. We will be tried in all things. And if we aren't tried in all things our faith may not produce the salvation we hope for. To us sceptics it seems there might be a little issue of blind faith and credulity without some good supporting facts. Lots of people feel they have a strong faith that can't be shaken and they're not LDS.
Thinking Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 23 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I just don't see the big deal if he got it wrong from the literal translation, because what we got is so much better and more important. If what you got is wrong, how can it be so much better and more important?
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Sanpitch said: To us sceptics it seems there might be a little issue of blind faith and credulity without some good supporting facts. Lots of people feel they have a strong faith that can't be shaken and they're not LDS. What facts would prove that a man dying on a cross takes away your sins?? To me the assertion that that is even possible- for some "fact" to prove that- is absurd. But I know you will not answer, because there is no answer.
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