The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: As you know I meant that religious truth cannot be known except through the spirit and the truth we construct through inspiration. unless you can tell us how much God weighs since religious truth for you, is apparently objective. How did you get him on a scale, and was it based on earth's gravity? I understand his location in the universe is a little difficult to find- what kind of vehicle did you use to get there? How many light years did it take? How does one verify objective truth claims about God? It was Kolob's gravity and man that place is sweltering this time of year. God weighs about 200,000 tons but is planning to lose some weight before the Second Coming. I got there on a starship. And they questioned why God would need a starship....... One verifies them by arriving in the presence of God.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: It was Kolob's gravity and man that place is sweltering this time of year. God weighs about 200,000 tons but is planning to lose some weight before the Second Coming. I got there on a starship. And they questioned why God would need a starship....... One verifies them by arriving in the presence of God. I knew he had to be one Heavy Dude!
Ahab Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 I believe God influences everything in some way every moment of every day. Should I call that a miracle, or a state in which miracles are happening all of the time? I dunno. Miracle may not be the technically correct term for what I am talking about but I will still acknowledge God's hand in all things. Or maybe not his hand, but involved in some way.
TheSkepticChristian Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You can spend your life trying to use a method that doesn't work or one which has brought peace to billions of people since the dawn of time, and that is essentially following what their heart tells them. I don't know if cryonics is going to work or not. 3 hours ago, Freedom said: Sounds to me like you have never felt the power of the holy ghost, or perhaps did not recognize it. You are seeking a revelatory experience. I though I recognized it in the past, but now I am not so sure. Please tell me how. What does it feel like?
Calm Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Have you felt love? Could you describe it to someone who hasn't felt it so that they would know how exactly it felt and not just sort of how it felt? 1
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 3 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I don't know if cryonics is going to work or not. I though I recognized it in the past, but now I am not so sure. Please tell me how. What does it feel like? If you cured cancer, how would it feel? If you ran over a child how would it feel? Like the first one and definitely not like the second. But surely you know what makes you happy and how that feels. You know how it feels to do something wrong, and you know when something feels "right". You help an old lady across the street, or someone shows genuine gratitude for your service. You know how it feels to wake up when you will have a great fun day- a trip to a wonderful place and you know how it feels to wake up with dread because of some terrible thing has happened or you have some some miserable job to do. Logic does not allow you to know what will happen to you after death. Cryonics will not help. Maybe you will wake up, but that question will never go away. You WILL die sometime without knowing what will happen, in one sense. If you choose the path of happiness you WILL come to know what will happen AND you will be happy. The choices are to be fearful about death or never fear it. You can have certainty within yourself that there is nothing to fear and eternal happiness ahead, if you choose to follow the path of faith. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: how can we know when God is saying something? You'll know it when he does.
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 On 12/31/2015 at 8:50 AM, CV75 said: By being grateful to Him for either. Do we give God the credit for the bad stuff as well?
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) On 12/31/2015 at 2:49 PM, The Nehor said: We are told that God is displeased if we confess not his hand in all things. I admit I wonder at that. If God wants credit for everything good that happens does that not mean he also gets the blame for everything bad that happens that cannot be attributed to human agency? Edit: Maybe blame is the wrong word. Credit for letting or making it happen? If we confess God's hand in the good things how can we not in the bad? If God is all powerful, and even if some here think the Mormon God is not omnipotent the LDS scripture and leaders teach He is, then he could prevent the bad from happening if he wanted to. If we thank God for a healing say from cancer what do we say when a 3 year old dies a painful death from cancer? If we thank God for our food and other blessings what do we say to God about the 20,000 or so children who die if starvation every hour of every day? Edited January 2, 2016 by Teancum
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 On 12/31/2015 at 4:06 PM, JLHPROF said: You don't think God EVER has any hand in who wins a sporting event? How about a political race? Does God still have any influence over who leads the nations of the earth? How about religions other than the one you follow? Does God ever influence them? I'm not prepared to assume God is hands off in any area. Sometimes he leaves us to ourselves, sometimes he makes things to unfold differently. What part of "ALL THINGS work together" cannot encompass every aspect of our lives? 1: No. Never. If God intervenes in a sporting event but does not intervene to prevent so much of the pain and suffering of others elsewhere this is a capricious God. 2: Again if God picks the leaders of the world (which the Bible seems to indicate) then he has picked some monsters that have unleashed utter horror on the world. You willing to give him credit for so many of the bad ones? 3: If God is there I hope he influences who leads the religions he sanctions. 4: Great! Then give him credit for the bad stuff as well.
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 On 12/31/2015 at 6:33 PM, Deborah said: I've always thought of coincidences as little miracles. I think we are looking for big miracles while missing all the small ones in our lives. For example. I happen to go into a cleaners at a certain time and in there is a woman who just starts talking to me about going through a divorce and she didn't know what she would do. I tell her I have been through that and she can get through it and it does get better. I could see her stress lift a little and she thanked me for talking to her. Just a coincidence? Years before I was going through some really tough times with one of my sons. I was in the laundromat and sat next to this woman who started talking to me about children and the words she said were an answer to a prayer. Just a coincidence? How many of these tender mercies can we think of which were perhaps more than coincidences. Yet God let's 20,000 children starve to death every hour of every day. Tender mercies indeed......
CV75 Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 33 minutes ago, Teancum said: Do we give God the credit for the bad stuff as well? I don't know what you mean by credit, but some see the big picture and are grateful: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-3-adversity-part-of-gods-plan-for-our-eternal-progress?lang=eng “When [the difficulties of mortality] humble us and refine us and teach us and bless us, they can be powerful instruments in the hands of God to make us better people, to make us more grateful, more loving, and more considerate of other people in their own times of difficulty. “Yes, we all have difficult moments, individually and collectively, but even in the most severe of times, anciently or in modern times, those problems and prophecies were never intended to do anything but bless the righteous and help those who are less righteous move toward repentance. God loves us, and the scriptures tell us he “gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” [John 3:16].”
CV75 Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 27 minutes ago, Teancum said: If we confess God's hand in the good things how can we not in the bad? “And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.” (D&C 59:22)
JLHPROF Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Teancum said: 4: Great! Then give him credit for the bad stuff as well. Really? I don't recall a scripture that says all things work together for our bad. God is the source of all good. Man and the adversary bring about the evil. If we think God is bringing about the bad we are not understanding the difference between good and bad.
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 58 minutes ago, CV75 said: I don't know what you mean by credit, but some see the big picture and are grateful: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-3-adversity-part-of-gods-plan-for-our-eternal-progress?lang=eng “When [the difficulties of mortality] humble us and refine us and teach us and bless us, they can be powerful instruments in the hands of God to make us better people, to make us more grateful, more loving, and more considerate of other people in their own times of difficulty. “Yes, we all have difficult moments, individually and collectively, but even in the most severe of times, anciently or in modern times, those problems and prophecies were never intended to do anything but bless the righteous and help those who are less righteous move toward repentance. God loves us, and the scriptures tell us he “gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” [John 3:16].” So 20,000 children who die of starvation every hour of every day refine us and teach us and bless us? These things bless the righteous and help us move us towards repentence? A five year old who is kidnapped, sexually abused and murdered teaches us and blesses us and/or the five year old exactly how?
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 58 minutes ago, CV75 said: “And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.” (D&C 59:22) So....???
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Really? I don't recall a scripture that says all things work together for our bad. God is the source of all good. Man and the adversary bring about the evil. If we think God is bringing about the bad we are not understanding the difference between good and bad. So God gets credit for the good and man and the devil for the bad. How convenient.
Deborah Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 59 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yet God let's 20,000 children starve to death every hour of every day. Tender mercies indeed...... But who is it that is causing children in those countries starve? It is the evil men surrounding them. And yet good people go to succor them and they are moved on by the Spirit. How do you know the suffering which is temporary isn't their spirits' trial for this life. I just read Alma 14 which says as the women and children were being burned: Quote 10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames. 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day. God sees the bigger picture and those here who can't see it will not be able to understand suffering is part of the mortal experience not so much for our bodies but our spirits.
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Deborah said: But who is it that is causing children in those countries starve? It is the evil men surrounding them. And yet good people go to succor them and they are moved on by the Spirit. How do you know the suffering which is temporary isn't their spirits' trial for this life. I just read Alma 14 which says as the women and children were being burned: God sees the bigger picture and those here who can't see it will not be able to understand suffering is part of the mortal experience not so much for our bodies but our spirits. 1: Sometimes they starve because of evil people. Sometimes they starve because of where they were born. 2: Any God that would starve a child in order to give that child a trial is a monstrous God and I would tell such a God that and be happy not to spend eternity with such a God. 3: It is easy to say God sees the bigger picture when perhaps we have not been subjected to some of the things others have to endure. Of course I will qualify this this be saying I have no idea what you have personally been called to endure.
smac97 Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Teancum said: Yet God let's 20,000 children starve to death every hour of every day. Tender mercies indeed...... 20,000 children starve to death "every hour of every day?" That would be: 20,000 X 24 = 480,000 per day. Per year that works out to 175,200,000, or 1.75 billion per decade. Meanwhile, good faith statements on this very important issue indicate that "undernutrition in the aggregate—including fetal growth restriction, stunting, wasting, and deficiencies of vitamin A and zinc along with suboptimum breastfeeding—is a cause of 3.1 million child deaths annually or 45% of all child deaths in 2011." That works out to about 354 per hour. But even this good faith number is open to quite a bit of interpretation and criticism (emphases added): Quote There is enough food for everyone, but not everyone has enough food, says the Enough Food for Everyone If campaign. "In every minute of every day, four children die of hunger," intones the comedian Eddie Izzard in one of If's promotional videos, before the 15-second figure was updated to 10 seconds on 6 June. The stat is a variation on another, used seven years ago in the Make Poverty History campaign - when a host of celebrities from the world of music, cinema and fashion appeared on a video clicking their fingers at regular intervals. Then the message was that a child dies unnecessarily as a result of extreme poverty every three seconds. Stats about deaths occurring every few seconds have been around for years. This latest, the 10-second one, is based on a figure from a very reputable source - The Lancet, an internationally renowned journal which recently published a paper saying that more than three million children died of undernutrition in 2011. To get their attention-grabbing statistic, the If campaign managers have divided the number of seconds in a year by that number - three million. It resonates with people more than the three million figure itself, according to If spokesman Jack Lundie. "Large figures are notoriously difficult to visualise and imagine, especially when you get into millions," he says. "Also we want to focus on the individual, and these expressions help to humanise a problem. So we need a short, accessible phrase that in a short period of time will convey both the emotional impact of the problem that we're addressing, but also give that sense of scale and urgency that will precipitate some kind of action." But another major group that tackles food problems around the world, the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP), now disapproves of this tactic. "There's a real temptation to use those kinds of statistics because they really do grab the headlines - you can't ignore that because it's such a horrifying image," says Jane Howard, from the WFP. But, she says, it is "a bit misleading". The WFP itself once used to claim that a child died of hunger every six seconds, but stopped using this slogan around 2008. The numbers can change from year to year, Howard points out, depending on the latest research, "and it gets very confusing because the old figures end up lying around on the internet". And more importantly, she argues, "the science is actually saying something quite different". So what is the science saying? Well, if, to you, the claim that one child is dying every 10 seconds because of hunger conjures up images of starving children, you might be surprised. In most cases, that's not what's happening. "There are certainly extreme circumstances where children starve to death - and I'm thinking of the recent famine in parts of Somalia," Howard says. "But the truth is that the vast majority of those numbers that we're talking about, are children who, because they haven't had the right nutrition in the very earliest parts of their lives, are really very susceptible to infectious diseases, like measles. "A child that's had good nutrition would just shrug it off, but for a child that's really fragile and has a compromised immune system it becomes really life threatening." The If campaign highlights an important issue, but is it wrong to use the word "hunger" if it might inaccurately suggest children are starving to death? "I could understand if members of the public made that inference, and that would be mistaken," Lundie says. "We're not saying that children in this particular instance are starving to death, and we explain exactly how it works. But I think the term 'hunger' is something that people relate to." The fact that poor nutrition is identified as an underlying cause of death means that there's also some double counting going on. When you hear that one child dies every few seconds from water-related diseases, for example- or from poverty - some of these children will be the same ones that are said to be dying every few seconds from hunger. Another surprise is to discover who these children are and that they are often not even, as the adverts sometimes put it, "going to bed hungry". Most of the nutrition-related deaths are in countries that are not suffering from famine or conflict, according to Professor Robert Black of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in the United States, who calculated the three million figure that the 10-seconds statistic is based on. "These are not the poorest countries in the world. They are countries such as India or Nigeria or many other countries in Asia or Africa that really could do better - that have the resources to feed children within the country. "Certainly the poorest have the greatest problems with undernutrition, but even then there might be sufficient food to feed children. The difficulty is achieving a high enough quality diet - a diet that is dominated by cereals or starches would not be a high enough quality diet to achieve the nutrition that's needed in the first two years of life." In most cases, the problem could be resolved through nutrition education, Black says. In some cultures, women don't get to eat the best food in the household, which can mean children are born underweight. Milk and meat may also be avoided for cultural reasons, as they are in parts of India for example. And sometimes it's just not fully appreciated how important fruit and vegetables are. A quarter of the deaths can be attributed to inadequate breast-feeding, Professor Black estimates, -with many families not realising that, up to six months of age, babies need to be exclusively fed on breast milk for the nutrients it provides, but also because it protects them from exposure to contaminated food. So there's a much more complicated picture than the headline statistic - that one child dies every 10 seconds because of hunger - suggests. But you have to simplify a message if you are to get people's attention, according to Jack Lundie. "Yes, it may be that in what we would call our top-line messaging you don't get all the information about the entire problem, but I don't think it would be realistic to expect that to happen from a very short piece of communication." "In terms of creating a conversation in which people can be informed, you first have to get their attention - their emotional attention. People are very busy so you need an instantly accessible understanding to open a conversation." Poor nutrition is a serious problem - the three million children who are thought to have died because of it in 2011 represent almost half of all infant deaths. But there are signs of progress. "There's been a decrease in the number of excess deaths - not a very large decrease - but still some improvement since we last studied this [in 2008], and the attention given to these issues of nutrition in low- and middle-income countries has really increased remarkably in the last five years," says Prof Black. "I'm very optimistic that the world is now paying attention to the problems and will find the solutions." I have a brother who works for the LDS Church in implementing various initiatives pertaining to nutrition and health. Clean water. Personal hygiene and hygienic food preparation techniques. "Bishops' gardens" (local wards allocating portions of church building grounds for growing fresh fruits and vegetables). Improving aspects of administering the Perpetual Education Fund. Educating people in less developed areas about all of the foregoing. His first-hand observations are essentially identical to the points raised in the foregoing article, namely, that A) poor nutrition during a child's formative years (0-2) does tremendous - and in some ways and circumstances irreversible - damage to their health, and B) the problem is not the lack of food, but the lack of awareness of and education about basic principles of nutrition (and clean water, and clean food preparation, etc.) and C) also an ineffective or absent socio-political infrastructure in many areas to provide for distribution of food, economic resources, etc. D&C 104:17 states that "For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves." My sense is that the part of this equation that leads to children suffering from malnutrition is not God, but rather is situations where His children have enough "and to spare" but simply lack to desire or will to share it with those most in need. "Agents unto themselves," as it were. But hey! Don't let me get in the way of you fabricating data and exploiting the deaths of children so that you can get in a cheap shot against God and the LDS Church. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 2, 2016 by smac97
JLHPROF Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, Teancum said: So God gets credit for the good and man and the devil for the bad. How convenient. No, how logical. The source of all good gets credit for the good. Fallen beings get the credit for the bad. Why would it be any other way?
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, smac97 said: 20,000 children starve to death "every hour of every day?" That would be: 20,000 X 24 = 480,000 per day. Per year that works out to 175,200,000, or 1.75 billion per decade. Meanwhile, good faith statements on this very important issue indicate that "undernutrition in the aggregate—including fetal growth restriction, stunting, wasting, and deficiencies of vitamin A and zinc along with suboptimum breastfeeding—is a cause of 3.1 million child deaths annually or 45% of all child deaths in 2011." That works out to about 354 per hour. But even this good faith number is open to quite a bit of interpretation and criticism (emphases added): I have a brother who works for the LDS Church in implementing various initiatives pertaining to nutrition and health. Clean water. Personal hygiene and hygienic food preparation techniques. "Bishops' gardens" (local wards allocating portions of church building grounds for growing fresh fruits and vegetables). Improving aspects of administering the Perpetual Education Fund. Educating people in less developed areas about all of the foregoing. His first-hand observations are essentially identical to the points raised in the foregoing article, namely, that A) poor nutrition during a child's formative years (0-2) does tremendous - and in some ways and circumstances irreversible - damage to their health, and B) the problem is not the lack of food, but the lack of awareness of and education about basic principles of nutrition (and clean water, and clean food preparation, etc.) and C) also an ineffective or absent socio-political infrastructure in many areas to provide for distribution of food, economic resources, etc. D&C 104:17 states that "For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves." My sense is that the part of this equation that leads to children suffering from malnutrition is not God, but rather is situations where His children have enough "and to spare" but simply lack to desire or will to share it with those most in need. "Agents unto themselves," as it were. But hey! Don't let me get in the way of you fabricating data and exploiting the deaths of children so that you can get in a cheap shot against God and the LDS Church. Thanks, -Smac Ok I did some leg work on this and yes it is overstated. So here are my comments: 1: I overstated it. 2: Children to starve for lack of food that they have access to as do adults. No question about it. Water issues are the same. 3: I took no stab at the LDS Church. I did at a God who allegedly created us and this world in which we live. But personally I do have questions about God and pain and evil and suffering which is certainly emmense in the world. If you simply pass it off as due to agency then you have not thought much about the randomness of pain and suffering in things that have nothing to do with agency and the choice of others. Nor have you thought much about why agency should be paramount even if it eliminates the agency of others. 4: Yes personally I agree that there is enough resources in the world to prevent starvation, lack of clean water and medical care and that more often than not. 5: My comments are not cheap shots. They are things I think about almost every day. But if it help you to call is as such more power to you.
CV75 Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 42 minutes ago, Teancum said: So 20,000 children who die of starvation every hour of every day refine us and teach us and bless us? These things bless the righteous and help us move us towards repentence? A five year old who is kidnapped, sexually abused and murdered teaches us and blesses us and/or the five year old exactly how? The answers to these questions can be obtained by applying the principles taught in the link I provided. With the Lord's help, whatever adversity you face can refine, teach and thus bless you and you will in turn be able to help those who also suffer as you receive commandments not a few and revelations in their time (D&C 59:4). 47 minutes ago, Teancum said: So....??? When you confess God's hand in all things and obey His commandments, all things work together for your good. This is also from D&C 59. Romans 8: 28, And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. D&C 90: 24, Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and call things shall work together for your good, if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith ye have covenanted one with another. D&C 98: 3, Therefore, he giveth this promise unto you, with an immutable covenant that they shall be fulfilled; and all things wherewith you have been afflicted shall work together for your good, and to my name’s glory, saith the Lord. D&C 100: 15, Therefore, let your hearts be comforted; for all things shall work together for good to them that walk uprightly, and to the sanctification of the church. D&C 105: 40, And make proposals for peace unto those who have smitten you, according to the voice of the Spirit which is in you, and all things shall work together for your good.
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 46 minutes ago, smac97 said: 20,000 children starve to death "every hour of every day?" That would be: 20,000 X 24 = 480,000 per day. Per year that works out to 175,200,000, or 1.75 billion per decade. Meanwhile, good faith statements on this very important issue indicate that "undernutrition in the aggregate—including fetal growth restriction, stunting, wasting, and deficiencies of vitamin A and zinc along with suboptimum breastfeeding—is a cause of 3.1 million child deaths annually or 45% of all child deaths in 2011." That works out to about 354 per hour. But even this good faith number is open to quite a bit of interpretation and criticism (emphases added): I have a brother who works for the LDS Church in implementing various initiatives pertaining to nutrition and health. Clean water. Personal hygiene and hygienic food preparation techniques. "Bishops' gardens" (local wards allocating portions of church building grounds for growing fresh fruits and vegetables). Improving aspects of administering the Perpetual Education Fund. Educating people in less developed areas about all of the foregoing. His first-hand observations are essentially identical to the points raised in the foregoing article, namely, that A) poor nutrition during a child's formative years (0-2) does tremendous - and in some ways and circumstances irreversible - damage to their health, and B) the problem is not the lack of food, but the lack of awareness of and education about basic principles of nutrition (and clean water, and clean food preparation, etc.) and C) also an ineffective or absent socio-political infrastructure in many areas to provide for distribution of food, economic resources, etc. D&C 104:17 states that "For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves." My sense is that the part of this equation that leads to children suffering from malnutrition is not God, but rather is situations where His children have enough "and to spare" but simply lack to desire or will to share it with those most in need. "Agents unto themselves," as it were. But hey! Don't let me get in the way of you fabricating data and exploiting the deaths of children so that you can get in a cheap shot against God and the LDS Church. Thanks, -Smac Other stats for Smac: https://www.wfp.org/hunger/stats
smac97 Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Teancum said: Ok I did some leg work on this and yes it is overstated. So here are my comments: 1: I overstated it. 2: Children to starve for lack of food that they have access to as do adults. No question about it. Water issues are the same. 3: I took no stab at the LDS Church. I did at a God who allegedly created us and this world in which we live. But personally I do have questions about God and pain and evil and suffering which is certainly emmense in the world. If you simply pass it off as due to agency then you have not thought much about the randomness of pain and suffering in things that have nothing to do with agency and the choice of others. Nor have you thought much about why agency should be paramount even if it eliminates the agency of others. 4: Yes personally I agree that there is enough resources in the world to prevent starvation, lack of clean water and medical care and that more often than not. 5: My comments are not cheap shots. They are things I think about almost every day. But if it help you to call is as such more power to you. First, you vastly overstated the number of children who die from malnutrition. That seemed malicious to me. You took a very serious and sobering topic, significantly distorted it, and did so for the sole purpose of maligning God, and to cast those aspersions in the faces of a board full of Latter-day Saints. That's just not cool. Second, your post dripped with cynicism about and contempt toward both God ("God let's 20,000 children starve to death every hour of every day"), and the LDS Church ("tender mercies indeed...", this phrase is much beloved by Latter-day Saints, though not exclusive to us, but which was used by a Latter-day Saint on an LDS-themed message board). You cannot ridicule our beliefs (to our faces, no less) with drive-by snideness and sarcasm about them, and then claim that you are not taking cheap shots at us and at our faith. Of course you were. You insult the intelligence of the readers of this thread by denying so obvious a point. Third, my post was nothing close to a compendium of my thoughts on the subject of human suffering. Fourth, yes, your comments were cheap shots. That you think about such things every day is nice, but that does not detract from the mean-spirited and contemptuous nature of your previous remarks. If your remarks reflect the gist of your thoughts on the I-think-about-it-every-day topic of human suffering, then I find that very sad. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 2, 2016 by smac97
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