JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 2 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I thought his church was neutral on political campaigns The Church is (laws and taxes you know). God isn't.
TheSkepticChristian Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 18 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: So you think God helps some boxers win? Didn't you know that boxing is a violent sport? Does he help the wwe wrestlers win too? 13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That depends on what course he wants their lives to follow - scripture is full of examples of God moving events in peoples lives to get them where he needs them. I have "coincidences" in my own life that I have no doubt were God. So should I pray for my favorite team to win?
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said: So should I pray for my favorite team to win? Pray for the Lords will to be done in all things. Then watch what happens. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Pray for the Lords will to be done in all things. Then watch what happens. okay, but please answer my question in post number 1.
Jeanne Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I think the main difference is "what is possible:",,(coincidence) and..what seems to be impossible..(a miracle)
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Just now, Jeanne said: I think the main difference is "what is possible:",,(coincidence) and..what seems to be impossible..(a miracle) This is generally true. But then we get from possible into probable. My wife and I meeting as we did was extremely improbable, although not impossible. I consider it a miracle we met as we did and I am sure that God had a hand in it. Those who doubt God would say "coincidence". Much too big a coincidence in my opinion. Not impossible but very improbable. 1
Ahab Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 3 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Please tell me, how can we tell God did it? Miracles happen in sports too, but we know they can't come from God. I find your lack of faith disturbing, as in it bothers me to think that you think something so obviously wrong. No miracles in sports? Why would you think something like that? And the way we can tell God did something is to say something like "God did it". No need to wave your hands in the air or something like that. Just ask God if he did something and when God tells you he did just say he did.
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 4 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: okay, but please answer my question in post number 1. There is no way to know for sure on the kinds of issues you describe. It is a mixture of reasoning and faith. On other issues it's pretty certain.
TheSkepticChristian Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: No miracles in sports? you also believe God helps teams win? Did he help the Patriots team win? 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: There is no way to know for sure on the kinds of issues you describe. It is a mixture of reasoning and faith. okay, but I am looking for an answer.
TheSkepticChristian Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 1 hour ago, smac97 said: I'm inclined to think that God "influences" more than "intervenes" in many (most?) things. Consider these remarks attributed to President David O. McKay: I am not sure that God "intervenes" to let one sports team be victorious, though he may have "influenced" individuals on the team to live a virtuous and healthy life, which may have an impact on the end result of the contest. I am not really persuaded that God "intervenes" in things like lotteries, particularly given His Church's stance on gambling. I am not really persuaded that God "intervened" so that a park ranger was struck by lightning seven times. Don't get me wrong, I am a big advocate of God having a significant role in our lives. But that role is necessarily circumscribed in many ways by His give of Agency. Moreover, I think God is more interested in the means we use to achieve things in life, rather than in the things themselves. Hence I am more inclined to think that God often influences our means, rather than intervenes to determine our ends. Thanks, -Smac finally someone that doesn't believe God helps sports teams win. However, how do you answer my question in post 1#?
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: You probably can't. Again I agree with you, Nehor! Most problematic from my point of view is when there is some kind of catastrophe were multiple people are killed and the ones who escape claim God protected them.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 4 hours ago, Walden said: I tend to find that believers consider it a miracle if a coincidence bolsters their faith perspective, and just a mere coincidence if it conflicts with or fails to strengthen their faith perspective. As an atheist-leaning agnostic, I side with coincidence. I think that the interpretation of coincidence as miracle is a product of the strong propensity of the human mind, in it's lifelong pursuit of assigning order to a confusing world, to give that coincidence meaning or significance, when sometimes, weird or unexplained stuff just happens. Sherlock Holmes once famously claimed, "I don't believe in coincidence!" It took me a while before I realized he said it in the one story where the solution to the crime was actually caused by a coincidence.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: How about a political race? Does God still have any influence over who leads the nations of the earth? God is a Democrat?
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 6 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: finally someone that doesn't believe God helps sports teams win. However, how do you answer my question in post 1#? I don't believe God "helps sports teams win". I absolutely do believe God has paths he wants those team members to follow in life, and sometimes that involves helping them succeed or allowing them to fail. Make of that what you will. 1
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Just now, consiglieri said: God is a Democrat? Oh, I hope not.
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 53 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I thought his church was neutral on political campaigns I guess God didn't want Joseph Smith to be President. 1
consiglieri Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Oh, I hope not. I just thought it likely if God is swinging elections.
Ahab Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Miracles in sports aren't necessarily limited to God influencing a team to win. I think it's a miracle when people in sports have moments when God gives them a good idea, and that more people in rough sports like football aren't injured as seriously as they otherwise could be. I define a miracle as anything that is influenced by God, including when people are influenced by God to do a good thing. They're not rare events. Miracles are happening pretty much constantly to everybody every day.
Jeanne Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: 38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: This is generally true. But then we get from possible into probable. My wife and I meeting as we did was extremely improbable, although not impossible. I consider it a miracle we met as we did and I am sure that God had a hand in it. Those who doubt God would say "coincidence". Much too big a coincidence in my opinion. Not impossible but very improbable. This is generally true. But then we get from possible into probable. My wife and I meeting as we did was extremely improbable, although not impossible. I consider it a miracle we met as we did and I am sure that God had a hand in it. Those who doubt God would say "coincidence". Much too big a coincidence in my opinion. Not impossible but very improbable. I think the main difference is "what is possible:",,but it is hard to tell the difference when it is your own personal experience. There have been instances where I believe my deceased husband has a hand in things.. 1
Jeanne Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 11 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I just thought it likely if God is swinging elections. Kind of a miracle where Trump sits right now... 1
JLHPROF Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 20 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I guess God didn't want Joseph Smith to be President. If he did he had a funny way of showing it, what with the martyrdom and all. It wasn't God's plan for his prophet. But the union of Church and state will arrive one day...
CA Steve Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I think the main difference is "what is possible:",,(coincidence) and..what seems to be impossible..(a miracle) And there in lies the problem. Most of us vastly underestimate what seems impossible and when it happens we look on it as divine intervention. A good example of this can be seen in the chance that two people out of a group share a common birthday. Ask yourself "how many people need to be in a group for the chance that any two of them share a birthday"? The answer will surprise most. A group of 23 is all that is needed for a 50% chance for any two of them share a common birthday and in a group of 70 it is almost a certainty (99.9% chance). As with what goes on in life, birthday coincidences happen all the time. Why? Well when we encounter someone with a common birthday attention is drawn to that event. "Hey look! We were born on the same day! It's a miracle" What we do not consider is that we had already met many people in between the time we last ran into someone who shared our birthday. and in those encounters we had a chance to find someone who shared our special day. So one event where something special happens is noticed, but the thousands of everyday events that occurred right before are not. Edited December 31, 2015 by CA Steve
Deborah Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I've always thought of coincidences as little miracles. I think we are looking for big miracles while missing all the small ones in our lives. For example. I happen to go into a cleaners at a certain time and in there is a woman who just starts talking to me about going through a divorce and she didn't know what she would do. I tell her I have been through that and she can get through it and it does get better. I could see her stress lift a little and she thanked me for talking to her. Just a coincidence? Years before I was going through some really tough times with one of my sons. I was in the laundromat and sat next to this woman who started talking to me about children and the words she said were an answer to a prayer. Just a coincidence? How many of these tender mercies can we think of which were perhaps more than coincidences. 2
Thinking Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 The more unlikely an event is, the more miraculous it seems when the event does happen. With over 7 billion people in the world, it's not surprising that some extremely unlikely events happen. In fact, it would be more unlikely that no extremely unlikely events happen than some extremely unlikely events do happen. That said, if an unlikely event provides evidence that the LDS Church is true, then it is a miracle. Otherwise it's just coincidence. At least that's what I learned from all the fast and testimony meetings I attended.
mfbukowski Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 51 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Sherlock Holmes once famously claimed, "I don't believe in coincidence!" It took me a while before I realized he said it in the one story where the solution to the crime was actually caused by a coincidence. How do you know it was "actually"? In the story "actually", really "actually" or fictitiously actually but really a miracle? I am just getting to how one could possibly decide this question. I think there is nothing to it. Miracles and coincidences are in the eye of the beholder. What an absurd idea that one could tell the difference!! 1
Recommended Posts