mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Teancum said: If we confess God's hand in the good things how can we not in the bad? If God is all powerful, and even if some here think the Mormon God is not omnipotent the LDS scripture and leaders teach He is, then he could prevent the bad from happening if he wanted to. If we thank God for a healing say from cancer what do we say when a 3 year old dies a painful death from cancer? If we thank God for our food and other blessings what do we say to God about the 20,000 or so children who die if starvation every hour of every day? We have to understand that religion is about our personal interior state. It is about our attitude toward the world. Are you personally grateful for life and the opportunities to ask these questions? Are you personally grateful that you have a mind to ponder these things? What can you FIND in your life to change your attitude and be "grateful" to the universe for this grand adventure you are experiencing? We might say that "We came to this earth to receive a body and now we have a veil of forgetfulness... " etc etc, but I see that as wonder and "gratitude" just for the opportunity to contemplate these "questions" we manufacture and to seek our own deep selves in coming up with the answers. Or we can say that we "seek the spirit for God to teach us spiritual truth". To me that is the same thing. So what works for me is that religion is about my attitude toward these horrible events which happen. Bad attitude leads to stress, mental illness and death. Good attitude leads toward happiness and life. Pessimism is a killer. The Didache speaks of the "Way of Life" and the "Way of Death". Way of life = following the commandments, being good to people, understanding that there is more to life than meets the eye, = "Good Attitude". Way of death= the opposite Good attitude for me = good religion, way of seeing my place in the universe. That is what religion is. So my advice is forget about the symbols put into words the way you have done it above. Don't blame it on God- blame the question on your attitude toward God/The Universe. Yes bad things happen. No good without the bad. Good attitude no matter what happens. I mostly wrote this for you personally- no one else may understand it but I think you will. Religion = attitude, not "facts". Science does not change my attitude- religion does. Science is about "facts" that last a few years- but your attitude is "Eternal" at least as far as you are concerned. You will never know anything more than your attitude toward life. THAT is "absolute truth". You form your attitude toward life and it is there with you forever- whatever that entails in "reality" - in the unknowable future. And that is the answer to the op in my opinion. Miracle or coincidence? You cannot find that answer in scientific observation- the answer is in your chosen attitude toward life. You choose the way you want to see it. Edited January 2, 2016 by mfbukowski 3
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 In secular language: Choosing a religion is about choosing the set of beliefs which resonate most deeply within yourself, understanding that these beliefs are just that- constructions which give you the best attitude toward life. I personally think that the beliefs of Mormonism give my life meaning and give me the best attitude and understanding of my place in the universe and my human potential. These beliefs resonate deeply within me and are life-changing. Yes, you can "pray and receive spiritual confirmation" but to me that is the same thing in a different language. It is German vs English. So I don't sweat the grammar. The "grammar" - semantics- is what the OP is about. In Secular, we call it a "coincidence" and in Religious we call it a "miracle". Same idea in a different language, in a different context, in a different way of seeing the world. No more "conflict" than there would be between saying it in German or English. 2
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Teancum said: If we confess God's hand in the good things how can we not in the bad? If God is all powerful, and even if some here think the Mormon God is not omnipotent the LDS scripture and leaders teach He is, then he could prevent the bad from happening if he wanted to. If we thank God for a healing say from cancer what do we say when a 3 year old dies a painful death from cancer? If we thank God for our food and other blessings what do we say to God about the 20,000 or so children who die if starvation every hour of every day? What we say is: "Thy will be done and the glory be thine forever." It is just not a lot of fun here. There are lessons learned in pain. I can just pray I do not need a lot of them but my prayer is likely in vain. 1
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Yet God let's 20,000 children starve to death every hour of every day. Tender mercies indeed...... Actually I think that is a tender mercy. They are out and it is all over. We are still here and ready for more suffering.
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Teancum said: So God gets credit for the good and man and the devil for the bad. How convenient. Nope, they are not equal opposites. God could throw out the devil and the devil does not have the power to do what God does. God could prevent all pain (which is what I assume you mean by bad) not caused by human agency (admittedly that is a lot of it) but does not.
TheSkepticChristian Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 17 hours ago, Calm said: Have you felt love? Could you describe it to someone who hasn't felt it so that they would know how exactly it felt and not just sort of how it felt? I told a lot of people the same thing. I used the sugar example. However, I myself did not feel anything extraordinary. The human brain is powerful, The Neuroscience of Religious Experience by neuroscientist Patrick McNamara. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521889588/ref=as_li_tf_il?ie=UTF8&tag=handhabi-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=052188958 but I am optimistic. Perhaps someday God will give me a clear answer.
cinepro Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) On 12/31/2015 at 1:39 AM, TheSkepticChristian said: Coincidences and rare events happen every day, all the time. So my question is, how can I tell the difference between a miracle from God and coincidence? Sometimes people do confuse coincidences with miracles, and I think that is unfortunate, so I developed a six-step method to reduce the confusion. I recommend everyone give it a try, and see if you find more miracles occurring in your life: Quote Often times in Church, we discuss miracles. Some have expressed disappointment about a lack of miracles in their lives, when others seem to be doubly blessed in this regard. I therefore offer everyone this easy, six step program to increase the incidence of miracles in your life. As you find more and more miracles in your life, remember to share these experiences with fellow Church members, that they may be strengthened as well. The six-step program is as follows: 1) Learn as little as possible about statistics and probability. 2) Learn as little as possible about the natural causes of things. Don’t study pathology, epidemiology, physics, engineering, history, or any other field that may promote a scientific, skeptical, or natural world-view. If you don’t know about physics, who’s to say cannonballs don’t float on the wings of angels? 3 ) Whenever you encounter something unusual and for which the cause isn’t clear, make up an explanation that fits your religious worldview (RW) and supports your particular view of God and His doings. 4) Search for secondhand (or thirdhand, fourth-hand, fifth-hand etc.) accounts of miracles that support your RW. Take them at face value, and use them to support your belief without question. Assume that all accounts that appear to describe “miracles” in religious literature are accurately and literally reported, if they support your RW. If they don’t support your RW, ignore or doubt them. 5) If someone does something that is unusual and of mysterious origin, and they offer an explanation that supports your RW, take it at face value. There’s no harm in trusting someone who means well. 6) As you find an increase in miracles in your life, find others who share your RW and share your experience with them. Publish your story in magazines and websites that cater to such people. Remember, they wouldn’t publish it if it weren’t true. When you share the story, be sure to speak slowly, with a low voice. Stare at the person or audience. Try and muster a tear, but don’t sob uncontrollably. Maybe make videos and movies about such events. If you can decrease your ability to understand and explain things, and increase your ability to ascribe a religious and/or supernatural origin to these same events, you’re on your way to increasing the frequency of the occurrence of miracles in your life. Millions of people have followed my program with success, with satisfied customers in every dispensation and every continent. Try it today! Edited January 2, 2016 by cinepro
Jeanne Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Teancum said: 1: Sometimes they starve because of evil people. Sometimes they starve because of where they were born. 2: Any God that would starve a child in order to give that child a trial is a monstrous God and I would tell such a God that and be happy not to spend eternity with such a God. 3: It is easy to say God sees the bigger picture when perhaps we have not been subjected to some of the things others have to endure. Of course I will qualify this this be saying I have no idea what you have personally been called to endure. Hey..I agree..but you know...if He can find my keys!?? Imagine reaching Celestial Glory..having spirit children knowing they will suffer because you have a greater plan. Edited January 2, 2016 by Jeanne
TheSkepticChristian Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Deborah said: But who is it that is causing children in those countries starve? It is the evil men surrounding them. and who is giving the American children a nice and comfortable life? The good men surrounding them? Edited January 2, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 5 hours ago, Teancum said: 1: Sometimes they starve because of evil people. Sometimes they starve because of where they were born. 2: Any God that would starve a child in order to give that child a trial is a monstrous God and I would tell such a God that and be happy not to spend eternity with such a God. 3: It is easy to say God sees the bigger picture when perhaps we have not been subjected to some of the things others have to endure. Of course I will qualify this this be saying I have no idea what you have personally been called to endure. 1. Kind of true. Realistically donations to humanitarian organizations could probably remove hunger if there were not people in said area that benefited from the hunger. 2. I disagree. This is sentimentality. Does a child who dies of hunger suffer more then a child or anyone else dying of cancer? We have to get out of this life somehow and most of those ways are not enjoyable. We have an inbuilt revulsion to children suffering and we should act to prevent such suffering but this does not make a 4 year old's suffering worse then that of the elderly or anyone else. 3. Yes, it is easy. That does not make it wrong. I know I took suffering lightly until I was afflicted with kidney stones and experienced pain so intense I was worried it would not kill me. Others have, of course, suffered worse. 2
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 5 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I told a lot of people the same thing. I used the sugar example. However, I myself did not feel anything extraordinary. The human brain is powerful, The Neuroscience of Religious Experience by neuroscientist Patrick McNamara. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521889588/ref=as_li_tf_il?ie=UTF8&tag=handhabi-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=052188958 but I am optimistic. Perhaps someday God will give me a clear answer. What about the neuroscience of scientific observations? Does that prove that science is all in our minds? I should hope so! Should religious experience not leave a neuroscientific trail? Why not?
salgare Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 On 12/31/2015 at 0:46 PM, The Nehor said: When did God announce a hands off policy in regards to sports? Church Basketball!
salgare Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 4 hours ago, cinepro said: Sometimes people do confuse coincidences with miracles, and I think that is unfortunate, so I developed a six-step method to reduce the confusion. I recommend everyone give it a try, and see if you find more miracles occurring in your life: ouch
salgare Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) On 12/31/2015 at 4:18 PM, Jeanne said: I think the main difference is "what is possible:",,but it is hard to tell the difference when it is your own personal experience. There have been instances where I believe my deceased husband has a hand in things.. Of course he does, and I'd suggest "a still small voice" as in one of a few possible ones, is often a passed loved one. Edited January 3, 2016 by salgare
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) deleted- wrong thread Edited January 3, 2016 by mfbukowski
salgare Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The purpose of scriptures are to change your attitude about life. ... Was this intended for the BoA thread?
Deborah Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 7 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: and who is giving the American children a nice and comfortable life? The good men surrounding them? Well, yes. The good men who sacrificed their own lives and fortunes to create this country, The good men who have shed blood to maintain the freedoms which allow us to prosper. The good men and women who create the jobs that allow parents to care for their families.
mfbukowski Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 1 hour ago, salgare said: Was this intended for the BoA thread? Yup - thanks for pointing it out.
The Nehor Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 On 1/3/2016 at 8:53 PM, salgare said: Church Basketball! He might still smite everyone for playing like that.
TheSkepticChristian Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 On 1/3/2016 at 10:52 PM, Deborah said: Well, yes. The good men who sacrificed their own lives and fortunes to create this country, Good men or God?
Deborah Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 8 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Good men or God? Good men who are willing to listen to the spirit of God rather than the spirit of Satan.
TheSkepticChristian Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 2 hours ago, Deborah said: Good men who are willing to listen to the spirit of God rather than the spirit of Satan. So the miracles by God always depend on the decisions of others?
Deborah Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 5 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: So the miracles by God always depend on the decisions of others? Good grief. What is your point. God often works miracles through men and women who listen to the spirit. 2
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