How can we tell the difference between miracle and coincidence?

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Walden said:

 I think that the interpretation of coincidence as miracle is a product of the strong propensity of the human mind, in it's lifelong pursuit of assigning order to a confusing world, to give that coincidence meaning or significance, when sometimes, weird or unexplained stuff just happens.

It just keeps amazing me how you can understand that there is a "strong propensity of the human mind, in it's lifelong pursuit of assigning order to a confusing world, to give that coincidence meaning or significance" when that is precisely what "science" is and is doing as well

I find it astounding that you would not see that, nor anyone else would not see that.

We CREATE the world AS WE KNOW IT precisely BY our " lifelong pursuit of assigning order to a confusing world". That is exactly what science is!

That's a great phrase. 

The church calls that "organizing matter unorganized" by the Word.  You know- words.  Math is a language, observations and experiments as reported and verbalized and published in journals etc are "linguistic", and organizing the world by "the Word".

Galileo's first peek through a telescope was "subjective" until he published it.  He organized the experience by publishing it through "The Word".  The observation was replicated by others, each individually having a "subjective" experience guided by what they read through "The Word".  Because it was now socially understood in language, it became multiple subjective experiences and suddenly therefore became "objective" because others had the same "subjective experience" looking through their own personal telescopes.

Each organized their "personal reality" and then made it part of the "public reality" all could share, through "the Word".  They call that sharing of private experience, therefore making it public, "Science".

It's just a pool of everyone agreeing on their individual replicated private experience.  That is "social reality".

Dude you are a prophet you just don't know it.  Get back to Walden Pond and do some more thinking, you are on the right track.

Edited January 1, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It just keeps amazing me how you can understand that there is a "strong propensity of the human mind, in it's lifelong pursuit of assigning order to a confusing world, to give that coincidence meaning or significance" when that is precisely what "science" is and is doing as well

I find it astounding that you would not see that, nor anyone else would not see that.

We CREATE the world AS WE KNOW IT precisely BY our " lifelong pursuit of assigning order to a confusing world". That is exactly what science is!

That's a great phrase. 

The church calls that "organizing matter unorganized" by the Word.  You know- words.  Math is a language, observations and experiments as reported and verbalized and published in journals etc are "linguistic", and organizing the world by "the Word".

Galileo's first peek through a telescope was "subjective" until he published it.  He organized the experience by publishing it through "The Word".  The observation was replicated by others, each individually having a "subjective" experience guided by what they read through "The Word".  Because it was now socially understood in language, it became multiple subjective experiences and suddenly therefore became "objective" because others had the same "subjective experience" looking through their own personal telescopes.

Each organized their "personal reality" and then made it part of the "public reality" all could share, through "the Word".  They call that sharing of private experience, therefore making it public, "Science".

It's just a pool of everyone agreeing on their individual replicated private experience.  That is "social reality".

Dude you are a prophet you just don't know it.  Get back to Walden Pond and do some more thinking, you are on the right track.

And that is just the observations. 

Science does NOT give us "meaning and significance" because you create your meaning and I create mine.  There is not one "meaning" or "significance" for everyone.

The "fact" that "by coincidence" I bumped into my wife when I did has VAST significance for me in my life.  VAST!!

But I give it that significance.  It is not at all significant for you. 

Religion is the giving of individual significance to events in your life.  That is why it is private and personal, because assigning significance cannot be a public event.

So our pool of interpreted private experiences make up "science".

Our personal construction of significance for private experiences and events and stories are "religion"

So "miracles" are events of personal experience which have been given significance- by us.

Science are events of personal experience which participate in the pool of personal experiences and are shared linguistically. Galileo looks through his blurry telescope and publishes drawings.  Others look at the drawings, look through their telescopes and have the same experience.  Science.

We have a personal experience - meeting our future wife.   After the fact we give it significance.  It was a "miracle" I met my wife.  God must have directed it all!

THAT is the order we create for the significance of the experience.

So it is impossible to create personal significance for someone else's "coincidence".

Coincidences happen to other people, miracles happen to us.  Or sometimes we see the coincidence AS a "miracle" because of the description of the event we have heard.  Jesus turned water to wine!!  A miracle! He must be the savior!

Coincidences have no assigned significance, miracles do have assigned significance.

Science does not assign significance to ANYTHING.  It is not its job.  6 million people die.  No significance scientifically.   None.  Not it's job to assign significance.

Ethics and religion on the other hand tells us that such events are "horrible".   "Evil".

That is how we organize these events with significance by the "Word"- the linguistic labels we learn which apply to events with this kind of significance.

That is why science and religion are different.  One is about personal private significance and the other deliberately strips away personal and private significance.

That is the only difference

I really do not know why I keep posting the same points again and again.  I suppose I am crazy.  I keep doing the same thing and expecting that it will make a difference.  Dumb.

[Jeanne]

I would like to share something that happened to me.  It won't necessarily mean anything to anyone else..but it was important to me.  My husband passed away a month before our 20th anniversary.  Obviously, things were still tender and raw in my in my sorrow in missing him.  Anyway, on our anniversary date a month later, the kids got me a beautiful ruby heart ring..it made my day and life just a little sweeter in our little family.  I had decided to get into the bedroom and clean things up..start putting things away.  On our little night stand on his side of  the bed, there was always a jar..(this must be a man thing)..this jar is just where he put old keys..extra pennies/change, tiny screws, pencils, you name it.

At the bottom of the jar was a receipt for a watch that he bought me for our last anniversary.  I noticed the date..and the time it was bought and looked at the clock on the nightstand and it was same time,,same day..what are the odds?  Needless to say, I felt it was more than a coincidence,,it was a hug.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

why would he do that? Should we pray for our favorite team to win? What about boxing? 

Manny Pacuiqo was defeating  marquez in a boxing match, but marquez won because of his miracle punch. 

I wouldn't bother praying about sports. It seems puerile. I do not think I have authority to tell God though what he can and cannot do either or set limits for when it is "fair" for him to intervene.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Does he help the wwe wrestlers win too?

This makes about as much sense as asking if God will help Macbeth survive the next time the play is performed.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

Again I agree with you, Nehor!

Most problematic from my point of view is when there is some kind of catastrophe were multiple people are killed and the ones who escape claim God protected them.

I don't see that as problematic. The idea that God has to be "fair" to everyone in a disaster situation and either save or kill them all seems dumb.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

Sherlock Holmes once famously claimed, "I don't believe in coincidence!"

It took me a while before I realized he said it in the one story where the solution to the crime was actually caused by a coincidence.

"I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences." -Garak

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don't see that as problematic. The idea that God has to be "fair" to everyone in a disaster situation and either save or kill them all seems dumb.

I agree.

As the scriptures show, Jesus didn't heal all the sick or raise all the dead during His mortal ministry.  Miracles are not an all or nothing experience.  What God wills for one He does not necessarily will for all.  

In every disaster we have examples of the fulfillment of scripture:  The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. 

Edited January 1, 2016 by bluebell

[strappinglad]

Medical science can take an ear that has been severed and restore it to a usable condition. They are not yet able to do so in unsterile conditions and by simply holding the ear back against the head that it came from. 

We can also restore a clinically dead person back to life. To do so without adrenaline and electrified paddles and after the person has been dead for 3 days is ,so far, beyond our reach. 

There are people who can stand beside a oil well blowout fire or walk near molten lava. They would have trouble doing so without highly specialized equipment, ie. , in just jeans and a T shirt. 

Magicians today can do things with cards that seem impossible,and they make objects and people appear or disappear at will.With a good selection of magic books,however, one can learn how it was done. Even after one knows how it was done, it still would take a great deal of skill and lots of practice to make it look ' magical '. Feeding 5000 people with a few loaves and fish is pretty amazing ,but by now someone would have written a book on how it was done and the local food banks would be doing it daily.I have not found the  book yet but I'm sure Amazon will have it,no?

Edited January 1, 2016 by strappinglad

[Rivers]

It depends on what type of person you are and how you view the universe.

http://youtu.be/27qUO8_9uT0

Edited January 1, 2016 by Rivers

[strappinglad]

I have a reasonably good handle on the difference between possible and probable from a mathematical perspective. It is true that if a group of 70 people is chosen at random from a crowd in a football stadium,  it is very likely that at least 2 will have the same birthday. But, if we say they must have the same birthday, same year, and be born in the same hospital within 10 minutes of each other, the odds go WAY down. Is it still possible? Sure, you might have chosen a group with identical twins. Now specify that there must be 10 people in that group of 70 that fulfill the given requirements. The probability of such an event can be calculated and it isn't zero, but it might as well be. If the event actually did happen, I would view it as a miracle. Either that, or the event was intelligently designed. ( sorry, I couldn't resist ).

[TheSkepticChristian]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Science is about solving problems in the world

Faith is about giving your life meaning.   

and how can I know that it is not wishful thinking? 

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

and how can I know that it is not wishful thinking? 

What is "wishful" about it?  Does that mean you have a wish that it is true?  Where does that come from?  Faith is HOPE for things unseen.

Get some confidence.  YOU get to decide what is true for you- no one else can do it for you.  You have already picked science- that's fine, just give it some limits.

It can't tell you what is important in your life or what is of value to you anyway.  You are not replacing science and the rational path- you are just opening up to other possibilities of a different way of seeing the world in ADDITION to what you see now.  You lose nothing and have infinite richness in your life to gain.

[TheSkepticChristian]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Get some confidence.  YOU get to decide what is true for you- no one else can do it for you.  

but the truth doesn't care what I decide. What is the truth? What really happens after I die? I want to know. 

Will I go to heaven? Will I disappear? Is Cryonics another option? 

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Get some confidence.  YOU get to decide what is true for you- no one else can do it for you.  You have already picked science- that's fine, just give it some limits.

I have decided the truth is that I am incredibly wealthy, have a harem of women who all love me, live in a mansion on the seashore, and that I have a perfect six-pack and sculpted muscles.

(checks)

I have detected a slight flaw in your statement.

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

but the truth doesn't care what I decide.

That is the most important principle in every area of the gospel and life.  And yet we spend so much time debating opinion, feeling, and reality.

[Freedom]

Since we do not have a clear map of Gods plan, this question is impossible to answer. It is like debating if Clark Gable ever secretly fantasized about being abducted by aliens. He is dead so all we can do is speculate. Miracles are employed to move Gods plan along and to bring His children closer to salvation. Miracles bring comfort as it did for Jeanne. Miracles testify of Christ. Miracles change the paradigm of an otherwise unbelieving or perhaps spiritually lost individual to being in reach of the tree of life.

If manipulating the outcome of a football or hockey game changes the circumstances of someone to accomplish his wishes, then perhaps God would intervene in such an event. Somethings we attribute to coincidences are simply normal events with which we are unfamiliar. I remember bumping into a long lost friend at a store and I expressed to her what a coincidence it was that we both came to the same store at the same time. She responded by saying that she sees me in this neighborhood all the time, I just never noticed her. I do not see this event as a miracle or a coincidence.

On the other hand, many years ago we were moving into a new home and an elderly fellow was walking his dog close by. Turns out he was excommunicated some 30 years earlier and had recently experienced a miraculous change in his paradigm. He then met us and now he and his wife are active members. I see this as a miracle. 

[thesometimesaint]

On 12/31/2015 at 1:39 AM, TheSkepticChristian said:

Coincidences and rare events happen every day, all the time.

1.  On September 6, 2009 a lottery in Bulgaria randomly selected as the winning numbers 4, 15, 23, 24, 35, 42. Just four days later the same Bulgarian lottery randomly selected the same winning numbers. The national sports minister launched an investigation, but found no evidence of tampering; investigators concluded repetition was mere chance.  

2. Roy Sullivan survived seven different strikes by lightning, he was struck in 1942, 1969, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1976 and 1977.

 3. In 1972, 27 people survived a plan crash in the Andes Mountains. 

4. Last minute interception gives Patriots Super Bowl victory. Miracles happen in sports

A book The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day by David J. Hand explains why extraordinary coincidences happen to all of us all the time. Some coincidences get our attention because our brains only select the interesting coincidences, but ignore or forget about the coincides that are not important. We tend to ignore evidence that does not support our theories, emphasizing only that which does. We can also cherry-pick our data. Finally, it is also easy to predict something after it has happened.   

So my question is, how can I tell the difference between a miracle from God and coincidence?  

We can't unless God tells us it is.

[smac97]

On 12/31/2015 at 3:55 PM, TheSkepticChristian said:

finally someone that doesn't believe God helps sports teams win. However, how do you answer my question in post 1#? 

I answered the question here (see part 2 and part 4(B)).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 2, 2016 by smac97

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have decided the truth is that I am incredibly wealthy, have a harem of women who all love me, live in a mansion on the seashore, and that I have a perfect six-pack and sculpted muscles.

(checks)

I have detected a slight flaw in your statement.

As you know I meant that religious truth cannot be known except through the spirit and the truth we construct through inspiration. unless you can tell us how much God weighs since religious truth for you, is apparently objective.  How did you get him on a scale, and was it based on earth's gravity?

I understand his location in the universe is a little difficult to find- what kind of vehicle did you use to get there?  How many light years did it take?

How does one verify objective truth claims about God?

Edited January 1, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

but the truth doesn't care what I decide. What is the truth? What really happens after I die? I want to know. 

Will I go to heaven? Will I disappear? Is Cryonics another option? 

These are questions every person who has ever lived has asked.

You can spend your life trying to use a method that doesn't work or one which has brought peace to billions of people since the dawn of time, and that is essentially following what their heart tells them.

Science doesn't work- it cannot work- it does not have the method, nor the tools at least at this point.  The only other option is faith, the "hope for things unseen".

"There is no other way".

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by mfbukowski

[TheSkepticChristian]

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

We can't unless God tells us it is.

how can we know when God is saying something? 

[strappinglad]

Apparently He sounds a lot like Morgan Freeman. 

If you got to speak with God face to face and ask just one question, what would you ask? Best make it one ,the answer to which  would cover most other questions or at least allow you to comfortably leave other questions on a ' wait a bit ' shelf. 

[Freedom]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

how can we know when God is saying something? 

Sounds to me like you have never felt the power of the holy ghost, or perhaps did not recognize it. You are seeking a revelatory experience. 

[SmileyMcGee]

15 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

but the truth doesn't care what I decide. What is the truth? What really happens after I die? I want to know. 

Will I go to heaven? Will I disappear? Is Cryonics another option? 

I think Mark has made it pretty clear that he uses the terms "truth" and "true" to refer to the usefulness of a belief and not some correspondence to "reality." The question offered in the topic merely poses two beliefs that people find useful. Some find coincidence more useful as an explanation for certain events, while others prefer divine intervention. They can both be useful ("true"). Neither explanation proves the other wrong. How could they? Asking which is more "real" gets messy. You'll probably end up begging questions and going in circles. 

Edited January 2, 2016 by SmileyMcGee