When Christians Love Theology More Than People

[Gray]

https://sojo.net/articles/when-christians-love-theology-more-people

 

I'm interested in people's reaction to this. This section stuck out to me:

Quote

But when you idolize belief systems and turn theology into an agenda, it poisons the very idea of selfless love. The gospel message turns into propaganda, friends turn into customers, and your relationship with God turns into a religion.

You may have the most intellectually sound theology, but if it's not delivered with love, respect, and kindness — it's worthless.

I like the priorities. No matter what your theology, kindness comes first.

[Jeanne]

I haven't read the whole thing yet..but I love what you quoted.  My religion is kindness.

[stemelbow]

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

https://sojo.net/articles/when-christians-love-theology-more-people

 

I'm interested in people's reaction to this. This section stuck out to me:

I like the priorities. No matter what your theology, kindness comes first.

We're all wrong about something.  Might as well accept that it's not the degree of wrongness in our beliefs that is the problem, it is the degree in which we want to embarrass others for their wrongness. 

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

https://sojo.net/articles/when-christians-love-theology-more-people

 

I'm interested in people's reaction to this. This section stuck out to me:

I like the priorities. No matter what your theology, kindness comes first.

So what are we going to hear when the other shoe drops, Gray?

 

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

So what are we going to hear when the other shoe drops, Gray?

 

I wonder if the thread would be more aptly titled "When Christians Are Falsely Accused of Loving Theology More Than People".  Of course "people matter".  But I am not persuaded that there is necessarily tension between the concept "people matter" and "doctrines matter".  In the LDS Church, the "doctrines" are entirely formulated to benefit "people".  So when the article states that "Within Christendom, we’re often taught the exact opposite (of the importance of treating other people well): that doctrines, traditions, theologies, and distinct beliefs are the only things that do matter", I think that's overbroad to the point of absurdity.

Moreover, LDS Christians have, for some years now, been falsely accused of hatred, bigotry, etc. because we adhere to doctrines that go against what many people want to hear (largely pertaining to the Law of Chastity and the definition of marriage).  So Mormons who love their fellow man, and who also believe in revealed doctrines, and who behave in accordance with the latter in ways which - quelle horreur! - irritate some of the former, then some of the former go out of their way to viciously and falsely accuse Mormons of hatred, bigotry, etc.

In other words, as far as Mormonism goes, I think the problem of elevating adherence to doctrine over concern for the welfare of people can exist, but I also think that such a concern can be - has been, is, and will be - exploited by people who resent LDS doctrines.  So they appropriate this "concern" as a pretext for attacking the Church, its members and its leaders.  So if the other shoe is going to drop, I can't help but think it will look something like "Mormons don't love gay people because they adhere to their Church's doctrines regarding the Law of Chastity" (though not phrased nearly as nicely as that).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 23, 2015 by smac97

[Russell C McGregor]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if the thread would be more aptly titled "When Christians Are Falsely Accused of Loving Theology More Than People".  Of course "people matter".  But I am not persuaded that there is necessarily tension between the concept "people matter" and "doctrines matter".  In the LDS Church, the "doctrines" are entirely formulated to benefit "people".  So when the article states that "Within Christendom, we’re often taught the exact opposite (of the importance of treating other people well): that doctrines, traditions, theologies, and distinct beliefs are the only things that do matter", I think that's overbroad to the point of absurdity.

Moreover, LDS Christians have, for some years now, been falsely accused of hatred, bigotry, etc. because we adhere to doctrines that go against what many people want to hear (largely pertaining to the Law of Chastity and the definition of marriage).  So Mormons who love their fellow man, and who also believe in revealed doctrines, and who behave in accordance with the latter in ways which - quelle horreur! - irritate some of the former, then some of the former go out of their way to viciously and falsely accuse Mormons of hatred, bigotry, etc.

In other words, as far as Mormonism goes, I think the problem of elevating adherence to doctrine over concern for the welfare of people can exist, but I also think that such a concern can be - has been, is, and will be - exploited by people who resent LDS doctrines.  So they appropriate this "concern" as a pretext for attacking the Church, its members and its leaders.  So if the other shoe is going to drop, I can't help but think it will look something like "Mormons don't love gay people because they adhere to their Church's doctrines regarding the Law of Chastity" (though not phrased nearly as nicely as that).

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes, that's the direction my suspicions run.

 

[filovirus]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

https://sojo.net/articles/when-christians-love-theology-more-people

 

I'm interested in people's reaction to this. This section stuck out to me:

I like the priorities. No matter what your theology, kindness comes first.

I honestly don't believe that those two ideas are mutually exclusive. Why can't a person love them both equally? Seems to me that Christ was quite the theologian in how he handled the "gotcha" questions presented many times to him. "Be Attitudes", parables, new covenants. I think He also probably studied the scriptures that were available just as thoroughly as any of the Pharisees, Sadducees, or scribes did. Yet he also was perfectly compassionate and had a deep love fore every single person, whether they be Jew or gentile.

I guess what I am trying to say is this: It is important to both understand the theology and obey the two great commandments.

[The Nehor]

I don't feel I have a choice to make here. It is like suggesting that if you have a son and a daughter you should love the older one more.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

https://sojo.net/articles/when-christians-love-theology-more-people

.........................................................................  

I'm interested in people's reaction to this. This section stuck out to me:

I like the priorities. No matter what your theology, kindness comes first.

Yes.  Sojourners is dedicated to the proposition that you may talk the talk, but if you don't walk the walk you are worthless.  Certainly Saint Francis, Mother Teresa, and the current Pope have all preached something like this.  But you really can't have one without the other.  As the author of that blistering piece also says near the close:

Quote

We should never give up on theology, academic study, or the pursuit of understanding God, the Bible, and the history and traditions of the church, but these things should inspire us to emulate Christ — to selflessly, sacrificially, and holistically love others. Theology should reinforce our motivation for doing things to make the world a better place — not serve as platforms to berate, criticize, and attack others. - See more at: https://sojo.net/articles/when-christians-love-theology-more-people#sthash.CRGUnltM.dpuf

 

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Avatar4321]

The doctrines of the gospel are designed to reconcile us with God and our fellow man. The law of chastity for example teaches us not to use our fellow man for our selfish pleasures (among other things).

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

So what are we going to hear when the other shoe drops, Gray?

 

No wars over "theology".

Countdown beginning......

[Zakuska]

11 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I haven't read the whole thing yet..but I love what you quoted.  My religion is kindness.

Agreed. Mine too...

James 1

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religionis vain.

 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, andto keep himself unspotted from the world.

[Tacenda]

Watched a morning news show yesterday with three women...a rabbi, a reverend, and a woman representing the Muslim faith. They were promoting that no church should claim a God as their own, or that they have the right God and everyone else is wrong.  They promoted the God as being a God of love, not of a certain religion.  I wish I could link the show, can't find it.  They had a good message. 

[Gray]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if the thread would be more aptly titled "When Christians Are Falsely Accused of Loving Theology More Than People".  Of course "people matter".  But I am not persuaded that there is necessarily tension between the concept "people matter" and "doctrines matter".  In the LDS Church, the "doctrines" are entirely formulated to benefit "people".  So when the article states that "Within Christendom, we’re often taught the exact opposite (of the importance of treating other people well): that doctrines, traditions, theologies, and distinct beliefs are the only things that do matter", I think that's overbroad to the point of absurdity.

Moreover, LDS Christians have, for some years now, been falsely accused of hatred, bigotry, etc. because we adhere to doctrines that go against what many people want to hear (largely pertaining to the Law of Chastity and the definition of marriage).  So Mormons who love their fellow man, and who also believe in revealed doctrines, and who behave in accordance with the latter in ways which - quelle horreur! - irritate some of the former, then some of the former go out of their way to viciously and falsely accuse Mormons of hatred, bigotry, etc.

In other words, as far as Mormonism goes, I think the problem of elevating adherence to doctrine over concern for the welfare of people can exist, but I also think that such a concern can be - has been, is, and will be - exploited by people who resent LDS doctrines.  So they appropriate this "concern" as a pretext for attacking the Church, its members and its leaders.  So if the other shoe is going to drop, I can't help but think it will look something like "Mormons don't love gay people because they adhere to their Church's doctrines regarding the Law of Chastity" (though not phrased nearly as nicely as that).

Thanks,

-Smac

I first saw the article linked on the Reddit Christianity group. The Christians there seemed to mostly approve of the message in the article. 

[Gray]

16 hours ago, filovirus said:

I honestly don't believe that those two ideas are mutually exclusive. Why can't a person love them both equally? Seems to me that Christ was quite the theologian in how he handled the "gotcha" questions presented many times to him. "Be Attitudes", parables, new covenants. I think He also probably studied the scriptures that were available just as thoroughly as any of the Pharisees, Sadducees, or scribes did. Yet he also was perfectly compassionate and had a deep love fore every single person, whether they be Jew or gentile.

I guess what I am trying to say is this: It is important to both understand the theology and obey the two great commandments.

Jesus placed two commandments over all of his other theological concerns - love God, love humanity. I think the article is in keeping with what Jesus taught. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Gray

[filovirus]

41 minutes ago, Gray said:

Jesus placed two commandments over all of his other theological concerns - love God, love humanity. I think the article is in keeping with what Jesus taught.

Again, not mutually exclusive. We can love God and our neighbor AND work on understanding the theology.

[consiglieri]

A revelation came to me a couple of months back while pondering the scriptures.

It summed up the entirety of Jesus's message in the New Testament to one short sentence:

Quote

People are more important than religion.

 

[smac97]

47 minutes ago, Gray said:

I first saw the article linked on the Reddit Christianity group. The Christians there seemed to mostly approve of the message in the article. 

I like the general sentiment as well.  Moses 1:39 tells us God's perspective relative to His children: "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."  I think God's greatest expression of love to His children is the Plan of Salvation, which centers on Jesus Christ, and which is designed to lead us to return to His presence to and to become "joint-heirs with Christ".  The doctrines pertaining to the Savior are vital to this Plan.  

• "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."  (2 John 1:9).  
• "In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity."  (Titus 2:7).  
• "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."  (Romans 16:17).  
• "Wait a little longer, until you shall have my word, my rock, my church, and my gospel, that you may know of a surety my doctrine."  (D&C 11:16).  
• "Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."  (Titus 1:9).  
• "They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine."  (2 Nephi 27:35).  

The Church of Jesus Christ is the custodian of these saving doctrines.  The Church is led by a prophet, a presiding high priest.  There are many people outside of the Church, and sadly - as we sometimes see here on this board - some people inside the Church, who hold President Monson and the other leaders of the Church in contempt.  But we have been told that "whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation."  (D&C 68:4). These prophets and apostles are constantly exhorting us to recognize and adhere to sound doctrines.  We have been warned what happens when we fail to do so:  

• "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."  (Matthew 15:9).  
• "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." (2 Timothy 4:3).  
• "Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up." (2 Nephi 28:12).  
• "And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin." (Alma 41:9).

So when adherence to doctrines goes awry, the children of God suffer.  As a corollary, when the children of God come together in unity and obedience to God, bound together by the Spirit and by the doctrines of Christ, the children of God flourish:

• "And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish.  And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them."  (Moses 7:17-18).
• "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ."  (Ephesians 4:11-15).
• "And he commanded them that there should be no contention one with another, but that they should look forward with one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another.  And thus he commanded them to preach. And thus they became the children of God."  (Mosiah 18:21-22).
• "And behold the disciples of Jesus had formed a church of Christ in all the lands round about. And as many as did come unto them, and did truly repent of their sins, were baptized in the name of Jesus; and they did also receive the Holy Ghost.  And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.  And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift."  (4 Nephi 1:1-3).

This is my understanding of how Christians should behave.  We care for our fellow man by adhering to the doctrines of Christ, not by disregarding them or subordinating them to the counsels of men.

This is why I sort of take exception to the article.  An observant, faithful Latter-day Saint should find no tension whatsoever in following and upholding the doctrines of God and in caring for their fellow brothers and sisters.  To the extent the article suggests/implies contrary notions, I will disagree with it.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 23, 2015 by smac97

[Gray]

1 minute ago, filovirus said:

Again, not mutually exclusive. We can love God and our neighbor AND work on understanding the theology.

Agreed. I think that's what the article is saying.

[consiglieri]

The problem is that when we "work on understanding theology," the temptation is there to believe our understandings are right.

Because our understandings are right, they are therefore God's understandings.

They are the Truth.

And the fact that others believe things different than the Truth almost invariably leads to judgmentalism.

And judgmentalism is always un-Christlike.

 

[Ahab]

I usually wait for God to tell me if what I think is right really is right, in reality, according to what God knows, before I judge whether or not what somebody else tells me they think about what is right.

[filovirus]

49 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The problem is that when we "work on understanding theology," the temptation is there to believe our understandings are right.

Because our understandings are right, they are therefore God's understandings.

They are the Truth.

And the fact that others believe things different than the Truth almost invariably leads to judgmentalism.

And judgmentalism is always un-Christlike.

 

So are you saying we should not study the scriptures?

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Watched a morning news show yesterday with three women...a rabbi, a reverend, and a woman representing the Muslim faith. They were promoting that no church should claim a God as their own, or that they have the right God and everyone else is wrong.  They promoted the God as being a God of love, not of a certain religion.  I wish I could link the show, can't find it.  They had a good message. 

I agree with their thoughts,  Religion should be basic love, fairness and selflessness.  T;hat is the God I see.

[Rain]

21 hours ago, Gray said:

https://sojo.net/articles/when-christians-love-theology-more-people

 

I'm interested in people's reaction to this. 

Reaction is going to change depending on who brings it up and where it is brought up because of our experiences.  

I think most,  if not all,  active members would agree that kindness (charity) matters most as far as actions go and that it goes hand in hand with theology.  When you work on one then you also work on the other though you may not realize it. 

Reactions differ because of the gotcha principle. If you read in the scriptures that charity is the greatest then you start to look at yourself to see where you can improve because you know the Lord puts it there because he loves you and wants the best for you.  Here people are used to constantly being asked to prove themselves or their beliefs.  It isn't a learning atmosphere for most,  but a debating one.  So reactions are going to be more defensive knowing that not everyone here has their best interests in mind.

People may react to the article feeling someone is going to say,  "gotcha". "Gotcha! You aren't being chartible even though you said it was as important as doctrine. " "Gotcha! See! Doctrine matters as much as kindness and you are being apostate because you put people first."

[smac97]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

The problem is that when we "work on understanding theology," the temptation is there to believe our understandings are right.

Because our understandings are right, they are therefore God's understandings.

They are the Truth.

And the fact that others believe things different than the Truth almost invariably leads to judgmentalism.

And judgmentalism is always un-Christlike.

 

Latter-day Saints aren't supposed to rely solely "our understandings".  We are instead instructed as follows in Proverbs 3:5: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."  Hence the benefit of having prophets and apostles, an open canon, continuing revelation, a visible Church, and so on.  If my "understanding" accords with what I read in the scriptures and hear from the Lord's anointed servants, then my understanding of an issue is much more likely to be correct.  Conversely, if what I believe is at odds with scripture and with what the Brethren are saying, then I should probably re-evaluate my understanding of the issue.

Oh, and the scriptures and the Brethren are constantly exhorting us against unrighteous judgment, so I don't accept your syllogism above.

Thanks,

-Smac