The Meaning of Spiritual Experiences

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, Walden said:

I have been out of the LDS church for over a decade and am now an atheist-leaning agnostic, and I still have experiences in which I am moved or overcome with a startling sense of peace or joy or comfort, just as I felt in the church when I was taught that those feelings were prompted by the holy ghost. Does the holy ghost still prompt those who no longer believe in the holy ghost or a divine Jesus of Nazareth or God?

Of course.

The church teaches that that is what makes it possible to be converted in the first place.

I am convinced that God leads us in the direction we need to go.  If I had not been an atheist for a while I would not now be a member.

[consiglieri]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

I am convinced that God leads us in the direction we need to go.  If I had not been an atheist for a while I would not now be a member.

But do you believe that "the direction we need to go" will always ultimately lead to the LDS Church?

[rongo]

16 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Not a good plan, then.

Well, there was another plan. Are you regretting your choice? 

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I always thought that was such a stupid law.

Maybe so, but think how humdrum life would be if there was only boring sameness, without any opposition.

I learned early on in philosophy class that one can only understand through differentiation.  This is particularly the case when attempting to prove something -- theoretical falsifiability is required in order to have a coherent rule or theory of anything, or to have a meaningful research design.  Indeed, it is a matter of the universal law of opposition in physics -- if there is matter, there must be anti-matter, etc.

[Robert F. Smith]

33 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

.................................................

"When the Spirit deals with non-Mormons, is its primary purpose to lead them to Mormonism?"

I think otherwise, but would be interested in your thoughts.

You are correct.  Most people are not Mormon and are not going to become Mormon any time soon.  The Holy Spirit is busy with billions of people right now, appealing to "their better angels."  Take the Jews, for example, among God's covenant people.  They are clearly unconcerned with matters Mormon, but are deeply concerned with building the modern State of Israel -- which just might be a matter of fulfillment of prophecy.

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

But do you believe that "the direction we need to go" will always ultimately lead to the LDS Church?

I think it is an evolutionary process.  I think that in our world bipeds with a large brain and hands who had to care for their young for a long time after birth and did so socially by creating social reality would eventually evolve.  I also believe that God directed that, but your beliefs may vary on that one.

I also believe that due to the evolution of social values, the theosis of the family and the social and linguistic creation of reality through Ideal Human Beings as core religious beliefs would happen inevitably, and that this process is what God wanted to accomplish.

If you interpret those beliefs as logically equivalent to " "the direction we need to go" will always ultimately lead to the LDS Church?" then I suppose the answer is "yes".  Take your pick.  Those are your words, not mine.

I think the explanation is a tad more complicated than your statement of it.

Edited December 11, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

35 minutes ago, Walden said:

I have been out of the LDS church for over a decade and am now an atheist-leaning agnostic, and I still have experiences in which I am moved or overcome with a startling sense of peace or joy or comfort, just as I felt in the church when I was taught that those feelings were prompted by the holy ghost. Does the holy ghost still prompt those who no longer believe in the holy ghost or a divine Jesus of Nazareth or God?

Years ago, when I was living abroad and meeting people from many different backgrounds and religions, I would now and then run across someone (usually women) who described immediate "cosmic" experiences.  Perhaps those were part of the range of experience which one might attribute to the Holy Spirit.

[mfbukowski]

Oh and Consig-

Welcome back.

I think....  

 

[consiglieri]

26 minutes ago, rongo said:

Well, there was another plan. Are you regretting your choice? 

Every day, baby.

[consiglieri]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Maybe so, but think how humdrum life would be if there was only boring sameness, without any opposition.

I learned early on in philosophy class that one can only understand through differentiation.  This is particularly the case when attempting to prove something -- theoretical falsifiability is required in order to have a coherent rule or theory of anything, or to have a meaningful research design.  Indeed, it is a matter of the universal law of opposition in physics -- if there is matter, there must be anti-matter, etc.

Just to clarify I agree with you, Robert, and the "stupid law" quote was from Pee Wee's Big Adventure.

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

It would be nice if you had a real answer.  Apparently you don't.

Idiocy cannot be answered with rationality. You suggested that you cannot believe in a God that would pay attention to minor things while there are major things wrong. You did this in spite of the fact that the LDS Church (and the rest of Western religions including the rest of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) does not believe in such a limited deity with finite resources. I can accuse a gardener of spending too much time on one particular plant of relative unimportance but God can follow that plant in every minute detail for eternity with no loss of focus on anything else.

I think you know that LDS and most of the people here who believe in God do not believe in your limited God yet you foist your strawman idol god on us anyways as if you are making a point and expect us to take you seriously. If you want to argue that you think if God existed He should be doing more in general say that instead of making this facile argument about God having to prioritize and you not liking his priorities.

[Storm Rider]

34 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

But do you believe that "the direction we need to go" will always ultimately lead to the LDS Church?

It all depends on the will of God.  None of us has a real handle on the entire plan or how God will accomplish the little of his plan he has shared with us.  What we know is that God lives and loves each of his children.  He has certainly restored the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth, but he has not stopped working with the rest of his children.  He continues to guide them.  I think that God does the best he can with what he has at hand.  Some of us are not the brightest tools to work with and some of us are perfect accomplishing God's will outside of the Church.  

I don't think we should be so concerned about what the will of God is for other people; we need to focus on learning God's will for our own lives and striving to do that.  Accept that God is guiding others and let God take care of it.  

[consiglieri]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh and Consig-

Welcome back.

I think....  

 

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water . . .

[volgadon]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

But do you believe that "the direction we need to go" will always ultimately lead to the LDS Church?

Welcome back! I see the answer ultimately as yes, but as mankind is free to choose, there are plenty of other, good choices. Progression is always about going higher or further. I have a friend who became an atheist after his mission. Lots of drugs and alcohol. He then got into a lot of Hindu-inspired new age mysticism, which was a definite improvement. A profound spiritual experience finally led him to Islam, where he has flourished spiritually and personally. I am very happy for him, and see the hand of God in this. I think that even if a person turns away from the best (and in my opinion the church for all its faults and shortcomings is the best option or I would not be in it), God will still lead him or her upwards.

[volgadon]

Just now I opened up Aimé Pallieré's "The Unknown Sanctuary" at random. "Yes, there is a certitude against which the assaults of doubt, the negations of incredulity dash themselves in vain like waves against a rock. Perish all the the myths and dogmas! God remains to thee and with Him thou hast ALL. Thou art his creature and his child and nothing in the world can ever take thee out of his hands. Here is the truth, and is there a more Catholic truth in the real sense of the word than that which filled my soul..."

[Sanpitch]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Idiocy cannot be answered with rationality. You suggested that you cannot believe in a God that would pay attention to minor things while there are major things wrong. You did this in spite of the fact that the LDS Church (and the rest of Western religions including the rest of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) does not believe in such a limited deity with finite resources. I can accuse a gardener of spending too much time on one particular plant of relative unimportance but God can follow that plant in every minute detail for eternity with no loss of focus on anything else.

I think you know that LDS and most of the people here who believe in God do not believe in your limited God yet you foist your strawman idol god on us anyways as if you are making a point and expect us to take you seriously. If you want to argue that you think if God existed He should be doing more in general say that instead of making this facile argument about God having to prioritize and you not liking his priorities.

You seem to be adding a lot and imagining what I did say and feel.  I'll put you down as you have no idea.

Seems to me a simple question and not much to do with God's limited power.  Mainly that people feel the spirit guidance and help in everyday life.  While hundreds of thousands of children and adults are starving and dying of sickness.  My question is how does someone explain this happening.  That some get all kinds of help in everyday life and others are thrown to the wolfs.  Small children did not do wrong and deserve that kind of life and the same with most adults.

[Bernard Gui]

This is how I understand the influence God has on all his children, LDS or not:

 

"The Light of Christ is the divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things. The Light of Christ influences people for good and prepares them to receive the Holy Ghost. One manifestation of the Light of Christ is what we call a conscience...The Light of Christ 'proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space.' It is 'the light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed' (D&C 88:12-13; see also D&C 88:6-11). This power is an influence for good in the lives of all people (see John 1:9; D&C 93:2)." https://www.lds.org/topics/light-of-christ?lang=eng

" 2 Nephi 31: 3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding."

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is reserved for those who enter the covenant of baptism and receive it by the laying on of hands.

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

You seem to be adding a lot and imagining what I did say and feel.  I'll put you down as you have no idea.

Seems to me a simple question and not much to do with God's limited power.  Mainly that people feel the spirit guidance and help in everyday life.  While hundreds of thousands of children and adults are starving and dying of sickness.  My question is how does someone explain this happening.  That some get all kinds of help in everyday life and others are thrown to the wolfs.  Small children did not do wrong and deserve that kind of life and the same with most adults.

Congratulations on blindly stumbling onto the ancient and much studied problem of theodicy (why God tolerates evil) for the first time. Congratulations also on discovering that the world is not a good and happy place most of the time.

Do you imagine these discoveries are new? People were saying God is good long before there were painkillers and air conditioning. I have a medical condition that leads to depression and perpetual tiredness if not treated with medication. If I had lived even 100 years ago my life would have been much harder. Why does the most physically pampered generation imagine that it discovered suffering?

If you want to know why people (innocent and guilty) suffer I recommend the scriptures. I suggest Job for starters.

[Hamba Tuhan]

57 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Some get all kinds of help in everyday life and others are thrown to the wolfs.  Small children did not do wrong and deserve that kind of life and the same with most adults.

I find it interesting when people who live in comfort get religiously offended on behalf of those who suffer. The Elders and I met with a man yesterday who was 10 years old when he witnessed his parents and elder sister be killed by a neighbouring tribe who wanted their land. He then fled to a nearby city and spent the rest of his childhood/adolescence living on the streets, begging, learning to perform odd jobs, etc. As an adult, he saved money for eight years to get enough to apply to come here to study as an international student. He spoke to us powerfully of his love for God and his burning desire to serve Him. One of his statements especially stood out to me, 'Where I come from, if you don't have God, you have nothing'.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, consiglieri said:

This is an important experience you had, which I think goes to show the access of all peoples of all religions (and even non-religions) to the Spirit of God.

It would make me extremely sad to think that other people didn't have access to the Spirit of God. If they can't at this moment enjoy all the blessings that I enjoy, I want them to enjoy as much as they can. A few years ago, my housemates and I (all LDS) were invited to attend an event at another church. When we got into the car afterward, the girlfriend of one housemate said, 'Well, that was an awful lot of nothing', which summed up exactly how I'd been feeling. Not even a glimmer of anything spiritual or rich or wonderful or moving had been detected by any of us during the entire service. I didn't like that. I want other people to have something, and gratefully most of them do, often in abundance!

[consiglieri]

4 hours ago, volgadon said:

Welcome back! I see the answer ultimately as yes, but as mankind is free to choose, there are plenty of other, good choices. Progression is always about going higher or further.

Thanks for the welcome, Volgadon!

(Your dreams were your ticket out.)

I agree with you that progression is always about going higher or further.

Do you think at some point the LDS Church becomes an obstacle to progression?

It has been my experience this is the case, and that to continue to progress, I have had to transcend Mormonism.

[volgadon]

4 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Thanks for the welcome, Volgadon!

(Your dreams were your ticket out.)

I agree with you that progression is always about going higher or further.

Do you think at some point the LDS Church becomes an obstacle to progression?

It has been my experience this is the case, and that to continue to progress, I have had to transcend Mormonism.

Well, the church isn't static. Some things it does can impede progress. Hell, even having a bishop call you in to chew you out about your toddler not remaining still could push some out, let alone the new policies. My dream is for everything to stay or convert, but if not, as long as you stay with God that is best. He knows you better than anyone else does, even you.

[Calm]

Quote

Perhaps the occasional exception for "never" falls under the umbrella provided in the following paragraph in Preach My Gospel: "Occasionally it will press just firmly enough for us to pay heed..." (....a whisper, or even a normal volume would likely not have been firm enough to jar me out of my shock.)

I would agree that sometimes the "just firmly enough" may feel like a sledgehammer.

However, I think just like the rest of humanity, the Spirit prefers not to have to fight for our attention if there is a choice.  I can't listen to my husband and the TV at the same time.  I think there is plenty of evidence from his behaviour that my husband has the same problem (when he attempts to do so, he often gets what I've asked him to do wrong, forgets what I've said or similar mistakes occur).  I know my kids might as well be in another state if they are playing a game and I am attempting to talk to them.  I don't see why it would be that much different with the Spirit.  One of my experiences with the Spirit contributes for me to the evidence most of the time it comes in when we are in a moment of quiet.  I had been working all day for a couple of days preparing for taking off on a trip.  Part of that was planning how long it would take and my husband pointed out we would have to make some adjustments due to our daughter.  That didn't have any impact on what I was doing for several hours until I took a moment to sit down and compose myself as I had been getting a bit frantic that I wouldn't be able to get everything done in time (I hate to leave a dirty house for a couple of weeks because it is quite off-putting to come home to a load of work and dump a ton of luggage on top of it, let alone the potential smell, stains setting in with laundry, etc).  I wasn't thinking particularly of anything, just trying to catch my breath more or less.  My mind just emptied (and it never does that even when I try) and the knowledge "she has diabetes" was just there.  There was no reason to anticipate that she would have this problem as there is no history of type 1 diabetes in our family, she was not sick and the symptoms of diabetes that she was exhibiting were very minor and could be explained by a couple of other more common things.  I was not aware that she was thirsty or eating more (she was pretty independent in that outside of breakfast and dinner).  She had not complained at all about feeling bad or weak.  But I knew in that moment that was the problem and what to do.  Called up my husband and told him to come home and to pick up some testing strips on the way (I anticipated needing to justify to the doctor getting her admitted to the hospital and didn't want to waste time).  She was off the charts and we headed immediately to the hospital where the receptionist was shocked that we had figured it out and had been able to confirm it on our own.  That had never happened before to her knowledge.  Most kids pass out from what we were told.  If I hadn't had that revelation before we had left on our trip, it is quite possible that she could have had her crash while we were in the middle of nowhere with poor facilities for treatment.  As it was, while it was shattering to find out, we avoided a huge amount of panic and fear and we were even able go on vacation a few days later with no problems (well, beyond the fact that my daughter was either in total denial or furious with the world).

I have had other experiences where it is in those moments I've just stopped doing anything and am taking a breather and I get hit with pure information/insight, though most of the time I am aware that a problem actually exists and I am seeking direction for it.  I highly doubt I am all that special, so these experiences have confirmed for me that generally speaking if we want to hear the Spirit, we have to give it a chance to be heard first.

As to why we were so blessed as to be able to avoid at least some trauma, while others have disasters occurring in their life and they are not given any respite by the Lord as far as we can tell, I don't have a clue.  I don't think we were any more worthy to receive instruction than a large percentage of the world's population anymore than I believe we have some inherent right to the enormous wealth we have in comparison to most in the world (though we rate as middle incomers in our culture).  Whatever reason God has, that is not one of the things the Spirit has told me and I am completely mystified by it.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If I had lived even 100 years ago my life would have been much harder.

Just five years made a huge difference for me with my disorder.  It was just becoming known when it tripped into high gear for me (my GP treated me like I was suddenly a drug addict when I went into her office and said I thought I had discovered what my problem was; at the time the majority of GPs might have heard of RLS, but were not aware of the best treatment or how to even diagnose it...thankfully she was willing to send me to a specialist, who was going to conferences to learn about it though at the beginning of our relationship I knew more than he did).  My grandfather went through a hell of misery and pain in his last days five years previously because they stuffed him full of the very drugs that make the disorder go into overdrive; his doctors didn't have a clue what it was and just thought he was having bad anxiety.  Of course, if it had been 15 years sooner, I would likely not have a severe case as misdiagnosis and treatment probably pushed the progression up a couple of decades (comparing myself to my siblings).

And boy, we were grateful that the insulin pump was generally available and just accepted to be covered by our insurance right when we were ready for it given my daughter's needle phobia.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Calm

[Stargazer]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2015 at 3:58 PM, Sanpitch said:

This always strikes me geocentric to feel that the spirit is with and guiding someone, protecting them form harm or accident.  At the same time people all over the world are living terrible lives with starvation, sickness, and destruction through earthquakes or other natural disasters.  How is this explained? 

I meant to say "egocentric".  But geocentric also applies when feeling that the center of the universe is in downtown SLC.  

When my wife died it was the oddest thing, Sanpitch: the peace of the Spirit filled the house, and despite my grief, I was AT PEACE.  The Spirit does not only protect from harm.  Sometimes it reconciles us to the will of the Lord, and allows us to deal with what is happening in a constructive way.  It is those who have no peace because they reject the Spirit who are the most poor and unfortunate.  This is a choice, usually, although there are some who are only ignorant of it.  And some who are ignorant, but who still allow the Light of Christ bring them peace, have that peace even if they have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost.  It is written that the Spirit of the Lord shall not always strive with us, but sometimes it does.  if we let it. 

And the center of the universe is, as far as I can tell, right where I am at any given moment.