consiglieri Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 Growing up in the LDS Church, I was conditioned to believe that anytime I felt the Spirit, it was a confirmatory experience. I.e., When I experienced the Spirit while reading the Book of Mormon, it confirmed the Book of Mormon was true. If I had a spiritual experience while at church, it confirmed that the LDS Church was true. I am at a point in my life when I am wondering whether that is the necessary, or even the most important, interpretation of encounters with the Spirit. Might it mean something else? Might it mean something more? I don't have any hard and fast answers, but I do know I have had spiritual experiences in settings completely removed from anything related to Mormonism. For instance, I distinctly remember being in the audience during a performance of the South Carolina Modern Dance Company back in the early 1980's and during one of the numbers, feeling the distinct impression of the Spirit. "What is this doing here?" I thought. "The Spirit isn't supposed to be showing up outside of church! And especially not during a dance performance!" But there it was nonetheless. I do not think the Spirit was trying to teach me that modern dance is "true," or that the South Carolina Modern Dance Company is the only true and living dance company on the face of the earth. I am wondering if others have had spiritual experiences outside of church and unrelated to Mormonism, and if so, what they make of them. All the Best! --Consiglieri 2
Avatar4321 Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 I've had the Spirit warn me. Not sure what you mean by us being told it's always confirming.
The Nehor Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 Often the Spririt visits when I am happy or enjoying myself. It is not a confirmation of anything, I am convinced it is God telling me to have fun. 4
CV75 Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 13 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I am wondering if others have had spiritual experiences outside of church and unrelated to Mormonism, and if so, what they make of them. Yes. They all have to do with God, and so get integrated into every aspect of my life including those that might at first glance to be compartmentalized from the others. This integration is part of the process of becoming whole and complete. 2
Popular Post Avatar4321 Posted December 10, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 10, 2015 Btw why would any latter day saint living his religion not to expect the Spirit outside of Church? Isn't that the entire point of the gift of the Holy Ghost? How does the Spirit become our constant companion if He only comes on Sunday at church? 8
Zakuska Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) This past year I've had the spirit call me to repentance through a fortune cookie. On my mission he helped me find money to get us to the bank so we could cash our checks from the mission office. ( I seem to remember a Fish helped the Apostles find some money when they needed it.too) Edited December 11, 2015 by Zakuska
Sanpitch Posted December 10, 2015 Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) This always strikes me geocentric to feel that the spirit is with and guiding someone, protecting them form harm or accident. At the same time people all over the world are living terrible lives with starvation, sickness, and destruction through earthquakes or other natural disasters. How is this explained? I meant to say "egocentric". But geocentric also applies when feeling that the center of the universe is in downtown SLC. Edited December 11, 2015 by Sanpitch 2
Popular Post rodheadlee Posted December 11, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 11, 2015 4 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: This always strikes me geocentric to feel that the spirit is with and guiding someone, protecting them form harm or accident. At the same time people all over the world are living terrible lives with starvation, sickness, and destruction through earthquakes or other natural disasters. How is this explained? Isn't it better to have the Spirit with you when bad things happen than to not have the Spirit with you when bad things happen? Even if you die in an earthquake or a tsunami there is this promise from the Lord. D&C 42: 46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not ataste of bdeath, for it shall be csweet unto them; And if you don't have the Spirit with you: 47 And they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter. I've been through earthquakes and a tsunami or 2 as well as 2 hurricanes. I'd rather have the Holy Spirit with me than not. 6
consiglieri Posted December 11, 2015 Author Posted December 11, 2015 2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Isn't it better to have the Spirit with you when bad things happen than to not have the Spirit with you when bad things happen? I think it's better to not have bad things happen. 1
ERayR Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think it's better to not have bad things happen. Not possible or even rational given the makeup of mortality. 2
consiglieri Posted December 11, 2015 Author Posted December 11, 2015 I also remember feeling the Holy Ghost while reading Letters from Birmingham Jail when I was in college. What should I make of that? That the letters are scripture? Or that Martin Luther King, Jr. was a prophet of God? Or something else?
consiglieri Posted December 11, 2015 Author Posted December 11, 2015 22 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: This always strikes me geocentric to feel that the spirit is with and guiding someone, protecting them form harm or accident. At the same time people all over the world are living terrible lives with starvation, sickness, and destruction through earthquakes or other natural disasters. How is this explained? It is usually explained by how God blesses those who are obedient. Except when he doesn't. Then it's a trial of your faith. 1
ERayR Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 Just now, consiglieri said: I also remember feeling the Holy Ghost while reading Letters from Birmingham Jail when I was in college. What should I make of that? That the letters are scripture? Or that Martin Luther King, Jr. was a prophet of God? Or something else? I go for something else. I have not read that but suspect there is some good truths therein.
consiglieri Posted December 11, 2015 Author Posted December 11, 2015 7 minutes ago, ERayR said: Not possible or even rational given the makeup of mortality. Not a good plan, then.
consiglieri Posted December 11, 2015 Author Posted December 11, 2015 5 minutes ago, ERayR said: I go for something else. I have not read that but suspect there is some good truths therein. I think you are probably right. But this makes me think the Spirit can witness to things that have truths in them without necessarily signifying the truthfulness of the thing in its entirety. What do you think?
ERayR Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Not a good plan, then. Depends on what the plan objective is. 2
ERayR Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 4 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think you are probably right. But this makes me think the Spirit can witness to things that have truths in them without necessarily signifying the truthfulness of the thing in its entirety. What do you think? I think that is correct.
bluebell Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 I think that some of this is just a reality of our immature relationship with the spirit. Not that we don't feel it when we think we are, but that we're not necessarily understanding Him very well yet. "Feeling the spirit = something is "true" is probably way too simplistic. But it's a place to start. I know for me, trying to understand the Spirit is a daily endeavor, and most of the time I mess it up. It's the small progress that keeps me trying. PS-good to see you again Consigliere. 😊
Hamba Tuhan Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 I'm confused by this topic since it seems to leave out so much of the process. To me, divine communication never just is; rather, it comes bearing content. The quiet whisperings of the Spirit are never just 'good feelings' but specific invitations to act. They are what entice us to do good. We encounter something, and the Spirit suggests to us that it is a good thing and encourages us to act on it. If we accept the invitation to act, we start to enjoy even more of the fruits of the Spirit, but we also begin to see the fruits of our actions and can start to evaluate if what we are doing genuinely is good. Both kinds of fruit invite us to further action, which action, if indeed it is good and true, brings additional fruits of the Spirit and engenders further good fruit in our lives and in the lives of those around us. And on and on the process goes, in an ever-upward spiral, until we finally reach a point where we would have to be crazy (or rebellious) not to fully embrace the good thing as true and of God. At least that's how it works for me. The things I know to be true are all things that I've experienced personally, through long periods of testing and evaluation. The influence of the Holy Ghost plays an essential role in this process, from beginning to end, but it isn't the process. 4
rodheadlee Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 52 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think it's better to not have bad things happen. Thank you Captain Obvious. You've change my whole life's paradigm. I shall never untie the dock lines again!! 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 45 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Not a good plan, then. Of all people, the Saints should understand the absolute necessity of a mortal, fallen experience to our agency, our growth, and our progression. 4
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted December 11, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 11, 2015 46 minutes ago, consiglieri said: But this makes me think the Spirit can witness to things that have truths in them without necessarily signifying the truthfulness of the thing in its entirety. Whenever truth is taught, it invites the Spirit; it doesn't matter where or by whom. When I was studying in Indonesia, I spent my mid-semester break with my houseboy in his home village. One evening he invited me to attend a Pentecostal home-worship with him. The young minister got up and preached a fantastic sermon based on Matthew 7:21. As he did so, the Spirit filled my whole soul, and I felt motivated to be a better disciple of Jesus Christ. Because they were Pentecostals, the farmers around me added numerous vocal amens and hallelujahs, and I felt to join them, if only in my heart. Then, in the middle of his sermon, the minister paused, pointed to me, and told me that the Spirit had told him that I should come up and share my testimony of the Saviour -- which I was more than happy to do. Then he concluded his sermon, to the edification, I'm certain, of all present. It was a powerful night and still has impact in my life. 5
hagoth7 Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) 6 hours ago, consiglieri said: ...I am wondering if others have had spiritual experiences outside of church and unrelated to Mormonism, and if so, what they make of them... Type 1 experience: I have mentioned this previously in other threads here, but in keeping with something Joseph taught, I occasionally study the writings of people in other faiths, and attend some of their meetings. Both studying some of those things, and in worship and/or study meetings with them, when something true was being taught that I previously didn't know, the Spirit has confirmed its truth. Knowledge/Intelligence/Light. Type 2 experience: On other occasions, whether in LDS settings or elsewhere, I have experienced the Spirit more along the lines of a Comforter, a reminder of God's presence and being loved. Much more along the lines of love than light/intelligence. Something more important than any other kind of insight.. There was a thread here within the last three months or so where the OP mentioned receiving *what they had interpreted* as confirmation from the Spirit for something they were asking about (they had assumed it was a Type 1 experience). When things didn't pan out as expected, and they were wondering why they had felt what they thought was confirmation to do the thing they were asking about, I asked if it was possible that rather than being a type 1 experience as they assumed, that they consider whether it might have been a type 2 experience instead...the corollary being God's invitation to call upon him (or seek the insight of a Type 1 experience, akin to what happened with the 1st vision minus the need to always see anything) while He is near. In my opinion, sometimes we ask for help, and feel God's presence, it is the preamble, a type 2 experience. And we rush to the conclusion that the preamble or type 2 experience IS the answer we were seeking, rather than following through and then asking for the Type 1 experience while He is near. I don't claim to know which was actually the case with the example in that other thread, as it wasn't my experience and isn't my domain. But I think we sometime miss out on key opportunities when we confuse the preamble (Type 2) for the answer we wanted (Type 1). Thoughts? Edited December 11, 2015 by hagoth7 2
Calm Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) Quote I was conditioned to believe that anytime I felt the Spirit, it was a confirmatory experience. I have never thought or treated the Spirit as a confirmatory presence, just there to say yea or nay (am I understanding you correctly?) and only in a spiritually worthy or safe environment (again, I am not sure I am understanding you correctly). That seems like seeing the Spirit as kind of like a Magic 8 Ball. I am trying to think of what scriptures and teaching might be interpreted that way, but only have a vague idea. When I think of the term "comforter" and "companion" it seems so much more. The Gift of the Holy Ghost meant and means to me that he is there 24/7 (sometimes even when I sort of don't want him to be), not just there in 'spiritually special' places such as church or the Temple. We have so much of revelation that is something more than a confirmatory experience or limited to what we see as typically spiritual places (for example Liberty Jail, the Spirit was there for Joseph). I am trying to wrap my head around why someone would think this way, having a hard time understanding though. Perhaps it has something to do with seeing inspiration as significantly different than revelation? (I don't) Edited December 11, 2015 by Calm 3
hagoth7 Posted December 11, 2015 Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: I have never thought or treated the Spirit as a confirmatory presence, just there to say yea or nay... While I agree that the Spirit is not "just" a confirmatory presence, the perspective of the Spirit being at times a yea/nay guide can come from a reading of D&C 9, (plus somewhat-related things like Moroni 10). On my mission, that aspect of inspiration was something we were taught to use as missionaries in our finding efforts, and to teach investigators regularly. It was even an additional discussion in our mission, on top of the more standard discussions, specifically on recognizing the Spirit. I haven't followed how the discussions have changed since then. Found it: https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-recognize-and-understand-the-spirit?lang=eng Edited December 11, 2015 by hagoth7
Recommended Posts