Avatar4321 Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 If they do then is important we keep them? And if it's not why then are the covenants important?And is there anything worth throwing those covenants away for?
carbon dioxide Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 If they do then is important we keep them? And if it's not why then are the covenants important?And is there anything worth throwing those covenants away for?The causes that some people will blow themselves up over can be fascinating.
The Nehor Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Without the making and keeping of covenants entrance into Celestial glory is impossible so if that is important to you they are important. If not, then not.
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 It may not be important when we make them, but it is important that we eventually make them. Children who die before the age of 8 are automatically exalted without having made any covenants and done any saving ordinances in their mortal lives, but they must make them in the spirit world so they can receive their guaranteed exaltation.
JLHPROF Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 They are important AND binding.Pres. Heber C. Kimball taught that what you promise God you will do he will compel you to do, even if it takes 10,000 years.Seems to me "breaking covenants" may not be as easy to do as an apostate thinks.
rodheadlee Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 What are the baptismal covenants? I should know them but I have CRS, Can't Remember Stuff. When I was a child I had a near photographic memory. I ruined it being, well, a sinner I guess. It was long before I was baptized. I know TMI.
KevinG Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 They are for our eternal protection and blessing. If we err then we have a Savior. But we must bring a broken heart and contrite spirit to repent of our failures to take full advantage of the atonement. So they matter, until they don't, until they do again. 1
filovirus Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 What are the baptismal covenants? I should know them but I have CRS, Can't Remember Stuff. When I was a child I had a near photographic memory. I ruined it being, well, a sinner I guess. It was long before I was baptized. I know TMI.2 Nephi 31:13Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. Mosiah 18:10Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you? D&C 20:37And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. D&C 20:77O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen. 1
Buckeye Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 They are important AND binding.Pres. Heber C. Kimball taught that what you promise God you will do he will compel you to do, even if it takes 10,000 years.Seems to me "breaking covenants" may not be as easy to do as an apostate thinks. What? I can understand an infinitely patient God. But a God who compels? That seems anathema with LDS teachings. 1
bluebell Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 They are important AND binding.Pres. Heber C. Kimball taught that what you promise God you will do he will compel you to do, even if it takes 10,000 years.Seems to me "breaking covenants" may not be as easy to do as an apostate thinks. How can God compel us to do something without taking away our agency? Isn't the idea that we can be compelled to be obedient to God satan's plan? 4
Buckeye Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) How can God compel us to do something without taking away our agency? Isn't the idea that we can be compelled to be obedient to God satan's plan? And what about the hymn "Know This That Every Soul Is Free" which says "God will force no man to heaven"? Edited November 11, 2015 by Buckeye
ksfisher Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 They are important AND binding.Pres. Heber C. Kimball taught that what you promise God you will do he will compel you to do, even if it takes 10,000 years.Seems to me "breaking covenants" may not be as easy to do as an apostate thinks. "Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted."http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine 1
Avatar4321 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 They are important AND binding.Pres. Heber C. Kimball taught that what you promise God you will do he will compel you to do, even if it takes 10,000 years.Seems to me "breaking covenants" may not be as easy to do as an apostate thinks.Cfr please
JLHPROF Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Cfr please "What you have agreed to do, God will require you to perform, if it should be ten thousand years after this time. And when the servants of God speak to you, and require you to do a thing, the Lord God will fulfil (sic) His words he gave to you through His servants. Inasmuch as you have come into this Church, and made a covenant to forsake the world, and cleave unto the Lord, and keep His commandments, the Lord will compel you to do it, if it should be in ten thousand years from this time. These are my views, and I know it will be so.” Heber C. Kimball JD 2:151 By compel I believe this means that God doesn't release us from our covenants and watches until obeyed, not that he forces us to comply.And if you have agreed to do something you have already exercised your agency. This is not an issue of force (removing agency), this is an issue of holding people to their covenants. "Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted."http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine Yeah, you already know my feeling on this when used as an excuse for a revealed doctrine.
Avatar4321 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 That makes more sense. Think God will hold us accountable for what we promise.
stemelbow Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Covenants should be individual. I think we like to see it as the covenants we've made with God are the same that others have made because they went through the same ordinances. Well, we all have individual perspective on what's going on and what we're agreeing to. I don't see the point of condemning people like many on this board tend to do when it comes to covenant breaking. Condemner don't know what individuals have covenanted.
Duncan Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 I don't see God forcing someone who clearly doesn't want to do something to do that something-whatever that something is. Can anyone give a real world example? is he going to force some inactive guy to take part in the I dunno the second coming or opening up missionary work in China?
toon Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 If they do then is important we keep them? And if it's not why then are the covenants important?And is there anything worth throwing those covenants away for? If there is a god, and if this god sanctions the covenant, then yes, they matter and it's important to keep them. It's always been my understanding that a covenant is an agreement, which requires the assent of all parties in order to be valid and enforceable. If one party didn't agree, of if that party didn't exist, then the agreement is not valid and enforceable. 1
JLHPROF Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) I don't see God forcing someone who clearly doesn't want to do something to do that something-whatever that something is. Can anyone give a real world example? is he going to force some inactive guy to take part in the I dunno the second coming or opening up missionary work in China? Every time God applies a consequence for someone refusing to do something they don't want to do, that person finds their agency reduced by their own choices. The 1/3 part of the hosts of heaven exercised their agency to follow Lucifer and God allowed them.They now have NO agency - no physical bodies to progress forward with, no option for marriage or family, no hope of redemption. By exercising their agency they have basically lost all future decision making rights. Or on a smaller scale, the man who uses his agency to kill will lose his future agency, by imprisonment, damnation, etc. Agency is a gift to the righteous, not to the wicked. When Christ was given his agency and he did EXACTLY what the Father commanded he received more blessings, more options, more ways forward, more progression than we can even imagine. Choose to follow our own path and watch our agency begin to erode.And we know that "every knew will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ". Doesn't sound to me like non-Christians get to choose on that. They may still be able to choose to follow or not follow Christ, but their freedom to recognize him won't remain. Edited November 10, 2015 by JLHPROF 1
Monster Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Every covenant we subscribe to was introduced at some point by another human being. If you believe that these individuals truly were representing god then you should probably do what they say and keep covenants. But if you think they are just mortal men defining their own religion then I see no point in cheering about fabricated covenants. So it boils down again to if they are prophets or not. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 And what about the hymn "O say what is truth" which says "God will force no man to heaven"? That's not "O Say What is Truth," it's "Know This, That Every Soul is Free." 1
rodheadlee Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 2 Nephi 31:13Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. Mosiah 18:10Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you? D&C 20:37And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. D&C 20:77O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.Thank you.
Jude2 Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Covenants should be individual. I think we like to see it as the covenants we've made with God are the same that others have made because they went through the same ordinances. Well, we all have individual perspective on what's going on and what we're agreeing to. I don't see the point of condemning people like many on this board tend to do when it comes to covenant breaking. Condemner don't know what individuals have covenanted.Do you mean we can be cafeteria Mormons, choosing and picking what we want to covenant to and throwing out the rest?
carbon dioxide Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Covenants may not matter with man as much as they matter with God. Man might not see it as a big deal but God will use it at the judgment bar to make important decisions.
stemelbow Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Do you mean we can be cafeteria Mormons, choosing and picking what we want to covenant to and throwing out the rest? I personally don't know anyone who is not. I mean, I despise labels so it's tough to say someone is a cafeteria Mormon when Mormon works just fine. Who among us doesn't hear what we want to hear and often disregards the rest? Over time and through repetition we might start catching much of what we didn't hear, say in the temple ceremony, but we'll never feel complete in our knowledge and dealings with God until it's all done. We're very specifically weak, each of us, and we only know so much. It limits our ability to really commit, thus our sin. It also limits our ability to truly understand why. Often without why we are left wondering if committing to something in particular is of God or is of man. Some may say they just commit to all, but whose to say they hear all? Or understand? Without understanding we may be committing to the wrong thing, not realizing what we're really supposed to commit to. 1
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