Conversion

[Tony Frank]

 

Our Trinitarian brothers and sisters in various denominations have often misconstrued or misunderstood our doctrine, but I feel like the Trinity is one area where us Latter-day Saints have misunderstood their doctrine.

 

Trinitarians have no problem with the notion that Jesus and the Father are separate personages or beings. They have no issue with Jesus praying to the Father. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all separate persons in the Trinity, yet they are all equally God. How this union exists is a mystery only to be discerned by faith and revelation rather than human reasoning.

 

Where Latter-day Saints deviate from the Trinity is our "demystifying" of the Trinitarian union, as well as our non-opposition to monolatry or henotheism. Yet, if discourse and dialogue is to continue into the future we have to drop our parroting of the notion that the Trinitarian notion of deity is somehow a worship of some Transformer-Megazord-esque mishmash of the Three Persons of God.

 

I agree that God is not "some Transformer-Megazord-esque mishmash of the Three Persons of God."

[Tony Frank]

I've had to stop members from conflating trinitarianism and modalism in their denouncement of different religious doctrines many times.  It drives me crazy when i hear a member pull out the old 'why would Jesus pray to Himself?' answer to debunking the Trinitarian view of God.

 

I've also actually argued with professed trinitarians when they have described their beliefs as Modalism, trying to explain the difference and how modalism is seen as a heresy by most Trinitarian denominations.  

 

This is one of those topics that a lot of people don't really understand, even if they've grown up in the religion.

 

What is Modalism?

[mfbukowski]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Horse_Prophecy

[mfbukowski]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Horse_Prophecy

What is Modalism?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I must say, despite various terminological attempts at clarification, that diagram of the Trinity that folks always pull out helps me not the single tiniest bit. It's as if someone is telling me, "A, B, and C are all equally D, but also, at the exact same time, A ≠ B ≠ C." 

 

(The way it's drawn also makes it look like 'God' is yet another Person amidst the confusion; a Holy Quadrinity?)

But then, I never was very good at the maths. Methinks I am just dull of wit. 

 

Still, if I'm misunderstanding the Trinity, it's because the darn thing isn't meant to be understood. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[MiserereNobis]

I must say, despite various terminological attempts at clarification, that diagram of the Trinity that folks always pull out helps me not the single tiniest bit. It's as if someone is telling me, "A, B, and C are all equally D, but also, at the exact same time, A ≠ B ≠ C." 

 

(The way it's drawn also makes it look like 'God' is yet another Person amidst the confusion; a Holy Quadrinity?)

But then, I never was very good at the maths. Methinks I am just dull of wit. 

 

If I'm misunderstanding the Trinity, it's because the darn thing isn't meant to be understood. 

 

The diagram is too simplistic, but it at least tries to get the point across that each Person is God but each Person is different from the Others.  I personally dislike the diagram because it appears to say that the Trinity is as easy as understanding the diagram, and that is definitely not true.

 

In the end, the Holy Trinity is a mystery, so your last comment has some  truth to it.  It's not that it isn't "meant" to be understood, it's just that our intelligence and way of thinking can't understand it fully.  We can only approach it through various ways.  Theology and philosophy try, but sometimes I think poetry and metaphor and paradox work best.

[strappinglad]

Gee, a basic doctrine that nobody understands, even those who understand it. Tell me it isn't so !

[MiserereNobis]

Gee, a basic doctrine that nobody understands, even those who understand it. Tell me it isn't so !

 

Ah, here we go again

 

I'm not sure why people think a religion having a mystery is such a silly thing.

 

A basic doctrine of the LDS church:  those highest in the celestial kingdom will be exalted and live with their families forever.

 

Do you understand what that means?  If you do, please explain it.  What is the process of exaltation? What changes happen in body, mind, and soul?  Where exactly will we be living?  What will our relationship to God be?  How will our families be?  What exactly is a resurrected body?  What is a resurrected body like that is not exalted?

 

How about another basic doctrine of the LDS church:  God didn't create us ex nihilo -- instead, he organized intelligences.

 

What exactly is an unorganized intelligence?  How did God organize it?  What were its properties before and after organization?  How does an intelligence differ from matter?  How is spirit refined matter?  What's the difference between refined and unrefined matter?

 

Now, obviously I don't need answers to these (because there are none ).  I'm just pointing out that LDS basic doctrines are full of mysteries, too, so there's no reason to get snarky about another religion's basic doctrines.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

It's not that it isn't "meant" to be understood, it's just that our intelligence and way of thinking can't understand it fully.

 

But if God created us from Nothing, then He purposely caused our intelligence and way of thinking to exist as they are, ie, incapable of understanding His own Being, and we're back to deliberate obfuscation, which just strikes me as, at the very least, not very sporting, y'know?

 

Edit: Whoops, posted this before I saw the new posts. I agree there's mystery everywhere, but I think the ones we've got are less ... um ... mysterious? *laugh* 

Exaltation = Made High = living off in some nice place Up There with the fam, presumably a planet of some sort (yes, we have a sci-fi religion, but ... I mean, we're living on a planet now, so it's not completely weird, right?). Elimination of senescence is at least conceivable in human terms (search biomedical gerontologist Aubrey de Grey), so maybe we'll get there someday in bodies pretty much like these, except we won't have any of this pesky organ failure. Seems like our relationship with God might be pretty much the same as here - Father figure to look up to as a role model. They've been theorizing for decades about decoupling consciousness from the brain, so 'intelligence' might be some sorta glowy energy field thingamajig inherent to existence as one of the constituent elements of the universe taking part in that whole conservation of matter and energy thing.  

 

In other words, I have no idea what is going on. But I still think these are ever-so-slightly more comprehensible than le Trinity. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[3DOP]

This has never been a thread about the Trinity. Halconero was only illustrating that Tony's understanding of the Catholic faith as a child was assuredly faulty. No one from the Catholic side is trying to do anything except correct a common misrepresentation. That is why Mormons have been siding with the Catholics. They don't think we are right but they think our beliefs deserve to be defined by us and not somebody with bad memories of his experience of Catholicism fifty years ago.

[MiserereNobis]

But if God created us from Nothing, then He purposely caused our intelligence and way of thinking to exist as they are, ie, incapable of understanding His own Being, and we're back to deliberate obfuscation, which just strikes me as, at the very least, not very sporting, y'know?

 

That's only true if you believe that ex nihilo creation implies no free will.  The Catholic Church rejects that idea.

 

I'm not trying to convince you (or anyone) that these views are correct.  I'm just trying to point out that there are very reasonable and intelligent people who believe them.  Some of the greatest minds of Western Civilization have believed them.  The doctrine may be wrong, but it's not childishly stupid, either.

 

The mind of humans is not like the mind of God.  I think both LDS and Catholics can agree on this.  My ways are not your ways, and all.  From the Catholic point-of-view, our limited minds cannot understand the fullness of God.  I think LDS have a similar idea, though obviously its not about the Trinity.  When LDS say they look forward to the next life so they can understand things, I believe they are saying the same things as Catholics.  There are simply things in this life that we just won't understand.

 

Heck, even quantum physics says we can't know everything with certainty, so if God's not being very sporting, he's even written into the fundamental laws of the physical universe.  And if we can't know everything with certainty about an electron, why should we presume to be able to know everything about God with certainty?  God is quite a bit more complex and mysterious than an electron

Edited November 3, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

You're right, Rory, this shouldn't be about the Trinity (and honestly, I never quite enjoy Trinity threads).

 

Perhaps we should just leave it at the conclusion that Tony doesn't quite know what he's talking about when it comes to Catholics.

[Tony Frank]

Ah, here we go again

 

I'm not sure why people think a religion having a mystery is such a silly thing.

 

A basic doctrine of the LDS church:  those highest in the celestial kingdom will be exalted and live with their families forever.

 

Do you understand what that means?  If you do, please explain it.  What is the process of exaltation? What changes happen in body, mind, and soul?  Where exactly will we be living?  What will our relationship to God be?  How will our families be?  What exactly is a resurrected body?  What is a resurrected body like that is not exalted?

 

How about another basic doctrine of the LDS church:  God didn't create us ex nihilo -- instead, he organized intelligences.

 

What exactly is an unorganized intelligence?  How did God organize it?  What were its properties before and after organization?  How does an intelligence differ from matter?  How is spirit refined matter?  What's the difference between refined and unrefined matter?

 

Now, obviously I don't need answers to these (because there are none ).  I'm just pointing out that LDS basic doctrines are full of mysteries, too, so there's no reason to get snarky about another religion's basic doctrines.

 

A basic doctrine of Christianity is this. Christ said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

 

We just think it is odd that someone would put forth a doctrine, "the Holy Trinity is a mystery," that is so contrary to what Christ said.

[halconero]

I must say, despite various terminological attempts at clarification, that diagram of the Trinity that folks always pull out helps me not the single tiniest bit. It's as if someone is telling me, "A, B, and C are all equally D, but also, at the exact same time, A ≠ B ≠ C." 

 

(The way it's drawn also makes it look like 'God' is yet another Person amidst the confusion; a Holy Quadrinity?)

But then, I never was very good at the maths. Methinks I am just dull of wit. 

 

Still, if I'm misunderstanding the Trinity, it's because the darn thing isn't meant to be understood.

The diagram is useful is explaining WHAT the doctrine is, but not HOW the doctrine is. The how is the mystery of faith and revelation. Of course we as Latter-day Saints have an explanation for the "how" which deviates from Creedal Christianity.

[saemo]

A basic doctrine of Christianity is this. Christ said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

 

We just think it is odd that someone would put forth a doctrine, "the Holy Trinity is a mystery," that is so contrary to what Christ said.

No, it isn't contrary. What do we know about God, through Jesus Christ? Salvation, of course. God is merciful. God loves us, unconditionally and immeasurably. Further, we know God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe what God has revealed about Himself.

[halconero]

This has never been a thread about the Trinity. Halconero was only illustrating that Tony's understanding of the Catholic faith as a child was assuredly faulty. No one from the Catholic side is trying to do anything except correct a common misrepresentation. That is why Mormons have been siding with the Catholics. They don't think we are right but they think our beliefs deserve to be defined by us and not somebody with bad memories of his experience of Catholicism fifty years ago.

Exactly what I was trying to do. In order for a fruitful conversation to occur it would be useful to have a correct understanding of the doctrines involved.

[Calm]

A basic doctrine of Christianity is this. Christ said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

We just think it is odd that someone would put forth a doctrine, "the Holy Trinity is a mystery," that is so contrary to what Christ said.

That would depend on how you define "know", imo, and when this knowledge will be complete.

I am LDS, I neither think it odd nor do I find sacred mystery to be contrary to what the scriptures say.

So if by "we" you are speaking generically for LDS, please it will be less confusing and more accurate to say " I"

Edited November 3, 2015 by Calm

[halconero]

The Greek makes me lean to Tony on this one, despite his mistake understanding of Trinitarian doctrine. The connotations associated with this version of the Greek verb "to know" has more to do with intimate familiarity, clear understanding, and unambiguous connection. I can see how some might still allow for sacred mystery in that case...but...it doesn't have the right vibe in the original language.

[MiserereNobis]

A basic doctrine of Christianity is this. Christ said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

 

We just think it is odd that someone would put forth a doctrine, "the Holy Trinity is a mystery," that is so contrary to what Christ said.

 

The key there is: "this is life eternal."  Right now, we are living in mortality.  We do not have life eternal.  To quote Paul, we see through a glass darkly.  Right now, we do not know God fully.  In Heaven, in the Beatific Vision, then we will have direct experience of God and then we will know Him.

 

Surely you don't claim that you or any other currently living LDS knows God perfectly?  We have to wait until heaven to have that experience (or get a peek here or there through contemplation and mystical experience)

[strappinglad]

Sorry if I appeared to be picking on Catholics. I was aiming at LDS also. How often have we discussed what a particular doctrine was and had significant disagreements over its meaning?

[danielwoods]

The Greek makes me lean to Tony on this one, despite his mistake understanding of Trinitarian doctrine. The connotations associated with this version of the Greek verb "to know" has more to do with intimate familiarity, clear understanding, and unambiguous connection. I can see how some might still allow for sacred mystery in that case...but...it doesn't have the right vibe in the original language.

 

To me it's similar to knowing your father and mother as a child does. When we are children we don't understand everything, not even close, but we know who our parents are, because we have a personal/direct connection to them. We know them. To me this is eternal life. To know Him. 

[bluebell]

What is Modalism?

 

Modalism-

 

"The doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature."

 

It's basically the idea that God manifests Himself in three modes (Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost) but is a single person.   When someone says "Why would God pray to Himself" they are asking a question concerning modalism, not trinitarianism.  

[Ahab]

Tony, if Catholics understood the Trinity as well as we (LDS) do then they would agree with our understanding of the Trinity.

But give them a break. A lot of their confusion is the result of semantics.

[mfbukowski]

I must say, despite various terminological attempts at clarification, that diagram of the Trinity that folks always pull out helps me not the single tiniest bit. It's as if someone is telling me, "A, B, and C are all equally D, but also, at the exact same time, A ≠ B ≠ C." 

 

(The way it's drawn also makes it look like 'God' is yet another Person amidst the confusion; a Holy Quadrinity?)

But then, I never was very good at the maths. Methinks I am just dull of wit. 

 

Still, if I'm misunderstanding the Trinity, it's because the darn thing isn't meant to be understood.

Dull of wit you ain't. Always love your stuff even when I disagree. You are always original.

[mfbukowski]

This has never been a thread about the Trinity. Halconero was only illustrating that Tony's understanding of the Catholic faith as a child was assuredly faulty. No one from the Catholic side is trying to do anything except correct a common misrepresentation. That is why Mormons have been siding with the Catholics. They don't think we are right but they think our beliefs deserve to be defined by us and not somebody with bad memories of his experience of Catholicism fifty years ago.

I resemble that remark. No offense was intended, and I included some Mormon problems as well to balance it

And it was 60 years ago. Hey give me credit for my experience on this rock.

The bottom line is that every human on the planet understands what it means to not have the words to adequately describe something, Mormons included.

How can personal revelation be "true" if it's only in our heads? That is the biggie for us.

That's why I harp on it, but still no one gets it.

So that is our "Trinity". We require a whole different epistemology that few Mormons actually understand to explain it, but we get hung up on how three beings can be "one".

Who cares? How is a revelation "true"? That is what we should be worrying about!