Conversion

[Ahab]

Well, that's a bit of a straw-man. The difference is not "mainly" whether or not the R is capitalized. The words refer to two different things. There is the deposit of faith, which is the Revelation given to us by Christ and the Apostles, and then there is private revelation. They are different and we simply use the R to distinguish that (though the term deposit of faith is better because then there isn't confusion).

I said and meant that the 2 different ideas you guys have for what revelation/Revelation is is distinguished by whether or not the R is capitalized. So when some guy asks you guys verbally what you guys mean by revelation/Revelation you guys first have to determine whether or not what he is asking about has a capital R. Or just cover both types while explaining what you think makes the difference.

Aren't people allowed to receive revelation for those under their jurisdiction (or whatever the term would be in Mormonism)? Parents for their kids, a bishop for his ward, the president for the whole church, that sort of thing. That doesn't seem personal -- that seems like is for a group. Or do you mean something different when you say "all revelation is personal"?

I mean we are taught to not to refer to anything as revelation from God unless we have received personal revelation from God to tell us that it is revelation from God. We're taught to not rely on hearsay, or someone else's testimony, unless we receive our own personal revelation from God that what someone else is saying is scripture or revelation from God. We are taught to rely on God, petsonally, through personal revelation, rather than on a Church to tell us what is true.

No problem. Catholics and Mormons have lots of similar beliefs.

And lots of big differences too, apparently.

[3DOP]

We all have our own lingo. I hear Mormons talking about the spoken words of a prophet as "scripture"' I am tempted to point out that scripture comes from the word "scribe", one who writes. Accordingly, scripture HAS to be written. But...it does not have that limited meaning for Mormons. Scripture means authoritative revelation whether spoken or written. There is no point in going into etymologies to prove what is the "correct" usage of scripture. We just have to be willing to try to understand each other as we learn the other's way of expression.

I can communicate in the LDS lingo. But as a Catholic, when quoting Catholics representing the Catholic Church, we have to translate for you into LDS.

Ahab, Miserere has done this. He has explained Catholic vocabulary about revelation. If you insist that Catholic lingo is the same as Mormon lingo, you can never understand us. I hope you would like to understand?

3DOP

[Ahab]

We all have our own lingo. I hear Mormons talking about the spoken words of a prophet as "scripture"' I am tempted to point out that scripture comes from the word "scribe", one who writes. Accordingly, scripture HAS to be written. But...it does not have that limited meaning for Mormons. Scripture means authoritative revelation whether spoken or written. There is no point in going into etymologies to prove what is the "correct" usage of scripture. We just have to be willing to try to understand each other as we learn the other's way of expression.

I can communicate in the LDS lingo. But as a Catholic, when quoting Catholics representing the Catholic Church, we have to translate for you into LDS.

Ahab, Miserere has done this. He has explained Catholic vocabulary about revelation. If you insist that Catholic lingo is the same as Mormon lingo, you can never understand us. I hope you would like to understand?

3DOP

Yes I would like to understand what people mean when they say something, and when I don't think I do I usually ask them to clarify what they mean until I feel pretty sure that I understand what they mean.

To me that's what discussion is for, regardless of whether or not I agree with who I communicate with.

And btw, I agree that scripture generally refers to any God-inspired script, regardless of whether or not it is written in the texts that you guys refer to as Revelation with a capital R, and I write scripture pretty much daily. Most of us do, in fact.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ahab

[bluebell]

We all have our own lingo. I hear Mormons talking about the spoken words of a prophet as "scripture"' I am tempted to point out that scripture comes from the word "scribe", one who writes. Accordingly, scripture HAS to be written. But...it does not have that limited meaning for Mormons. Scripture means authoritative revelation whether spoken or written. There is no point in going into etymologies to prove what is the "correct" usage of scripture. We just have to be willing to try to understand each other as we learn the other's way of expression.

I can communicate in the LDS lingo. But as a Catholic, when quoting Catholics representing the Catholic Church, we have to translate for you into LDS.

Ahab, Miserere has done this. He has explained Catholic vocabulary about revelation. If you insist that Catholic lingo is the same as Mormon lingo, you can never understand us. I hope you would like to understand?

3DOP

 

I completely agree with your point.  But i just have to throw it out there that everything the prophet 'speaks' as a prophet to the church is also written down as well (and comes to the members in print even twice a year).  

[Tony Frank]

More than what, exactly? Or more precisely, Who? Jesus, being the perfect Word of God revealed, what do you think is less than perfect about the Revelation of Jesus Christ? What novelty do you seek?

 

In a previous post, you wrote that what we "know about God through Jesus Christ" is "salvation" and that "God is merciful" and "loves us unconditionally and immeasurably." And "we know God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit." 

 

You also wrote, "We believe what God has revealed about Himself."

 

So, do you refuse to accept that God has revealed more than what you wrote, which is "salvation" and that "God is merciful" and "loves us unconditionally and immeasurably" and that "God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

 

Or maybe it is what He has revealed about salvation. How do you think we find salvation through Jesus Christ? 

[saemo]

In a previous post, you wrote that what we "know about God through Jesus Christ" is "salvation" and that "God is merciful" and "loves us unconditionally and immeasurably." And "we know God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

You also wrote, "We believe what God has revealed about Himself."

So, do you refuse to accept that God has revealed more than what you wrote, which is "salvation" and that "God is merciful" and "loves us unconditionally and immeasurably" and that "God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

Or maybe it is what He has revealed about salvation. How do you think we find salvation through Jesus Christ?

What more, are you talking about? Pretty much, I anticipate any answer you could give, is not a new public revelation.

Salvation is given freely. We neither earn or merit it. We do respond to God's graces, or not.

Edited November 9, 2015 by saemo

[saemo]

I said and meant that the 2 different ideas you guys have for what revelation/Revelation is is distinguished by whether or not the R is capitalized. So when some guy asks you guys verbally what you guys mean by revelation/Revelation you guys first have to determine whether or not what he is asking about has a capital R. Or just cover both types while explaining what you think makes the difference.

I mean we are taught to not to refer to anything as revelation from God unless we have received personal revelation from God to tell us that it is revelation from God. We're taught to not rely on hearsay, or someone else's testimony, unless we receive our own personal revelation from God that what someone else is saying is scripture or revelation from God. We are taught to rely on God, petsonally, through personal revelation, rather than on a Church to tell us what is true.

And lots of big differences too, apparently.

The R/r is helpful, but if it makes it easier for you, there is public and private revelation. Jesus Christ, is for Christianity, the fullness of God's Word. He is public revelation. Private revelation is through the Holy Spirit, who leads to all Truth. Truth has a name, Jesus Christ. Edited November 9, 2015 by saemo

[Stargazer]

Interesting story.  As a lifetime Latter day Saints who is fairly confident the LDS Church is not what it claims to be I am now a skeptic. But I do practice my LDS religion still though it become increasingly more difficult.  I do think if I were to join another Christian Church it would be the Catholic Church. The more I learn of it the more I like it.

 

Oddly enough, that would be my choice as well, if I ever lost my faith in the LDS Church, and still wanted to fellowship with another Christian church.  

 

Of course, I consider this to be a very unlikely event.  I have had too many spiritual witnesses that I recognize as pure truth.  And I'm sorry that you've lost your convictions -- but you know that!

[Stargazer]

I definitely appreciate your conversion story.  My late wife's conversion story had a flavor like it.  She was German, and a member of the Lutheran Church.  Well, that's what we call it in the USA. In Germany they call it the Evangelische Kirche, or "Evangelical Church".  

 

Like you, she was convinced from the scriptures that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were three distinct personages.  When she learned about what her church taught about the Godhead she knew that couldn't be right, and she stopped attending.  But she didn't go looking for another Church.  However, eventually, the LDS Church found her.  By this time she had married an American serviceman (not me), and one day US missionaries came knocking on the door.  She told them that she couldn't have any men in the house.  So they got the sister missionaries on the case, and these taught her the Gospel.  It turned out that her husband was LDS, just inactive, and had never told her he was a Mormon.  She was baptized in 1966.  Through a convoluted chain of events many years later he kinda went off into a midlife crisis, divorced her, and that's when I came into the picture.

 

I've posted my own conversion story somewhere around here, but I won't distract from yours by bringing it up in your thread.

[Stargazer]

It was a good vacation.

 

What?  Were you gone?  I was gone for a week (last week).  Finally got attracted back like iron filings to a bar magnet.

[Stargazer]

Now I just need to find a reason to go meet with the team. I was born in Inglewood, and my dad worked in Culver City, so we know Tito's quite well. And, as an added bonus, I'm pretty sure the knives and forks are plastic, so little chance for physical injury. Our office is in Playa del Rey, which is pretty close to Culver City.

 

Well, darnit, now I'm jealous.  I'd love to meet both of you at some point.  Probably ain't gonna happen.  Sigh.

[Ahab]

The R/r is helpful, but if it makes it easier for you, there is public and private revelation.

I think the main focus should be on how we can know what revelation from God really is, which I think should be by something other than hearsay or any second-hand witness. We each need to have some way we can know, personally, for ourselves.

Jesus Christ, is for Christianity, the fullness of God's Word. He is public revelation. Private revelation is through the Holy Spirit, who leads to all Truth. Truth has a name, Jesus Christ.

I agree but still everyone in the public needs a personal way to get to know Jesus with the help of the Holy Spirit. A way to know if what some people call Revelation with a capital R is really revelation from God by a personal assurance from God.

[saemo]

I think the main focus should be on how we can know what revelation from God really is, which I think should be by something other than hearsay or any second-hand witness.

I would say, in addition to, rather than something other, but otherwise agree.

We each need to have some way we can know, personally, for ourselves. I agree but still everyone in the public needs a personal way to get to know Jesus with the help of the Holy Spirit. A way to know if what some people call Revelation with a capital R is really revelation from God by a personal assurance from God.

I agree. In Catholic lingo well call this "some way", discernment.

[saemo]

I definitely appreciate your conversion story.  My late wife's conversion story had a flavor like it.  She was German, and a member of the Lutheran Church.  Well, that's what we call it in the USA. In Germany they call it the Evangelische Kirche, or "Evangelical Church".  

 

Like you, she was convinced from the scriptures that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were three distinct personages.  When she learned about what her church taught about the Godhead she knew that couldn't be right, and she stopped attending.  But she didn't go looking for another Church.  However, eventually, the LDS Church found her.  By this time she had married an American serviceman (not me), and one day US missionaries came knocking on the door.  She told them that she couldn't have any men in the house.  So they got the sister missionaries on the case, and these taught her the Gospel.  It turned out that her husband was LDS, just inactive, and had never told her he was a Mormon.  She was baptized in 1966.  Through a convoluted chain of events many years later he kinda went off into a midlife crisis, divorced her, and that's when I came into the picture.

 

I've posted my own conversion story somewhere around here, but I won't distract from yours by bringing it up in your thread.

I'm the opposite. Could never believe God was just some guy, like any other guy, just a lot older with more experience.

[Ahab]

I'm the opposite. Could never believe God was just some guy, like any other guy, just a lot older with more experience.

God our Father is more than "just" those things, but he is still all of those things if by "guy" you are referring to a male of our species.

[saemo]

God our Father is more than "just" those things, but he is still all of those things if by "guy" you are referring to a male of our species.

What more?

Is not the Father in Mormonism the same as any ole dad? I love my dad and all, but it is to me, quite delusional to say someone will worship him as a god someday. Really, I find believing in that kind of god to be impossible, and have thought so as long as I can remember.

See the thread on Mormons getting their own planet to grasp what I never believed, or could believe, to this day. I remember very clearly, sitting in Sunday school classes thinking the people who were teaching were off their rockers and maybe should quit talking they sounded so dumb. This was around 5th grade, the same year a teacher at school taught us about melanin and evolution, while at church, we were being taught about dark skin being curses. I held no idea that anyone at church had any credibility to speak about anything, from that point on.

Edited November 11, 2015 by saemo

[mfbukowski]

Transubstantiation.