mfbukowski Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 A basic doctrine of Christianity is this. Christ said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We just think it is odd that someone would put forth a doctrine, "the Holy Trinity is a mystery," that is so contrary to what Christ said.I am not part of that "we".You have a lot to learn about these issues, and I pray you do not lose your testimony before your journey is through. Modalism and the White Horse Prophecy is just the beginning.But you need to be willing to learn.
danielwoods Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Tony, if Catholics understood the Trinity as well as we (LDS) do then they would agree with our understanding of the Trinity.But give them a break. A lot of their confusion is the result of semantics. So are you saying that Catholics don't understand the Trinity as well as you do?
jkwilliams Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 So are you saying that Catholics don't understand the Trinity as well as you do? That's what he seems to be saying.
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Tony, if Catholics understood the Trinity as well as we (LDS) do then they would agree with our understanding of the Trinity.But give them a break. A lot of their confusion is the result of semantics.Have you considered going to Syria to lecture Muslims on the concept of jihad and how it should be applied? 1
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Thanks, mfb. I also hope I didn't come off as rude to our resident Catholic folk, and I apologize if I did. I really am just confused, which is definitely not an unusual feeling for me. 1
Ahab Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Have you considered going to Syria to lecture Muslims on the concept of jihad and how it should be applied?Yes but it's not very prominent on my To Do list right now. Good luck looking for a companion to go with you.
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) Yes but it's not very prominent on my To Do list right now. Good luck looking for a companion to go with you.I toyed with the idea but decided to go paddleboarding instead. Edited November 4, 2015 by The Nehor
Tony Frank Posted November 4, 2015 Author Posted November 4, 2015 No, it isn't contrary. What do we know about God, through Jesus Christ? Salvation, of course. God is merciful. God loves us, unconditionally and immeasurably. Further, we know God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe what God has revealed about Himself. And you refuse to accept that God revealed more than that.
MiserereNobis Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Thanks, mfb. I also hope I didn't come off as rude to our resident Catholic folk, and I apologize if I did. I really am just confused, which is definitely not an unusual feeling for me. No, you're not rude at all
MiserereNobis Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 And you refuse to accept that God revealed more than that. We're Catholic. Of course we don't believe that God revealed "more than that" to the LDS church, just like you don't believe in the Catholic doctrines. No surprise there. We do believe that the Holy Ghost guides the Catholic Church in developing, expanding, and explaining the doctrines of Christ, which is why we have Ecumenical Councils and Popes that clarify teachings. We wouldn't call it "revelation" but that's mainly semantics.
Damien the Leper Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I must say, despite various terminological attempts at clarification, that diagram of the Trinity that folks always pull out helps me not the single tiniest bit. It's as if someone is telling me, "A, B, and C are all equally D, but also, at the exact same time, A ≠ B ≠ C." (The way it's drawn also makes it look like 'God' is yet another Person amidst the confusion; a Holy Quadrinity?)But then, I never was very good at the maths. Methinks I am just dull of wit. Still, if I'm misunderstanding the Trinity, it's because the darn thing isn't meant to be understood. Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary has argued that Paul was a Binitarian. Have fun with that!
Damien the Leper Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw Learn from the twins and St. Patrick!
saemo Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 And you refuse to accept that God revealed more than that.More than what, exactly? Or more precisely, Who? Jesus, being the perfect Word of God revealed, what do you think is less than perfect about the Revelation of Jesus Christ? What novelty do you seek?
Ahab Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 We're Catholic. Of course we don't believe that God revealed "more than that" to the LDS church, just like you don't believe in the Catholic doctrines.No surprise there.We do believe that the Holy Ghost guides the Catholic Church in developing, expanding, and explaining the doctrines of Christ, which is why we have Ecumenical Councils and Popes that clarify teachings. We wouldn't call it "revelation" but that's mainly semantics.If you and other members of the Catholic church received personal revelation personally from God the Father through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, as faithful LDS do, then why wouldn't you call it "revelation"?I think it's mainly about something other than semantics.
Ahab Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 More than what, exactly? Or more precisely, Who? Jesus, being the perfect Word of God revealed, what do you think is less than perfect about the Revelation of Jesus Christ? What novelty do you seek?Personal revelation personally from God the Father through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, daily.It's not what I would call a "novelty" but maybe that is mainly semantics.
MiserereNobis Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) If you and other members of the Catholic church received personal revelation personally from God the Father through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, as faithful LDS do, then why wouldn't you call it "revelation"?I think it's mainly about something other than semantics. It is about semantics. The word "revelation" means something different to Catholics than to Mormons. Let's use the word inspiration and we're on common ground. We believe, absolutely, that people receive inspiration directly from God about their own lives. We also believe that our leaders receive inspiration. We also have prophecies (a whole bunch!) and visits by Jesus and Mary and angels and saints. This was all covered in another thread Edited November 4, 2015 by MiserereNobis
Ahab Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 It is about semantics. The word "revelation" means something different to Catholics than to Mormons. Let's use the word inspiration and we're on common ground. We believe, absolutely, that people receive inspiration directly from God about their own lives. We also believe that our leaders receive inspiration. We also have prophecies (a whole bunch!) and visits by Jesus and Mary and angels and saints. This was all covered in another thread Inspiration is a form (or particular kind) of revelation, though. So again I ask why you would not call that revelation?I still think it is mainly for some reason other than semantics. Either state what you mean or stop challenging the experts in what they believe.
MiserereNobis Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Inspiration is a form (or particular kind) of revelation, though. So again I ask why you would not call that revelation?I still think it is mainly for some reason other than semantics. Either state what you mean or stop challenging the experts in what they believe. Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on Revelation. I suggest scrolling down to the body and reading The Christian Revelation section.
Ahab Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 MiserereNobis.Are my ideas not clearly conveyed to you?Do you not understand what I have been saying? Why do you say it is mainly semantics? What do you mean by revelation and what do you think the Catholic church means by revelation and why wouldn't you call what you receive revelation at least in terms of what the Catholic church means by revelation?I believe conversion to the Lord comes through personal revelation, through baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit, so without revelation there is no conversion and not even a knowledge of what it takes to be converted to the Lord. The Spirit is the teacher a person needs to be converted and the Spirit teaches through personal revelation.So why don't you or why wouldn't you say you receive revelation? And how would you explain how whatevwr you would call revelation is different than what LDS refer to as revelation?
Ahab Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 MiserereNobis.Are my ideas not clearly conveyed to you?Do you not understand what I have been saying? Why do you say it is mainly semantics? What do you mean by revelation and what do you think the Catholic church means by revelation and why wouldn't you call what you receive revelation at least in terms of what the Catholic church means by revelation?I believe conversion to the Lord comes through personal revelation, through baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit, so without revelation there is no conversion and not even a knowledge of what it takes to be converted to the Lord. The Spirit is the teacher a person needs to be converted and the Spirit teaches through personal revelation.So why don't you or why wouldn't you say you receive revelation? And how would you explain how whatevwr you would call revelation is different than what LDS refer to as revelation?
MiserereNobis Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) MiserereNobis. Are my ideas not clearly conveyed to you? Do you not understand what I have been saying? I guess not, because you really haven't made much of a point other than "why don't you call it revelation." My response was that "revelation" is a nuanced, technical term in Catholicism, which is why it boils down to semantics. What do you mean by revelation and what do you think the Catholic church means by revelation and why wouldn't you call what you receive revelation at least in terms of what the Catholic church means by revelation? Did you read the link I gave? That would answer those questions. Here are some relevant parts: "Revelation may be defined as the communication of some truth by God to a rational creature through means which are beyond the ordinary course of nature." "It remains here to distinguish the Christian Revelation or "deposit of faith" from what are termed private revelations. This distinction is of importance: for while the Church recognizes that God has spoken to His servants in every age, and still continues thus to favour chosen souls, she is careful to distinguish these revelations from the Revelation which has been committed to her charge, and which she proposes to all her members for their acceptance. That Revelation was given in its entirety to Our Lord and His Apostles. After the death of the last of the twelve it could receive no increment. It was, as the Church calls it, a deposit — "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude, 2) — for which the Church was to "contend" but to which she could add nothing. Thus, whenever there has been question of defining a doctrine, whether at Nicæa, at Trent, or at the Vatican, the sole point of debate has been as to whether the doctrine is found in Scripture or in Apostolic tradition. The gift of Divine assistance (see I), sometimes confounded with Revelation by the less instructed of anti-Catholic writers, merely preserves the supreme pontiff from error in defining the faith; it does not enable him to add jot or tittle to it. All subsequent revelations conferred by God are known as private revelations, for the reason that they are not directed to the whole Church but are for the good of individual members alone, They may indeed be a legitimate object for our faith; but that will depend on the evidence in each particular case. The Church does not propose them to us as part of her message. It is true that in certain cases she has given her approbation to certain private revelations." As you can see Revelation (capital R) ended with Christ and the Apostles. This Revelation (we call it the deposit of faith and it is found in the Bible and in the Apostolic Tradition) are the truths of Christianity. Yet, those truths needed to be developed, explained, clarified, and taught to people in every age, so we have the Magesterium (Popes, bishops, ecumenical councils, etc), which does those things. They do not add to it -- they cannot add to it -- but they can help people understand it and they can develop it and all this is done under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. So, the issue of semantics is that when you talk to a Catholic about on-going revelation, the Catholic might think you are talking about Revelation (capital R) and would then deny it because Revelation (the deposit of faith) is full. It can only be developed, not added to. Christ and the Apostles gave it all to us. But then you might interpret this denial of on-going revelation as meaning that the heavens are sealed and God doesn't speak to humans anymore. That idea is patently false and is rejected by Catholicism, as you can see in my quoted section above: "the Church recognizes that God has spoken to His servants in every age, and still continues thus to favour chosen souls." God still talks to us. He still inspires us, teaches us, guides us. He still leads His Church. I believe conversion to the Lord comes through personal revelation, through baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit, so without revelation there is no conversion and not even a knowledge of what it takes to be converted to the Lord. The Spirit is the teacher a person needs to be converted and the Spirit teaches through personal revelation. Catholics believe this, too, especially since you used personal (our term would be private) revelation. So why don't you or why wouldn't you say you receive revelation? And how would you explain how whatevwr you would call revelation is different than what LDS refer to as revelation? I hope my quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia and my explanations have now answered these questions. I will add that different religions have different terminologies and Mormons use the word revelation much more often than Catholics do. Edited November 4, 2015 by MiserereNobis
Ahab Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) I guess not, because you really haven't made much of a point other than "why don't you call it revelation." My response was that "revelation" is a nuanced, technical term in Catholicism, which is why it boils down to semantics.Did you read the link I gave? That would answer those questions. Here are some relevant parts:As you can see Revelation (capital R) ended with Christ and the Apostles. This Revelation (we call it the deposit of faith and it is found in the Bible and in the Apostolic Tradition) are the truths of Christianity. Yet, those truths needed to be developed, explained, clarified, and taught to people in every age, so we have the Magesterium (Popes, bishops, ecumenical councils, etc), which does those things. They do not add to it -- they cannot add to it -- but they can help people understand it and they can develop it and all this is done under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.So, the issue of semantics is that when you talk to a Catholic about on-going revelation, the Catholic might think you are talking about Revelation (capital R) and would then deny it because Revelation (the deposit of faith) is full. It can only be developed, not added to. Christ and the Apostles gave it all to us. But then you might interpret this denial of on-going revelation as meaning that the heavens are sealed and God doesn't speak to humans anymore. That idea is patently false and is rejected by Catholicism, as you can see in my quoted section above: "the Church recognizes that God has spoken to His servants in every age, and still continues thus to favour chosen souls." God still talks to us. He still inspires us, teaches us, guides us. He still leads His Church.Catholics believe this, too, especially since you used personal (our term would be private) revelation.I hope my quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia and my explanations have now answered these questions. I will add that different religions have different terminologies and Mormons use the word revelation much more often than Catholics do.Okay, I understand now, although I do not agree with that understanding.Kinda tricky for you guys I think to have 2 different definitions of revelation/Revelation, distinguished mainly by whether or not the R is capitalized. To us all revelation is personal and the trick for us is in determining whether or not it really is revelation from God, which all of us are encouraged to determine personally, even the stuff with a capital R.Thank you for taking the time to teach me a little bit more about Catholic belief. Edited November 4, 2015 by Ahab
MiserereNobis Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Kinda tricky for you guys I think to have 2 different definitions of revelation/Revelation, distinguished mainly by whether or not the R is capitalized. Well, that's a bit of a straw-man. The difference is not "mainly" whether or not the R is capitalized. The words refer to two different things. There is the deposit of faith, which is the Revelation given to us by Christ and the Apostles, and then there is private revelation. They are different and we simply use the R to distinguish that (though the term deposit of faith is better because then there isn't confusion). To us all revelation is personal and the trick for us is in determining whether or not it really is revelation from God, which all of us are encouraged to determine personally, even the stuff with a capital R. Aren't people allowed to receive revelation for those under their jurisdiction (or whatever the term would be in Mormonism)? Parents for their kids, a bishop for his ward, the president for the whole church, that sort of thing. That doesn't seem personal -- that seems like is for a group. Or do you mean something different when you say "all revelation is personal"?Thank you for taking the time to teach me a little bit more about Catholic belief. No problem. Catholics and Mormons have lots of similar beliefs.
Kyle Kenley Kopitke Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 My conversion story is in one of my books that I have written: "President Kopitke 2016: Towards an American Renaissance." So I will not go over the details here, but I will share that one day in my bunk bed in Germany while serving in The United States Army (Semper Ra), I was pondering and praying over The Book of Mormon. The Spirit rolled in and burnt my bossom. It was so spiritual of a witness, I went and asked to be baptised. Spiritual Witnesses are highly personal, and they are individual events. I know what I felt. So here I am. I am so Blessed to have been led to the Restored Church of the Christ. One of the things that helps me the most, is I keep a copy of the standard works in my car; I read one verse each time before I start my car.
MiserereNobis Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 My conversion story is in one of my books that I have written: "President Kopitke 2016: Towards an American Renaissance." . You're running for president...?
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