alter idem Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 It seems to me that the Professor blew it. If he really felt that strongly about BYU's policy, he should have come and spoken and taken the opportunity to address the policy and be on record speaking against it, giving his reasons why. That would have been much more helpful to the faculty he claims are 'working to change the policy' to have gotten publicity for it. I think it was less work to just write a letter and skip the conference. I think BYU's policy is problematic and I don't think it has always been in place, I think it was changed in the last couple of decades. I don't blame BYU for wanting to not subsidize a former member, but I think the policy, as it is being implemented now is punitive. I don't agree with automatically kicking them out, though I think BYU has every right to demand the former LDS student pay non-member tuition and they should be aware that if they don't stringently follow the Honor code, they would be OUT. Otherwise they should be able to stay and finish their degree. I think the scholarships which are paid for by the church should have stipulations that make it contingent on their staying a member of the church in good standing, otherwise it can be revoked. That would not mean the end of their education, but they would have to get loans and pay them back--that to me seems totally fair. This way, the punitive side is taken out, the student has a choice. BYU, as a private school, has a right to demand certain things of their students, but students can make their own choices, provided they are willing to accept the consequences. Students who lose their faith will have options. They can remain a member in good standing while attending the school or they can leave the faith and get loans to pay the higher costs and continue to live the standards, respecting the atmosphere which BYU is attempting to create on campus. 2
ERayR Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44894On this thread they discuss BYU professors that may no longer believe, especially since the church essays. The entrapment they must feel, if they opened up about it. They'd lose their career, retirement, rep, maybe friends and family. To me it reeks of corruption to a person's soul to have to go through life like that. They weren't given the facts up front when they signed on. Which btw, makes me wonder after seeing someone suggesting it that Tom Phillips wasn't a complete idiot for going after the church, it might have spurred the church to put out the essays to cover their bases. I have a problem with your characterization of the problem. Any entrapment felt is one of their own making. It was/is not BYU who has changed the conditions of their employment nor is BYU forcing them to remain in an unpleasant situation. The solution is simple. Instead of going to war with their employer find another employer. If they do that then their experience at BYU can be used to improve their chances to obtain a good position elsewhere. Once they have gone to war with BYU or any other employer they have broadcast the trouble that a new employer might expect from them. 1
ERayR Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Maybe we should let people make their own decisions instead of deciding for them where they would be more happy. The thing that would make me most happy right now is to have half your salary deposited in my account. Can you take care of that right away. 1
why me Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44894On this thread they discuss BYU professors that may no longer believe, especially since the church essays. The entrapment they must feel, if they opened up about it. They'd lose their career, retirement, rep, maybe friends and family. To me it reeks of corruption to a person's soul to have to go through life like that. They weren't given the facts up front when they signed on. Which btw, makes me wonder after seeing someone suggesting it that Tom Phillips wasn't a complete idiot for going after the church, it might have spurred the church to put out the essays to cover their bases.Of course all this is speculation. No facts. Have professors lost their faith? Where is the proof? However, you do seem to get sweept away with such forums. It must be difficult. I know of Marxist professors who have lost their jobs because of their political beliefs. Of course they could have remained silent or published different articles in journals that were not Marxist in overtone. This may have saved their jobs. BYU professors can certainly apply elsewhere. In fact, I would suggest that if any BYU professors no longer believe they should do so. There are plenty of universities and colleges in Utah and in the surrounding states. No one is trapped at BYU. I admire the Marxist professors who stand by their beliefs regardless if it may cost them their jobs. I do believe that the JSP came before Tom. And I am sure that the essays were in the works before him too. Why be so negative toward the lds church? Do such forums and people really have such an effect on you? It is good to have a critical (questioning) mind toward what you read. Edited October 10, 2015 by why me
thesometimesaint Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) In the contest of ideas it is sad that some have to resort to censorship for their ideas to prevail, and not the strength of their ideas. Edited October 10, 2015 by thesometimesaint
jkwilliams Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 In the contest of ideas it is sad that some have to resort to censorship for their ideas to prevail, and not the strength of their ideas.Agreed. It is ironic that such censorship often is presented as being fair and open and equal.
Jeanne Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44894On this thread they discuss BYU professors that may no longer believe, especially since the church essays. The entrapment they must feel, if they opened up about it. They'd lose their career, retirement, rep, maybe friends and family. To me it reeks of corruption to a person's soul to have to go through life like that. They weren't given the facts up front when they signed on. Which btw, makes me wonder after seeing someone suggesting it that Tom Phillips wasn't a complete idiot for going after the church, it might have spurred the church to put out the essays to cover their bases.I am thinking that perhaps Tom maybe knew what he was doing..I mean..the essays are not a bad thing ..and finally, something gives alittle,
jkwilliams Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Can you use a dictionary?? A real seminary trains Catholics to be priests, orJews to be rabbis. That is definitely teaching a single point of view. There are none so blind as those who will not seeWhy all the cheap shots? You obviously see BYU serving a primarily ecclesiastical function, and you apparently believe it is not a real university that has a goal to expose students to the marketplace of ideas. Anyone who has attended BYU can tell you are off base. No one is disputing its religious purpose, but to reduce the university to a place where one learns to think and act like a Mormon shows a profound misunderstanding of what goes on there.As I noted, any religious content in BYU's graduate programs is incidental. The law school teaches people how to become attorneys, not Mormon attorneys. You are free to ridicule me and my knowledge and understanding of any subject you please. Heaven knows you have done that pretty consistently, but don't drag down a great university just to score points. Edited October 10, 2015 by jkwilliams
Tacenda Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I think I'm going in an angry phase about the church again. I'm sorry that I came across so negative.
jkwilliams Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I think I'm going in an angry phase about the church again. I'm sorry that I came across so negative.It will pass. Always does.
Jeanne Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) After reading the link Tascenda posted, I am inclined to think that Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Thought cannot co-exist at BYU. Yet they depend upon eachother. Edited October 10, 2015 by Jeanne
why me Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) I think I'm going in an angry phase about the church again. I'm sorry that I came across so negative.No surprise. You tend to do a lot of reading on the internet. And you seem to be influenced what online people say that may not be so positive about the church.You seem to want to believe what these people say. I would recommend a rest from such sites. Edited October 10, 2015 by why me 2
why me Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I am thinking that perhaps Tom maybe knew what he was doing..I mean..the essays are not a bad thing ..and finally, something gives alittle,Tom and the website that he was apart of knew what they wanted to do: cause harm to the lds church and its members. They were hostile. One can be 'critical' without trying to cause harm. It is called contructive criticism. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Tom and the website that he was apart of knew what they wanted to do: cause harm to the lds church and its members. They were hostile. One can be 'critical' without trying to cause harm. It is called contructive criticism.I doubt many here believe criticism of the church is ever constructive. Elder Oaks doesn't seem to think it is. 1
Senator Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Go away. You remind me of the chattering parrot character from the Disney movie Aladdin. Always a comeback always a one liner but no substance."Go away" ?? Maybe it's time to take a breather?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 "Go away" ?? Maybe it's time to take a breather?Have to say the "chattering parrot" comparison did seem apt, though.
jkwilliams Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Have to say the "chattering parrot" comparison did seem apt, though.The hell with it. I don't need this.
Senator Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Have to say the "chattering parrot" comparison did seem apt, though.Whether it was apt is questionable. But it certainly was a hostile slap down.
why me Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) I doubt many here believe criticism of the church is ever constructive. Elder Oaks doesn't seem to think it is.Okay, so elder Oaks doesn't think so. People can still give constructive criticism. It happens all the time on this board. And on the critic boards, the criticism is rather negative. Do you agree with elder oaks? Edited October 11, 2015 by why me
Calm Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) .As I noted, any religious content in BYU's graduate programs is incidental. The law school teaches people how to become attorneys, not Mormon attorneys. .But the law school is not the only place where learning takes place and the learning is not just the law, but to a great extent almost every behaviour observed by a student is one being done by a Mormon (or the few nonMormons who have agreed to more or less live a Mormon lifestyle while there) and thus there are all these Mormon nuances that get embedded into behaviour at a highly transyitional time of life. For example, there is no Mormon language classes but students in my experience pick up just from conversations habits of speech unique to BYU. The context of BYU, if one abides by the honour code, is one of living and interacting with to a very great extent other Mormons. This does not happen anywhere else that I am aware of to this extent, even in small towns with high LDS populations. Edited October 10, 2015 by Calm 1
jkwilliams Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 But the law school is not the only place where learning takes place and the learning is not just the law, but to a great extent almost every behaviour observed is one being done by a Mormon and thus there ate all these Mormon nuances that get embedded into behaviour at a highly transyitional time of life. For example, there is no Mormon language classes but students in my experience pick up just from conversations habits of speech unique to BYU. The context of BYU, if one abides by the honour code, is one of living and interacting with to a very great extent other Mormons. This does not happen anywhere else that I am aware of to this extent, even in small towns with high LDS populations.I agree completely. I am just saying that it's reductive and inaccurate that BYU teaches one perspective only and is akin to a seminary.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) The hell with it. I don't need this.I probably say that to myself at least three times a day when reading this board. Yet I keep coming back for more. Let me weigh in, if I might, on the subject at hand. I do believe it inaccurate to charge BYU with censorship or to imply that it does not expose its students to the ideas of the world. But it is a perhaps unique milieu in which generally like-minded believers instruct other like-minded believers. This, as I have been at pains to point out on this thread, is in line with the school's mission, which is to prepare and edify young Latter-day Saints so they can go into the world and be a credit to the Church and use their talents and training to build the Kingdom of God. Obviously, continuing to subsidize the education of those who have apostatized from the faith -- or even to continue to offer it to them at full cost -- works against this mission. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable and proper that the university would formulate enrollment standards and contracts to preclude this sort of thing. It is a distortion to characterize enforcement of the terms of this contract as punitive. It is merely invoking the contract. As I said earlier, a contract is worthless unless it is enforced. Edited October 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Okay, so elder Oaks doesn't think so.I don't think so either, for what it's worth. Speaking against the Lord, His Church or His anointed is rarely constructive. Edited October 10, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
jkwilliams Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I probably say that to myself at least three times a day when reading this board. Yet I keep coming back for more.Let me weigh in, if I might, on the subject at hand.I do believe it inaccurate to charge BYU with censorship or to imply that it does not expose its students to the ideas of the world.But it is a perhaps unique milieu in which generally like-minded believers instruct other like-minded believers. This, as I have been at pains to point out on this thread, is in line with the school's mission, which is to prepare and edify young Latter-day Saints so they can go into the world and be a credit to the Church and use their talents and training to build the Kingdom of God.Obviously, continuing to subsidize the education of those who have apostatized from the faith -- or even to continue to offer it to them at full cost -- works against this mission. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable and proper that the university would formulate enrollment standards and contracts to discourage this sort of thing. It is a distortion to characterize enforcement of the terms of this contract as punitive. It is merely invoking the contract. As I said earlier, a contract is worthless unless it is enforced.I don't disagree with any of this. I have said over and over that BYU's policy makes perfect sense given the mission of the university. I have said that I think people should be allowed to finish the semester.What has bothered me is that some people seem to agree with the critics that BYU is not a real university but an institution more like a seminary that reinforces one belief only. That is just not true, but I guess that means I am just a chattering parrot who should go away. I can't believe I am being attacked for defending BYU.
ERayR Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Why all the cheap shots? You obviously see BYU serving a primarily ecclesiastical function, and you apparently believe it is not a real university that has a goal to expose students to the marketplace of ideas. Anyone who has attended BYU can tell you are off base. No one is disputing its religious purpose, but to reduce the university to a place where one learns to think and act like a Mormon shows a profound misunderstanding of what goes on there.As I noted, any religious content in BYU's graduate programs is incidental. The law school teaches people how to become attorneys, not Mormon attorneys.You are free to ridicule me and my knowledge and understanding of any subject you please. Heaven knows you have done that pretty consistently, but don't drag down a great university just to score points. Come on jk you are not that obtuse. Even I got it. BYU exposes students to all these precious ideas but from an LDS view point.
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