jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 You doth protest too much.No one outside BYU thinks that. What percentage of the faculty is non LDS? It doesn't much matter what people outside BYU think. You, for example, did not attend BYU but seem to have some very negative views of BYU's mission and the quality of education it provides. Why that is I don't know. True, there aren't many non-LDS professors there, but there are some. One of my favorite professors was John Murphy, a Catholic expert on Willa Cather who came to BYU as a visiting professor and liked the school so much that he stayed. But, maybe I do protest too much. I just find it ironic that I'm defending my alma mater from people who claim to support the school's mission and sponsoring institution yet have a very low opinion of it. Very strange.
sethpayne Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I don't see a knee jerk reaction based on a the say-so of a pressure group without doing further investiagation on his own as being very respectable. This is a little hypocritical of you, Scott. Remember when you jumped to the defense of the bigoted SLPD officer who refused to perform his civic duties? The DN didn't even do basic journalism. No questions about why he didn't use the union appeal process etc... So if you call this reaction not respectable, I think we have to say the same thing about DN reporting in the specific case I mention.
Tacenda Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Has this always been BYU's policy? I remember reading somewhere that the change to this policy happened in the 90's? If it did change, then why?Read this...http://mormon-alliance.org/casereports/volume3/part1/v3p1c06.htm
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 It doesn't much matter what people outside BYU think. You, for example, did not attend BYU but seem to have some very negative views of BYU's mission and the quality of education it provides. Why that is I don't know.True, there aren't many non-LDS professors there, but there are some. One of my favorite professors was John Murphy, a Catholic expert on Willa Cather who came to BYU as a visiting professor and liked the school so much that he stayed. But, maybe I do protest too much. I just find it ironic that I'm defending my alma mater from people who claim to support the school's mission and sponsoring institution yet have a very low opinion of it. Very strange.Wrong as usual.I have à wonderful opinion of BYU, and its mission.The difference is that I understand it's mission and you do not.
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 And if it doesn't matter what people outside BYU think why are you defending it so vigorously?
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I always thought of BYU was providing an experience similar to that of monks and nuns in training. Returned Missionaries already have an advanced knowledge of the Gospel, BYU gives them a type of Master's Class in spiritual and intellectual discipline needed. We don't have a professional clergy because we don't need one with the kind of religious literacy rate Mormons have, Are we training non-member students at BYU to be Mormon monks? I don't think so. The closest thing we have to that is the MTC. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 And if it doesn't matter what people outside BYU think why are you defending it so vigorously? Fair point. I guess I just don't like people denigrating my alma mater. Whoever does it, saying it's a seminary that promotes a single point of view is unfair and devalues the school and its mission. I received a good education there, and I loved my years at BYU, and I suppose I take it personally when someone tells me my degrees are essentially advanced seminary. 2
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 They do have the freedom to change their religion. No one is stopping them. They will not go to jail if they change their religion. People need to stop making this comparison. I'm sure president Samuelson will let them change their religion if they ask him. They have the same freedom to choose their religion that everyone else in the United States has without repercussions from the law.This is a good example of separation between church and state. Religious freedom is upheld and BYU can still dictate it's religious convictions and integrity.People need to stop calling for religious freedom and instead ask for a policy change, because the current one doesn't restrict an individual's right to choose religious affiliation. BYU students don't have this freedom, because by definition, they will no longer be BYU students. As American citizens they have this freedom, but as BYU students they do not.
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 You are exactly right. BYU is in effect a seminary. A seminary that gives out accounting degrees but not theology degrees?
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 A seminary that gives out accounting degrees but not theology degrees? This is what I find offensive and degrading to BYU and its mission. It is not in effect a seminary, and saying that is disrespectful to every person who has ever attended BYU.
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 This is what I find offensive and degrading to BYU and its mission. It is not in effect a seminary, and saying that is disrespectful to every person who has ever attended BYU. Yes, it wouldn't speak highly of the value of BYU diploma if it was just a glorified indoctrination center.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Yes, it wouldn't speak highly of the value of BYU diploma if it was just a glorified indoctrination center. I know I shouldn't be offended by that kind of stuff, but it did get to me. Mark does enjoy pushing buttons.
thesometimesaint Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 This is what I find offensive and degrading to BYU and its mission. It is not in effect a seminary, and saying that is disrespectful to every person who has ever attended BYU. Exactly. I had a choice to attend UCD or BYU. I chose BYU and don't regret my decision. I'll stack my undergrad education at BYU against any other undergrad university in the country.
omni Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Yes, there is the fear that believers will be "contaminated" in some way if unbelievers are allowed to stay, which shows some insecurity, I think. But also it's a curious position in that one of the supposed benefits to attending BYU is that it will strengthen your testimony. It seems counter productive to kick the people out who need that benefit the most. It would be like a ward not letting inactive people attend ward functions.This.IMO, not only is the policy punitive, but it just doesn't make sense. Is a person more or less likely to return to the church if they've been kicked out of BYU for a loss of belief? Is a person more or less likely to become "anti" if they are kicked out of BYU?
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Exactly. I had a choice to attend UCD or BYU. I chose BYU and don't regret my decision. I'll stack my undergrad education at BYU against any other undergrad university in the country. I'd put my undergraduate and graduate education at BYU against any other school, too. I was just thinking that, unlike undergraduate studies, grad school at BYU has no required religion courses. I don't remember religion coming up at all, off the top of my head, other than the professor who talked about the symbols of the compass and square were commonplace in public during the 19th century, but later they became sacralized, and pretty much every church building that had one displayed over the door (a common practice) had scrubbed them off by the 1920s. He used that as an example of institutional ability to forget things.
thesometimesaint Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 This.IMO, not only is the policy punitive, but it just doesn't make sense. Is a person more or less likely to return to the church if they've been kicked out of BYU for a loss of belief? Is a person more or less likely to become "anti" if they are kicked out of BYU? Depends on what they are kick out for. Obviously apostasy makes it very hard to return to the Church.
Senator Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 This.IMO, not only is the policy punitive, but it just doesn't make sense. Is a person more or less likely to return to the church if they've been kicked out of BYU for a loss of belief? Is a person more or less likely to become "anti" if they are kicked out of BYU? Again, there's no need to get kicked out of BYU. Do not have your name removed from the church and do what you are asked to do and you'll be fine.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Again, there's no need to get kicked out of BYU. Do not have your name removed from the church and do what you are asked to do and you'll be fine. I suppose the danger is that someone might discover your unbelief and turn you in. Then you might have some trouble.
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 This. IMO, not only is the policy punitive, but it just doesn't make sense. Is a person more or less likely to return to the church if they've been kicked out of BYU for a loss of belief? Is a person more or less likely to become "anti" if they are kicked out of BYU? The policy is clearly opposed to Jesus' teaching of leaving the 99 for the one.
thesometimesaint Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'd put my undergraduate and graduate education at BYU against any other school, too. I was just thinking that, unlike undergraduate studies, grad school at BYU has no required religion courses. I don't remember religion coming up at all, off the top of my head, other than the professor who talked about the symbols of the compass and square were commonplace in public during the 19th century, but later they became sacralized, and pretty much every church building that had one displayed over the door (a common practice) had scrubbed them off by the 1920s. He used that as an example of institutional ability to forget things. BYU didn't offer post grad study in Social Work when I was there. So I had to go elsewhere.
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Depends on what they are kick out for. Obviously apostasy makes it very hard to return to the Church. Why make it even harder? The problem with the honor code generally is that it comes between the students and the atonement.
Senator Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I suppose the danger is that someone might discover your unbelief and turn you in. Then you might have some trouble. Best to not be loose lipped.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Why make it even harder? The problem with the honor code generally is that it comes between the students and the atonement. As I said, my father says BYU doesn't believe in the atonement. lol 1
rongo Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'd put my undergraduate and graduate education at BYU against any other school, too. That's why I find the digs by some on this thread (FBYU supporters) to be ridiculous. E.g., offending Mark Juergensmeyer makes us look like Bob Jones University; BYU on a resume already is ridiculous to most people, this FBYU flap is making this worse, etc. BYU is very respectful, even outside the Mormon corridor. For what it's worth, I've also attended Arizona State for two semesters of post-baccalaureate work. Much, much easier than BYU ---- it was a joke in comparison.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 That's why I find the digs by some on this thread (FBYU supporters) to be ridiculous. E.g., offending Mark Juergensmeyer makes us look like Bob Jones University; BYU on a resume already is ridiculous to most people, this FBYU flap is making this worse, etc. BYU is very respectful, even outside the Mormon corridor. For what it's worth, I've also attended Arizona State for two semesters of post-baccalaureate work. Much, much easier than BYU ---- it was a joke in comparison. My younger brother transferred to Cal State Northridge for the first semester of his sophomore year because he missed surfing and his girlfriend. After a semester, he transferred back to BYU, saying, "No one there took their education seriously, not even the professors."
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