jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 The question is not whether students now are violating policy. The question is whether the policy is fair to these students. I'm not sure it's a good idea for BYU to treat students who lose faith so callously. But, I see many are on board with the policy. It seems obvious on the face of it that a student could honestly and earnestly seek to learn and grow and in so doing leave the faith. It's a mistake to treat such a student as an outcast. Such a student should be an asset, as its likely the student would go on to contribute society. And, lest we so callously forget, it's possible the student could decide to come back to the fold. Again I invoke the leaving the 99 to find the one.Ah, oh well, SOmetimes I get going as if someone's going to listen and change their mind. I'm glad you started this discussion. I've said what I thought, and you got me thinking about an issue I haven't thought of at all. Yes, I know people who have gone through a faith transition while at BYU, and I know it was hard for them, but I've never suggested that BYU change its policy. It is what it is. I think it's unnecessarily harsh, but obviously I'm in the minority here. And if nothing else, this thread made me appreciate BYU and its mission more than I did.
filovirus Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 BYU is a Mormon Church school. Members who attend can strengthen their convictions about living the Doctrine of Christ through many of the advantages that a private school can offer.Non-members can attend to be exposed to the Mormon faith, perhaps even joining themselves with the church.Members who have apostatized and asked that their names be removed from church records are now against the very thing the church teaches. In essence they outright reject the Lord's church to follow after the vain imaginations found in the church of the devil. 1
MosiahFree Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 At last. A reader of W!Yes it works! Wittgenstein made me a Mormon, I know that probably sounds strange to a lot of people. To quote the Investigations again (#133): The real discovery is the one that makes me capable of stopping doing philosophy when I want to.--The one that gives philosophy peace, so that it is no longer tormented by questions which bring itself in question.--Instead, we now demonstrate a method, by examples; and the series of examples can be broken off--Problems are solved (difficulties eliminated), not a single problem. There is not a philosophical method, though there are indeed methods, like different therapies.This begins to capture what it was like when I started to explore the scriptures unique to the Church. When I read through the Old Testament and New Testament, the questions I had began to pile up even more so. When I turned to the great Christian writers like Augustine and Aquinas, I found almost no resolutions but simply the restatement of the same problems the Greeks struggled with. As I worked through the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and D&C, I found something that didn't suffer from the same Greek problems.Mormon theology seems to operate in a way that Wittgenstein thinks philosophy should have, that it is a kind of therapy that resolves issues instead of ossifying them in the same Greek methods. That's when I knew Joseph Smith was the real deal, he was light years ahead of his time and puts the vast majority of Christian thinkers to shame in a way only a Prophet of God could.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 In essence they outright reject the Lord's church to follow after the vain imaginations found in the church of the devil. Gee, you shouldn't be so shy with your opinions. Tell us what you really think.
iWriteStuff Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 The question is not whether students now are violating policy. The question is whether the policy is fair to these students. I'm not sure it's a good idea for BYU to treat students who lose faith so callously. But, I see many are on board with the policy. It seems obvious on the face of it that a student could honestly and earnestly seek to learn and grow and in so doing leave the faith. It's a mistake to treat such a student as an outcast. Such a student should be an asset, as its likely the student would go on to contribute society. And, lest we so callously forget, it's possible the student could decide to come back to the fold. Again I invoke the leaving the 99 to find the one.Ah, oh well, SOmetimes I get going as if someone's going to listen and change their mind. I'm all about leaving the 99 to find the one, but you realize that in this case the one left voluntarily, right? They weren't just honestly seeking truth. They asked to be removed from the flock permanently. They don't want anyone coming after them, showing up at their door, etc. That's what removing your name from the rolls implies.
HappyJackWagon Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 (edited) I'm all about leaving the 99 to find the one, but you realize that in this case the one left voluntarily, right? They weren't just honestly seeking truth. They asked to be removed from the flock permanently. They don't want anyone coming after them, showing up at their door, etc. That's what removing your name from the rolls implies.Does that matter? Does the sheep not wander off on its own? How do you envision the 1 becoming separated from the 99? Edited October 9, 2015 by HappyJackWagon 3
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 I'm all about leaving the 99 to find the one, but you realize that in this case the one left voluntarily, right? They weren't just honestly seeking truth. They asked to be removed from the flock permanently. They don't want anyone coming after them, showing up at their door, etc. That's what removing your name from the rolls implies. Why must you assume they weren't honestly seeking truth? I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. When they claim they left while honestly seeking truth, I believe them. As it is, we all see through a glass darkly and each of us are just going on our own individual path. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Does that matter? Does the sheep not wander off on its own? How do you envision the 1 becoming separated from the 99? Maybe should revise the parable of the lost sheep to say that the one has opened up a slot for a more faithful sheep. 3
filovirus Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Gee, you shouldn't be so shy with your opinions. Tell us what you really think. I usually try to beat around the bush a little better. But ultimately people need to know what it really does mean to reject Christ's Doctrine.The day I found out that one of my dearest friends left the church and is now actively seeking to lead others away was one of the saddest days I can possibly remember. I honestly think I've shed more tears for him than anyone else in my lifetime.That said I do still think there is room at BYU for those who lose faith on a case by case basis, and that the policy can be updated. I would support it either way. I'm not the one making the tough decisions. 1
ERayR Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Gee, you shouldn't be so shy with your opinions. Tell us what you really think. jk why not you, I and everybody else does it.
rockpond Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 In essence they outright reject the Lord's church to follow after the vain imaginations found in the church of the devil. They weren't just honestly seeking truth. Given your opinion of people who leave the Church, I can understand why you feel they should be expelled from BYU. But you might consider re-examining your beliefs about people who leave the Church. Many leave while honestly seeking the truth. From President Uchtdorf in October of 2013: In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves. 3
rockpond Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I usually try to beat around the bush a little better. But ultimately people need to know what it really does mean to reject Christ's Doctrine.The day I found out that one of my dearest friends left the church and is now actively seeking to lead others away was one of the saddest days I can possibly remember. I honestly think I've shed more tears for him than anyone else in my lifetime.That said I do still think there is room at BYU for those who lose faith on a case by case basis, and that the policy can be updated. I would support it either way. I'm not the one making the tough decisions. Amen.
ERayR Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Does that matter? Does the sheep not wander off on its own? How do you envision the 1 becoming separated from the 99? Good question, Perhaps it got pushed out by the BYU honor code 1
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 jk why not you, I and everybody else does it. I don't know about you, but I always say what I think, sometimes too much so. 1
ERayR Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I don't know about you, but I always say what I think, sometimes too much so. But sometimes I just bite my tongue an move on to the next post.
MosiahFree Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 You seriously think BYU is like a seminary? Would a seminary have a week long seminar on Marxism from a man who compared Joseph Smith to Stalin? You guys are killing me. Absolutely friend. Just like Bernie Sanders speaking at Liberty University, BYU isn't afraid of letting someone like Terry Eagleton express his views on campus. But there is a huge difference between an invited speaker and a student; one is there to express their considered opinions and one is there to be molded intellectually and spiritually. Let's be honest here; Eagleton at BYU is like putting a guppy into a shark tank, his ideas will have zero potency when it stands in the light of truth.But I'm surprised you don't see just how revolutionary the BYU model is, it is like the spiritual formation of Johan Gottfried Herder on steroids. By making every Mormon graduate into a competent theologian through life long training, we don't create a class of "priests" dependent on tithes with no viable skills, but instead make professionals who have a kind of mental ambidexterity; they can switch from their trained profession to the role of articulate theologian when each context is needed.BYU undermines the classical model of higher education, it subverts the power of the clergy and democratizes secular and spiritual knowledge.
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 By making every Mormon graduate into a competent theologian through life long training Let's not get crazy here 1
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Let's not get crazy here If I understand these guys correctly, they are saying that BYU teaches through a spiritual or theological lens, so that perspective is ingrained in the graduate. In some subjects I would agree with that, but not all. As for democratizing knowledge, I'm guessing MosiahFree is not a BYU grad.
ttribe Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Absolutely friend. Just like Bernie Sanders speaking at Liberty University, BYU isn't afraid of letting someone like Terry Eagleton express his views on campus. But there is a huge difference between an invited speaker and a student; one is there to express their considered opinions and one is there to be molded intellectually and spiritually. Let's be honest here; Eagleton at BYU is like putting a guppy into a shark tank, his ideas will have zero potency when it stands in the light of truth.But I'm surprised you don't see just how revolutionary the BYU model is, it is like the spiritual formation of Johan Gottfried Herder on steroids. By making every Mormon graduate into a competent theologian through life long training, we don't create a class of "priests" dependent on tithes with no viable skills, but instead make professionals who have a kind of mental ambidexterity; they can switch from their trained profession to the role of articulate theologian when each context is needed.BYU undermines the classical model of higher education, it subverts the power of the clergy and democratizes secular and spiritual knowledge. <--------(Has one of his degrees from BYU, considers your description unrecognizable)
MosiahFree Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Let's not get crazy here I'm being serious here. I was deeply impressed on how thorough the Mormon style of catechesis is, it is far more rigorous and deep than what you'll find at any Presbyterian or Baptist Church.
MosiahFree Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 If I understand these guys correctly, they are saying that BYU teaches through a spiritual or theological lens, so that perspective is ingrained in the graduate. In some subjects I would agree with that, but not all. As for democratizing knowledge, I'm guessing MosiahFree is not a BYU grad. I wish to God I was, I converted later in life when I had already finished my terminal degrees and worked my way through the Western canon.
ERayR Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Good question, Perhaps it got pushed out by the BYU honor code Thanks for the rep point stemelbow but you must not have recognized my sarcasm
Gray Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I'm being serious here. I was deeply impressed on how thorough the Mormon style of catechesis is, it is far more rigorous and deep than what you'll find at any Presbyterian or Baptist Church. While I think lay members of the church do pretty well against lay members of other churches, it still doesn't really compare to the deep understanding of theological matters and Biblical exegesis that many professional clergy get in their training. We never really get that deep into it, institutionally.
iWriteStuff Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Why must you assume they weren't honestly seeking truth? I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. When they claim they left while honestly seeking truth, I believe them. As it is, we all see through a glass darkly and each of us are just going on our own individual path.I don't think you understood my comment. I was suggesting that they did indeed seek truth. However, finding themselves in another camp of belief, took the extra step of purposefully disfellowshipping themselves. That more than gave them the benefit of the doubt, it gave them the integrity of following through on their convictions. Far from a condemnation. As per being the one sheep who intentionally abandons the flock in search of a different flock, I'm confident the Savior will seek them out. Whether they are willing to be guided back to the true flock is another matter, and I shall make no assumptions into the ease or difficulty of the task. Christ can do anything. And I encourage some of the 99 to help in the search efforts, as far as that sheep is willing to receive them. In the meantime, proselyting a disaffected student who has already renounced his faith but still wants the benefit thereof.... That's definitely a moral dilemma, but more on the part of the disaffected than for those keeping their commitments. 1
stemelbow Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 Thanks for the rep point stemelbow but you must not have recognized my sarcasmI feel ya. Even though I disagree I may even give out a rep for a good old sporting comment. I don't think it'll hurt your rep if I give you one 1
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