Who Really Chose The New Apostles?

[Scott Lloyd]

There are some men who see retirement as hell, but even they still in general want to be able to pick and choose what hours and how they work.  Apostles don't get that choice for the most part.  And traveling when one is older isn't half so fun as when younger, sitting in a chair for hours with muscles tightening up, eating food that one's digestion isn't quite tolerant of, being more sensitive to changes in tempature and weather.

 

Since it is typical now that those of the 12 have had experience in very time consuming callings already, they are likely not going in blind to what it means to have the majority of the hours of the rest of your life committed to the workings of the Church.

 

I find it hard to believe that many people would look forward to such a forever commitment, pretty much on par hours and attentionwise with having a toddler at the end the rest of the world is retiring....and the toddler never growing up.  Sure there are wonderful aspects of being a parent, but there are wonderful aspects of being a grandparent as well and it may be easier to appreciate the first at a younger age and the second at an older age.

As one whose travel opportunities are almost entirely for business and seldom for pleasure, I can attest that the pressures and duties of work are a substantial hindrance to taking joy in the journey. I suppose it's much the same for Church leaders.

[rockpond]

While this might be the case in some instances, I know of nothing to compel the belief that it is the case all of the time. I'm confident that there are at least some occasions when it is not that haphazard, when the Lord desires a specific person to serve in a specific calling at a specific time, and He will guide the one acting in His behalf to make that specific selection. This oft-quoted statement from the Prophet Joseph Smith would lend support to the idea that people were fore-ordained to minister in the callings in which they now find themselves serving:

 

Consider this: Some of those called into the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles will end up in the position of president of the Church; prophet, seer and revelator; holder of the priesthood keys in this gospel dispensation; having a marked influence in the history of the Church for a period of time. Do you really believe the Lord would leave that eventuality wholly up to the whims of whomever it is that is choosing the newest member of the quorum, or would He exercise some guiding influence in the choice?

 

Your thoughts on this statement by Jana Reiss:

 

But it’s not this simple. I do not believe that apostolic callings happen so very differently and miraculously than other callings occur in the Church. It is the combination of divine inspiration and human agency working together that makes a calling happen. When we issue callings in the Church, we do so under the guidance of prayer and the Spirit’s leading, but our own experiences and inclinations factor in as well.

 

http://janariess.religionnews.com/2015/10/05/naming-of-3-new-mormon-apostles-raises-questions-about-race-international-diversity/#sthash.BE4e731R.dpuf

[Russell C McGregor]

Well sure Scott. Is anyone surprised at your views or that you started this thread? Your constant theme is that you fall in line with WHATEVER the church and its leadership does and that they do no wrong. I except nothing less from you.

 

Well, it's nice to have a counterweight to those who find fault with WHATEVER the Church and its leadership does and that they do no right.

 

Never ask me who that might be...

[KevinG]

Revelation's dearest cousins are: 

-Inspiration

-Perspiration

-Relation

 

If I know of you, know your work, and have exposure to it, I am more likely to consider you when I ponder and pray about a calling.  There is no mystery or conspiracy in that.

[Scott Lloyd]

Your thoughts on this statement by Jana Reiss:

 

But it’s not this simple. I do not believe that apostolic callings happen so very differently and miraculously than other callings occur in the Church. It is the combination of divine inspiration and human agency working together that makes a calling happen. When we issue callings in the Church, we do so under the guidance of prayer and the Spirit’s leading, but our own experiences and inclinations factor in as well.

 

http://janariess.religionnews.com/2015/10/05/naming-of-3-new-mormon-apostles-raises-questions-about-race-international-diversity/#sthash.BE4e731R.dpuf

Suffice it to say I do not hold the statements or wisdom of Jana Reiss in very high esteem.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

Suffice it to say I do not hold the statements or wisdom of Jan Reiss in very high esteem.

 

So you would say that apostolic callings happen differently than other callings in the church?

[Scott Lloyd]

So you would say that apostolic callings happen differently than other callings in the church?

I believe they are apostles to the Lord Jesus Christ, not apostles to Thomas S. Monson or anybody else. And I believe He Himself selects them, as He did in His mortal ministry.

[KevinG]

The calling of Apostle is not one that happens out of the blue.  Many are called from the foundations of the earth.  Those who listen to the still small voice their entire lives, stay worthy of their office through obedience and repentance, magnify callings, make themselves available and useful in the small anonymous callings...  They grow in experience and stature, they grow in trust and trustworthiness.  They become ready and available for the time when they are needed to fill the seat in the quorum that someone else has vacated.

 

Their work ethic, history, faith, and faithfulness are not unknown to those around them.  But they didn't just appear on the scene overnight.  

 

As the church gains a longer history with leaders from around the world it will appear more diverse in its leadership.  But that is a function over time, and the Apostleship will reflect those who were Deacons 60-70 years ago, not the current demographic make up of the church today. 

[Buckeye]

While this might be the case in some instances, I know of nothing to compel the belief that it is the case all of the time. I'm confident that there are at least some occasions when it is not that haphazard, when the Lord desires a specific person to serve in a specific calling at a specific time, and He will guide the one acting in His behalf to make that specific selection. This oft-quoted statement from the Prophet Joseph Smith would lend support to the idea that people were fore-ordained to minister in the callings in which they now find themselves serving:

 

Consider this: Some of those called into the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles will end up in the position of president of the Church; prophet, seer and revelator; holder of the priesthood keys in this gospel dispensation; having a marked influence in the history of the Church for a period of time. Do you really believe the Lord would leave that eventuality wholly up to the whims of whomever it is that is choosing the newest member of the quorum, or would He exercise some guiding influence in the choice?

 

The Lord leaves even more important roles to whims of humanity. Case in point: mothers and fathers. 

 

And to be clear, I never said that the Lord couldn't specifically direct that there is only one person for a calling. It's just that in my experience that's very very rare. You readily concede that at least in some instances there are multiple appropriate choices (see bold). So, unless the decision-maker specifically says so, how do you decide which apostles were "the one and only" and which were "one among many good options"? Or to put in another way, if you're convinced that the newest 3 apostles were the only 3 the Lord would approve of, please point to any of the prior 97 apostles (in this dispensation) who were not so unique. And then explain the your basis for deciding between these two groups. And most importantly, explain why this should matter to the calling.

 

Seriously, if God can make an exalted couple out of any two (heterosexual) people who are willing to follow his word (to paraphrase President Kimball), then why couldn't he work through any number of worthy priesthood brothers who are available to serve as apostles? The Q12 is lesser than eternal couples, after all.

 

At the end of the day, at least the decision wasn't made by casting lots.

[Teancum]

Well, it's nice to have a counterweight to those who find fault with WHATEVER the Church and its leadership does and that they do no right.

 

Never ask me who that might be...

Oh I am sure you would toss me in that bunch. However even though I am a filthy apostate you would be wrong.

[Buckeye]

I believe they are apostles to the Lord Jesus Christ, not apostles to Thomas S. Monson or anybody else. And I believe He Himself selects them, as He did in His mortal ministry.

 

That's a dodge. The bishop of the clearfork ward is the Lord's bishop just as much. He's not the stake president's bishop. The bishop supposedly receives revelation directly from the Lord (with regard to his ward). So why would an apostle's call require different input from the Lord than a stake president, bishop, or primary choir director? I thought that God took interest in even the smallest sparrow.

[cinepro]

IIRC, one of them was a German.

 

To be fair, they do have this woman on the board (as well as a man):

 

 

 

Intersectionality Committee

Chairperson: Bryndis Roberts

The Intersectionality Committee seeks to ensure that all statements and actions of Ordain Women reflect an awareness of, a support for the efforts of, and inclusion of all groups who have been historically excluded from full participation in the activities and ordinances of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2015 by cinepro

[cinepro]

Good grief. The part all in caps didn't catch your attention?

 

[Stone holm]

I believe they are apostles to the Lord Jesus Christ, not apostles to Thomas S. Monson or anybody else. And I believe He Himself selects them, as He did in His mortal ministry.

 

Yes and after His mortal ministry, I seem to remember something about casting lots.  So do you think they drew straws for it?

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes and after His mortal ministry, I seem to remember something about casting lots.  So do you think they drew straws for it?

the Hamblin-Peterson column in the Deseret News some days ago had an enlightening treatment about the ancient custom of using lots as an instrument of divination whereby the mind and will of God was ascertained, not unlike the use of a seer stone or the urim and thummim. In fact there is an interesting connection between lots and the urim and thummim.

 

I'll leave it to you to Google the article. Suffice it to say your simplistic ridicule won't fly in this instance.

 

Edited to add:

 

I had some time, so I found the link for you.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

That's a dodge. The bishop of the clearfork ward is the Lord's bishop just as much. He's not the stake president's bishop. The bishop supposedly receives revelation directly from the Lord (with regard to his ward). So why would an apostle's call require different input from the Lord than a stake president, bishop, or primary choir director? I thought that God took interest in even the smallest sparrow.

I was asked my opinion on the matter and I gave my reasoning and said I know of nothing that would compel the belief that in every single instance, God merely leaves individuals to make decisions and choices on their own and then rubber stamps them. Prove the contrary if you're so sure I'm wrong.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

Have a question..what if (if anyone opposed) if one of the apposers was a former Bishop of an apostle?

[ksfisher]

Have a question..what if (if anyone opposed) if one of the apposers was a former Bishop of an apostle?

Then that person is invited to speak with their stake president and explain the reason for their vote.

[jkwilliams]

I was asked my opinion on the matter and I gave my reasoning and said I know of nothing that would compel the belief that in every single instance, God merely leaves individuals to make decisions and choices on their own and then rubber stamps them. Prove the contrary if you're so sure I'm wrong.

I always figured they did what every other church leader does: get a list of candidates, make a choice, and take it to the Lord in prayer for confirmation.

[rockpond]

Revelation's dearest cousins are: 

-Inspiration

-Perspiration

-Relation

 

If I know of you, know your work, and have exposure to it, I am more likely to consider you when I ponder and pray about a calling.  There is no mystery or conspiracy in that.

 

This has been my experience while serving in church leadership.

 

Additionally, leaders sometimes make mistakes with callings.  I see no reason to believe that the 15 are any different in that regard than the rest of us.

 

This thread, for me, seems to boil down to a common theme in Mormonism:  We'll gladly admit that our leaders are fallible in a broad, general sense.  But when discussing any particular action or teaching, there's an insistence that it must be absolutely, 100% correct.

 

It's interesting to watch.

 

I believe that Elders Rasband, Stevenson, and Renlund are great, loving men.  I believe they have proven themselves as faithful servants of the Lord and His church.  I believe that the Lord will qualify them for their service as Apostles.

 

I also believe that there are equally great, loving, faithful, spiritual men outside the U.S. who could also have been approved and qualified by the Lord.

[Buckeye]

I was asked my opinion on the matter and I gave my reasoning and said I know of nothing that would compel the belief that in every single instance, God merely leaves individuals to make decisions and choices on their own and then rubber stamps them. Prove the contrary if you're so sure I'm wrong.

 

Of course I can't prove you wrong, Scott. And you're still avoiding the issue. In your OP, you said "If you believe, as I do, that the Lord Jesus Christ selected the three new members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and made His will known through His prophet, seer and revelator, Thomas S. Monson .." which suggests that the Savior specifically selected the three new apostles rather than confirming a selection by President Monson. I stated in response my belief that apostles are selected by the prophet and the Lord's approval confirmed by the spirit - the same as with so many other callings in the church. You then conceded that that method happens sometimes (maybe most times ??), but persisted that it was still possible sometimes for the Lord to have one specific person in mind. I agreed. But I then asked what evidence you have that that is what happened with the three new apostles. You've presented none. I therefore see no purpose in going back and forth. 

 

And for the record, allowing mortal leaders to prayerfully make calling decisions that are then confirmed as appropriate by the spirit is hardly a "rubber stamp." I've gone through the process many times (both on my own or with my counselors). I have to assume you've had similar experiences. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by Buckeye

[Buckeye]

I always figured they did what every other church leader does: get a list of candidates, make a choice, and take it to the Lord in prayer for confirmation.

 

Yes, and while I don't have time to get a source, leading up to this conference I recall several articles in church publications discussing the selection process. Quite frequently it was mentioned that the Prophet asked for recommendations from his counselors and the 12. That's precisely what I would expect. And is contrary to Scott's conclusion that the Lord specifically instructed President Monson regarding whom to call.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Buckeye

[BlueDreams]

To be fair, they do have this woman on the board (as well as a man):

 

A little off topic....but I wonder if part of their placement on the board is due to the fact that KK and OW had an embarrassing moment on FB when they forgot to note when the first black woman gave a prayer in GC ever. They got grilled by a number of black LDS activists for it, pointing to this being one of the reasons they weren't willing to jump on board with them. After that, it seemed there was a bit of a response to try and start addressing minority issues and cover their blindspot. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Russell C McGregor]

A little off topic....but I wonder if part of their placement on the board is due to the fact that KK and OW had an embarrassing moment on FB when they forgot to note when the first black woman gave a prayer in GC ever. They got grilled by a number of black LDS activists for it, point to this being one of the reasons they weren't willing to jump on board with them. After that, it seemed there was a bit of a response to try and start address minority issues and cover their blindspot. 

 

That's interesting. Who was she? As in, was she a member of one of the general leadership boards on which women serve?

[Calm]

That's interesting. Who was she? As in, was she a member of one of the general leadership boards on which women serve?

https://www.lds.org/church/news/biographies-of-new-young-women-board-members?lang=eng

 

Dorah Mkhabela

 

The prayer starts at about 6:30 minutes into the meeting:

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/watch/2014/10?lang=eng&vid=3810237340001

Edited October 6, 2015 by Calm