Who Really Chose The New Apostles?

[Kenngo1969]

Believe it or not, I agree with you here. Diversity of background can indeed be a positive influence in a society or an organization, but too often such diversity is based on artificial distinctions, such as skin color, and even then, diversity of opinion seems not to be highly valued. Real diversity means inviting people to the table who might make us a little uncomfortable. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969].

Angling for a dinner invitation, John?  

 

(Sorry;  Couldn't resist! )

[Scott Lloyd]

I am the niece of Dale Renlund, and I just published an article about Dale's background on Mormon Observer. I'd be interested to hear what you all think.

 

http://www.mormonobserver.com/2015/10/05/want-a-new-apostle-with-a-diverse-background-hes-already-there/

Thank you for bringing a measure of sanity and perspective to the discussion.

 

Incidentally, I too served my mission in Sweden during the mid-'70s. For a while, knowing Elder Renlund and I are about the same age (he is a bit older) I was afraid he and I were in the mission at the same time and that I should remember him ( I don't). Then, I looked up his bio and found he served from 1972 to 1974. I was just after that, from 1974 to 1976. We may have overlapped a little bit, but I doubt it. I didn't arrive in the country until October.

 

It's clear we had the same mission president, though. On Sunday night, his wife, Sister Folkersen, called and left me a voicemail, saying she had been thinking about her missionaries, including Elder Renlund.

 

P.S. I will be interviewing Elder and Sister Renlund today for a Church News article.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I want those whom God chooses to be called, without political or tactical considerations

King David's ordination certainly had some tactical benefits.

 

Are we to limit the prophets and God to consider criteria we find appropriate?

That said, much of the revelatory process involves a comingling of personal thoughts and feelings with inspiration. I think seeking a representation of the worldwide church is a reasonable idea. Surely there are worthy men who aren't white who can accomplish God's work as an apostle.

 

At some point apologists will claim God wanted to call apostles of different ethnicities but "the members weren't ready for it."

[jkwilliams]

Angling for a dinner invitation, John?  

 

(Sorry;  Couldn't resist! )

If you're ever in the DC area, you have a standing invitation to dinner.

[Gray]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ekaterinawalter/2014/01/14/reaping-the-benefits-of-diversity-for-modern-business-innovation/

 

 

• Forbes study has identified workforce diversity and inclusion as a key driver of internal innovation and business growth.
• Lu Hong and Scott Page showed that groups of diverse problem solvers can outperform groups of high-ability problem solvers.
• According to McKinsey, companies with diverse executive boards enjoy significantly higher earnings and returns on equity.
• According to Harvard Business School, multicultural networks promote creativity.

[iWriteStuff]

I watched the press conference after they called the three new apostles and was must struck by Elder Renlund's statement regarding his call:

 

 

Even though I implicitly trusted President Monson, we recognized that we had both the right and an obligation to personally know down to our very bones that this call was of God. Over the ensuing hours, as we have prayed, we have come to receive that assurance by revelation that this call has come from God by prophecy. That assurance helps.

I don’t feel qualified, with the exception that I do know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I can witness of his living reality. That he is my Savior, and your Savior, I know that that’s true. And I trust completely in President Monson’s statement that who he calls, he qualifies

 

 

 

I've pondered that, prayed about it, and have received a testimony that all three are truly called of God. Could others have been called who were spiritually qualified? Absolutely. But Christ chose these three.

 

[Duncan]

I too have heard incidents such as you describe above, frequently enough for me to conclude that it is not always a matter of the Lord in effect saying to the prophet or priesthood leader, "Oh well, you put some thought into it, and whatever you decide will be fine with Me."

 

Not long before graduating from BYU, I filled an internship with University Relations writing for the alumni magazine. On one occasion, we (the editor and I) interviewed Elder Neal A. Maxwell for a profile we were writing on BYU President Dallin H. Oaks. (As I recall, he was slated to be released at the end of that academic year.)

 

Elder Maxwell described the process by which Brother Oaks was selected as university president. Elder Maxwell said that the Board of Trustees was mostly (perhaps wholly, I don't recall) unacquainted with Dallin Oaks, but on separate occasions unassociated with one another, individual members of the board had had occasion to meet Brother Oaks and take their measure of him. Later, his name surfaced in the minds of the board collectively to the point they were able to recommend him to be called to the position of university president.

 

Accounts like this tell me that very often, if not in every single case, God engineers events so that the one whom He wants called to a position is placed within the awareness of the authority making the call. The Spirit then works on the mind and heart of that leader until his own will in the matter is aligned with the will of God.

 

 

in his book "Spiritual Revival" pg 180-182, Elder Glenn L. Pace, emeritus 70 now but he relates how he was called as a 2nd counselour to then Bishop Hales. He didn't even know Bishop Hales so he was confused as to why he was called. Bishop Hales said that he didn't know him but the Lord did. Granted Elder Pace had just come back from that trip to Ethiopia with Elder Ballard of the Pres. of the 70 but I wonder if Elder Ballard was in a position to recommend names for new presiding Bishop counselours....I have no idea but the Lord knew Elder Pace

[Duncan]

I am the niece of Dale Renlund, and I just published an article about Dale's background on Mormon Observer. I'd be interested to hear what you all think.

 

http://www.mormonobserver.com/2015/10/05/want-a-new-apostle-with-a-diverse-background-hes-already-there/

 

that is excellent thank you! Something I have long wondered about but have never been in a position to ask but I would love to know if any of the Apostles had any impressions or promptings or promises in their Patriarchal Blessing or something that would suggest being called to be an Apostle, a simple yes or now would suffice, I don't need to know the details of those personal moments 

[iWriteStuff]

Groupthink is the ideal, so long as God is part of that group.

 

Or how about when it regards the Plan of Salvation? Would you rather be in the 2/3 that accepted (group) or the 1/3 that rejected? Which side was Christ on? I think that was the deciding factor for some (at least I hope so).

[Damien the Leper]

This.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints made safe, solid and comfortable decisions that fit the template for choosing modern apostles in the church, said Patrick Mason, associate professor of religion at Claremont Graduate University in California and Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies."

[Scott Lloyd]

This.

 

Just curious if you saw my parody in the opening post of the AP story containing this quote. In all occurrences, I replaced the term "Mormon church" and its equivalent with "Jesus Christ" to illustrate the absurdity of second-guessing Christ in the selection of His anointed. That's what brought up the whole clash about whether Jesus Christ or Thomas Monson made the selections.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rpn]

I guess if the Lord wanted to weed out the sheeps from the goats among His people, all He would have to do is call a 29  year old white guy from Northern Idaho who had never left the family farm except to attend college at the Washington State at Pullman and his two year mission to Wyoming, as an apostle.   That would be diversity, just not in the way others are suggesting He must do if His church is to survive.   

[Russell C McGregor]

I guess if the Lord wanted to weed out the sheeps from the goats among His people, all He would have to do is call a 29  year old white guy from Northern Idaho who had never left the family farm except to attend college at the Washington State at Pullman and his two year mission to Wyoming, as an apostle.   That would be diversity, just not in the way others are suggesting He must do if His church is to survive.

Oddly, there seem to be those who argue that the Church should go the way of the CofC if it wants to survive.

Because, as we all know, the CofC is doing so well...

[Stone holm]

Just curious if you saw my parody in the opening post of the AP story containing this quote. In all occurrences, I replaced the term "Mormon church" and its equivalent with "Jesus Christ" to illustrate the absurdity of second-guessing Christ in the selection of His anointed. That's what brought up the whole clash about whether Jesus Christ or Thomas Monson made the selections.

 

Except Christ chose Apostles who made the established Jewish community at the time uncomfortable, and after He left they filled at least one vacancy by lot.  So exactly how does that work?

[jwhitlock]

If you're ever in the DC area, you have a standing invitation to dinner.

 

You're down in the DC area? When did that happen?

[Damien the Leper]

Just curious if you saw my parody in the opening post of the AP story containing this quote. In all occurrences, I replaced the term "Mormon church" and its equivalent with "Jesus Christ" to illustrate the absurdity of second-guessing Christ in the selection of His anointed. That's what brought up the whole clash about whether Jesus Christ or Thomas Monson made the selections.

I missed it. Apologies. But I do get what you're saying, Scott.

[Damien the Leper]

Oddly, there seem to be those who argue that the Church should go the way of the CofC if it wants to survive.Because, as we all know, the CofC is doing so well...

Russell, membership numbers and a sum of money is not the barometer by which success is measured. Those who left the RLDS church in 1984 were not responsive to God's call and the mission Community of Christ now serves.

[Scott Lloyd]

I just concluded my one-hour (minus the time it took for the photo session) one-on-two interview with Elder and Sister Renlund.

 

The subject of ethnicity in the quorum never came up in our conversation.

 

But I did take a point of personal privilege and ask Elder Renlund what words of advice he might have for my missionary son who, in three weeks, will depart the MTC for the Sweden Stockholm Mission (where Elder Renlund and I both served in the 1970s).

 

I'll paraphrase here, but he replied that our son needs to know he has both the right and obligation to know by personal revelation that his call is from God. Then, with no prompting from me, Elder Renlund applied that to himself, saying that he and Sister Renlund had both sought and received that confirming witness as pertaining to his recent call to the apostleship.

 

So, I will reiterate here with certainty the point I began this thread with: It was Jesus Christ Himself Who made the selection this past weekend of Elders Rasband, Stevenson and Renlund to fill the vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Russell C McGregor]

Russell, membership numbers and a sum of money is not the barometer by which success is measured. Those who left the RLDS church in 1984 were not responsive to God's call and the mission Community of Christ now serves.

Well there you are. I think those who later formed the Reorganized Church failed to respond to God's call back in its formative years, when they should have been gathering with the Saints, but let pride get in the way.

[Kenngo1969]

If you're ever in the DC area, you have a standing invitation to dinner.

Sweet!!!  All of my three visits to D.C. have been memorable.  Any partisan wrangling and cynicism about the country's seemingly frequent, regular failures to live up to its founding ideals aside, there is (if anyone who isn't particularly religiously inclined will forgive me for saying it this way) a certain spirit and electricity about the place that I find fascinating, and by which I am inspired.

 

I don't know what might occasion my next visit there, or when, but knowing someone there (at least as a Cyber-acquaintance, though I would welcome the opportunity to "upgrade" that acquaintance to an IRL one ) will give me an even better reason to visit the area.  Thanks for the invite.  Remember that particular contribution to this thread, and don't be shocked if-and-when I take you up on it!

[Damien the Leper]

Well there you are. I think those who later formed the Reorganized Church failed to respond to God's call back in its formative years, when they should have been gathering with the Saints, but let pride get in the way.

Wonderful revisionist rot. Roger Launius, an authority on RLDS history, would highly disagree and adequately refute such juvenile nonsense.

[Russell C McGregor]

Wonderful revisionist rot. Roger Launius, an authority on RLDS history, would highly disagree and adequately refute such juvenile nonsense.

"Revisionist?"

I suppose you'll tell me that the claim that the "Reorganization" was the "successor" to a church that needed no successors isn't revisionist at all, right?

[rewcox]

Elder Rasband was expected by many. I'm looking forward to hearing their talks in April.

[iWriteStuff]

Elder Rasband was expected by many. I'm looking forward to hearing their talks in April.

Am I the only guy never to have heard of him prior to the call? Dang, I feel so out of touch.

[maxrep12]

The calling of Apostle is not one that happens out of the blue.  Many are called from the foundations of the earth.  Those who listen to the still small voice their entire lives, stay worthy of their office through obedience and repentance, magnify callings, make themselves available and useful in the small anonymous callings...  They grow in experience and stature, they grow in trust and trustworthiness.  They become ready and available for the time when they are needed to fill the seat in the quorum that someone else has vacated.

 

Their work ethic, history, faith, and faithfulness are not unknown to those around them.  But they didn't just appear on the scene overnight.  

 

As the church gains a longer history with leaders from around the world it will appear more diverse in its leadership.  But that is a function over time, and the Apostleship will reflect those who were Deacons 60-70 years ago, not the current demographic make up of the church today. 

Calling a minority general authority is a simple matter. An apostle of color, however, is an entirely separate issue, as they are immediately and irrevocably cast into the prophet lottery. And lets just forgo the line, soon to form, about how so totally ok we would all be with an african or mexican prophet, as long as the spirit confirmed he was called of God....

 

A black prophet just reminds the members of the priesthood ban, and we're trying to forget that.

 

A Lamanite prophet, and then we're thinking of his DNA, or looking at his childhood photos to see how many shades lighter his skin has become since his call to the quorum of the twelve.

 

Then when we see this prophet of color, like a nervous tick, the White and Delightsome phrase keeps popping up in our head like a non verbal form of turrets.

 

The more I think about it, we'll all be more comfortable keeping the ship on the same course as it's always been.

Edited October 7, 2015 by maxrep12