World Population, Extreme Poverty, And Resources

[Calm]

I would assume it has to do with finding some forms of meat protein easier to digest than plant protein; the amino acids may be the same, but what carries them is not.

But as you say we as a society can do just fine on much less animal protein than we use. Meat should be used more as a condiment or garnish than the majority of the meal (minus all the bread and potatoes).

[Stargazer]

Okay, I'll take that into consideration, but without broader evidence and specific reasoning I am admittedly skeptical.

Logically, if the 12 amino acids can be obtained in abundance in whole plant foods, it seems hard to understand the necessity of meat as a supplement to them, as long as you're getting enough calories. Anyways, that point of mine is really about less meat, not necessarily no meat. Caetainly, we in the West live with a great deal of excess.

My dad tried to live on nuts and berries as a teen on a health kick. He was not doing it right.

I've gotten quite scared about vegetarianism and especially veganism. When I read BlueDreams saying she was a vegetarian some months back, I wanted so badly to PM her and tell her the dangers she was subjecting herself to. She seems like such a special kid (says the grandpa-type guy), and I feel protective, sorry about that. But I didn't. So now I repenting.

I don't know quite where to start. So, let's try this one:

the best anti-veganism argument I've ever read

In which it is written:

 

The changes that I experienced were manifold and occurred so quickly and decisively I almost couldn’t believe it. Within one week I was able to stand up without seeing black spots in my eyes, and I was sleeping peacefully through the night. To my relief, my constant stomach pains and bloating completely vanished. Within 2 weeks I noticed my allergies were diminishing, even at a time when all the trees and flowers in our community were beginning to bloom. Also at 2 weeks I no longer needed a sweater just to sit on the couch, my toes and fingers had stopped feeling like perpetual icicles. At 3 weeks I could complete a light 20 minute cardio workout without feeling dizzy or nauseous, something I had been unable to accomplish for months. At 3 weeks I also noticed the most amazing change of all: my depression was diminishing. Days would go by when I wouldn’t succumb to hours of sobbing or listlessness. At 4 weeks I noticed three very strange things: my mysterious lower back pain that had been bothering me for nearly a year had vanished, even though I hadn’t changed my shoes or done any physical therapy; the skin on my face was plump and full and the fine lines that I had figured were just a sign of being nearly 30 had faded so much they were barely discernible, even though I had not changed anything about my skin care routine; and finally, I noticed my hair was thicker, shinier, and much fuller than it had been in years, even though I hadn’t changed anything about my hair care routine.

At 5 weeks I noticed a steady, permanent buzz of energy that carried me throughout the day. I started being able to run errands, work out, and do my writing, all in the same day without needing frequent rest stops. I kept waiting for exhaustion to sneak up on me…but it never once reared its ugly head.

And then there is Lierre Keith. She was vegan for 20 years and is no longer so. Let me reference the video below, where Steven Crowder who is totally right wing, politically, talks with Ms. Keith, who is totally left wing, politically, about her book about the myths of vegetarianism. Now, after seeing the video I went and bought her book (in Kindle format), and it is a complete eye-opener about the subject. Ms. Keith intimates in the interview that other vegans and vegetarians have uttered death threats against her for what she has said and written. It's because, and this is my own opinion, that vegetarianism and especially veganism has become a religion for many of those true believers. Hence the death threats. Well, have a view:

Lierre Keith's book is extremely interesting. Before you go whole-hog on vegetarianism or veganism (pun definitely intended), read her book. One interesting thing about the book are the reviews on Amazon. 23% of the reviews are 1 star, 52% are 5 star. With very few in-betweeners, one knows that this person has hit a nerve that probably needed to be hit. I don't know, I mean KNOW that Ms. Keith, is 100% right, but she makes some good points, I think. I'd like to see her in a civil debate with someone on the other side, when both debaters were well-prepared.

I do have to say that based on what she said in this interview, followed up by reading some other sources, I've decided to give the Paleo diet a try to see how it works.

[Meadowchik]

I wonder what kind of plant eating it was in those cases. How many calories came from white flower and sugar?

[Meadowchik]

I do appreciate the warning voices on here, guys. Thanks, GG, Calm, and Stargazer.

I'm guessing that with the moderation in eating (which for y'all includes meat but not to excess,) you also agree with a healthy moderation in terms of stuff. Agree?

I like the statements seen around media about focusing more on experiences than things.

[Tacenda]

Okay, I'll take that into consideration, but without broader evidence and specific reasoning I am admittedly skeptical.

Logically, if the 12 amino acids can be obtained in abundance in whole plant foods, it seems hard to understand the necessity of meat as a supplement to them, as long as you're getting enough calories. Anyways, that point of mine is really about less meat, not necessarily no meat. Caetainly, we in the West live with a great deal of excess.

My dad tried to live on nuts and berries as a teen on a health kick. He was not doing it right.

My daughter in law has recently turned vegetarian.  She had watched a documentary that changed her life, something about the treatment of animals.  She probably told me the name and I've forgotten, most likely because if I watch I'll probably join her.  A few weeks ago I made what I thought would be doable, a dinner with shrimp.  I thought she'd still eat stuff like that.  Nope, I was wrong, she had to pick out the shrimp.  So now when she comes for dinner I try to plan for that.  I made hamburgers one night and for her I made zucchini burgers, they weren't half bad. 

[Garden Girl]

I do appreciate the warning voices on here, guys. Thanks, GG, Calm, and Stargazer.

I'm guessing that with the moderation in eating (which for y'all includes meat but not to excess,) you also agree with a healthy moderation in terms of stuff. Agree?

I like the statements seen around media about focusing more on experiences than things.

 

What kinds of "stuff" are you referring to?  Assume you mean materialistic things... I don't think I've ever had "stuff" in excess... particularly now as I age... Simplify... Simplify.... Simplify is what the sea has to teach (Ann Morrow Lindbergh, Gift from the Sea).  GFTS is one of my favorite books... I have a feeling you'd really like it if you're not already familiar with it...

 

from the beach... GG

[The Nehor]

I just do not see how vegetarians believe that eating animals is young but eating the flesh of plants and often their unborn young is somehow right.

[rodheadlee]

Why???

I just thought you would like it, my mistake.

[Meadowchik]

I just thought you would like it, my mistake.

It seemed silly for my taste.

FTR, although my daughter favors veganism as a stance against animal cruelty, I simply favor eating less meat than what we do today. It's about inefficient resourcing, for the most part.

[Meadowchik]

I just do not see how vegetarians believe that eating animals is young but eating the flesh of plants and often their unborn young is somehow right.

Motives vary.

[BlueDreams]

I just do not see how vegetarians believe that eating animals is young but eating the flesh of plants and often their unborn young is somehow right.

Because I also don't have problems eating chicken periods....so my priorities are already a little wonky. Plus soylent is against my religious beliefs.

Edited October 1, 2015 by BlueDreams

[The Nehor]

Because I also don't have problems eating chicken periods....so my priorities are already a little wonky. Plus soylent is against my religious beliefs.

Soylent green is delicious.

[BlueDreams]

I've gotten quite scared about vegetarianism and especially veganism. When I read BlueDreams saying she was a vegetarian some months back, I wanted so badly to PM her and tell her the dangers she was subjecting herself to. She seems like such a special kid (says the grandpa-type guy), and I feel protective, sorry about that. But I didn't. So now I repenting.

I don't know quite where to start. So, let's try this one:

 

No worries, Stargazer. I've been a vegetarian for about 13.5 years with no adverse side effects to date and have no plans of going vegan ever (eggs and me, we're just too in love with each other...and organic whole milk...mmm). That said, I don't think being a vegetarian is for everyone and am a fairly pragmatic vegetarian in the sense that I don't expect anyone else to follow my lead and if it were the end of the world I would so kill a rooster (not a chicken though...not super smart, especially if it's laying eggs or there's a rooster around). For me and myself this diet works perfectly for me. 

 

I sleep through the night every night and have never had a bout of insomnia in my entire life, the only time I have black spots in front of my eyes is if I try to fast past 2-3 pm (fast metabolism), I regularly hike mountains (to note, that's a lot longer than 20 minutes), no stomach pains (minus stomach bugs...and I've had those about 5-6 times since I was 13), I'm usually fine temp wise,  I've never had clinical depression. I have lower back pain at times, but it's not at all mysterious...I have very slight lower scoliosis that runs in the family and is usually a lot worse for them. I'm 27 and look like I'm around 20-22. No fine lines anywhere. The other day someone complimented me on having the most beautiful clear skin they'd ever seen. I did have acne when I was younger, but who didn't? My hair is shiny, curly, bouncy, and full. The only time it wasn't was when I was pouring chemicals all over it. Turns out that's a bad thing. Out of my family I have the least amount of allergies (to date it's 1 thing: sunlight at high altitudes). My cousin currently went vegan not too long ago and she noted feeling less anxiety, not more, and generally healthier/more energetic. And I had more energy than the teen boy missionaries when at the MTC. In short I'm freaking healthy. I have only 2 other health related issues. 1 I won't mention here but has nothing to do with diet. The other is migraines, courtesy of my father's gene pool. But I have them only about once a month, they deal with tension, stress, and hormones and are no where near as bad as he has them and he definitely eats meat. 

 

Most vegetarians I know are pretty dang healthy. But not everybody should be a vegan (or feasibly even an ovo-lacto vegetarian). Some may need a little meat. Most don't need nearly as much as we assume or generally have. 

 

But I can understand the worry, I'm skeptical of paleo diets .  You're not the only one who worries though. My family blames every cold I have (half-jokingly) on my diet. Which is funny because they get sick far more than I do and their diet is pretty bad, even on a non-veggie standard. currently I eat really really well and a diverse amounts of foods. For example, today I had vegan whole-wheat, oatmeal, and oatbran pancakes (trying out a recipe for my cuz) covered in applesauce and 2 fried eggs served with a fruit/herb iced tea. Then I had toast with peanut butter and honey, cottage cheese, applesauce (i really like applesauce), and two croissants baked with with cinnamon and fresh peaches. it's light because dinner will be assorted roasted garden veggies (made from my garden), with spaghetti heavy in more veggies, and a homemade cherry tomato soup. And this is a less healthy day, because the spaghetti came from wild zucchini and I've been munching on a lightly salted popcorn while typing this.  

 

So don't worry too much, most people, when they get to know me, at the very least want my food.

Edited October 1, 2015 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

Soylent green is delicious.

 your tastebuds are obviously defective

 

 <--soylent is emoji vomit

[Stargazer]

My daughter in law has recently turned vegetarian.  She had watched a documentary that changed her life, something about the treatment of animals.  She probably told me the name and I've forgotten, most likely because if I watch I'll probably join her.  A few weeks ago I made what I thought would be doable, a dinner with shrimp.  I thought she'd still eat stuff like that.  Nope, I was wrong, she had to pick out the shrimp.  So now when she comes for dinner I try to plan for that.  I made hamburgers one night and for her I made zucchini burgers, they weren't half bad.

They were probably half good, too.

Lierre Keith makes the point that with factory farming, many animals die from machinery used to produce the crops, and thus even vegans effectively contribute towards animal injury and death. Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. If veganism is about cruelty to animals, and not merely a dietary choice, then the true vegan must raise his or her own food, or else rely upon those whom they trust will raise their food without cruelty. But if you dig in your earth with a shovel, then you will inevitably cut earthworms and other lifeforms in half, and you will crush others to death.

The only people on earth who can claim to be truly trying to prevent animal cruelty are the Jains. Vegans are pikers when it comes to that.

Myself, I don't like to see animals suffer, either. However, those who think they can somehow remove suffering and cruelty from this world are deluding themselves beyond all understanding. Without trying to put too fine a point on it, I recently had the privilege (and the pain) of tending my beloved wife until her last breath. The entire experience was long, it was painful, and it was terrible. In the end it was glorifying, but I hope the good Lord just drops me with a massive heart attack, I am such a wuss. But suffering and pain is entailed for all of us here on earth, and that includes cows, pigs and chickens. You cannot watch a National Geographic special about animals without seeing one animal predating on another, and who is prepared to stop that?

The real question here is, did God put us on earth to be non-offensive beings who never hurt a fly, or did he give us the dentition and the digestive systems to be OMNIvores? It appears to be the latter.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 --

 

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

 

In other words, if you are appreciative about the animals whose lives were taken for your food, it's OK with God that you eat meat

 

DC 49:18,19 --

 

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

 

In other words, the flesh of animals was ordained for the use of man.  You ungrateful vegans and vegetarians, where is your gratitude for what God has provided?

 

 

And in DC 89:12,13 --

 

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

I do believe someone is going to point out that my previous post regarding the Paleo diet kind of conflicts with this last scripture, but that's a discussion for another day.

My point in presenting these scriptures is this: From the evidence of our bodies, God appears to have made us to partake of animal flesh, and from the evidence in the scriptures, He confirms it. He even tells us that forbidding the consumption of meat is a sign of the last days, and not only that, but that it is a doctrine of the devil.

Now, you can be a vegetarian if you wish; I understand that Joseph Fielding Smith practiced vegetarianism. But apparently teaching it as a doctrine is apostate. Because God made us to be OMNIvores, as I said above.  He expects us to use what He has given to us, with thanksgiving.

 

And there exists evidence that a vegan diet can be harmful to our health, on top of it.  And this being true, since we are expected to treat the temple of our body with respect, it is clearly a violation of that physical temple to subject it to the harm of vegetarianism.  In my humble opinion.  Feel free to disagree, but I think the scriptural evidence trumps your opinion.

 

I just realized that this is the Social Hall, and perhaps my arguments would have better place General Discussions, but... 

[Stargazer]

Because I also don't have problems eating chicken periods....so my priorities are already a little wonky. Plus soylent is against my religious beliefs.

 

Oh, I don't know about the soylent.  One of the most common practices for the disposal of dead humans has always been burial.  This places the bodies of the dead right back into the food chain, or it used to be so, when bodies were not embalmed and buried not in concrete vaults but in bare dirt or wooden coffins.  For years after the Battle of Gettysburg the grass was extremely lush over the graves of the fallen.  Cattle grazed these pastures, and then were eaten by humans, or their milk was drank.  Thus there was a bit of a remove between the dead and the living (two intermediaries: the grass; and the cattle), but in effect the people who ate the cattle or drank their milk were consuming the dead of the battle.  Didn't seem to harm anything.

[Stargazer]

No worries, Stargazer. I've been a vegetarian for about 13.5 years with no adverse side effects to date and have no plans of going vegan ever (eggs and me, we're just too in love with each other...and organic whole milk...mmm). That said, I don't think being a vegetarian is for everyone and am a fairly pragmatic vegetarian in the sense that I don't expect anyone else to follow my lead and if it were the end of the world I would so kill a rooster (not a chicken though...not super smart, especially if it's laying eggs or there's a rooster around). For me and myself this diet works perfectly for me. 

 

I sleep through the night every night and have never had a bout of insomnia in my entire life, the only time I have black spots in front of my eyes is if I try to fast past 2-3 pm (fast metabolism), I regularly hike mountains (to note, that's a lot longer than 20 minutes), no stomach pains (minus stomach bugs...and I've had those about 5-6 times since I was 13), I'm usually fine temp wise,  I've never had clinical depression. I have lower back pain at times, but it's not at all mysterious...I have very slight lower scoliosis that runs in the family and is usually a lot worse for them. I'm 27 and look like I'm around 20-22. No fine lines anywhere. The other day someone complimented me on having the most beautiful clear skin they'd ever seen. I did have acne when I was younger, but who didn't? My hair is shiny, curly, bouncy, and full. The only time it wasn't was when I was pouring chemicals all over it. Turns out that's a bad thing. Out of my family I have the least amount of allergies (to date it's 1 thing: sunlight at high altitudes). My cousin currently went vegan not too long ago and she noted feeling less anxiety, not more, and generally healthier/more energetic. And I had more energy than the teen boy missionaries when at the MTC. In short I'm freaking healthy. I have only 2 other health related issues. 1 I won't mention here but has nothing to do with diet. The other is migraines, courtesy of my father's gene pool. But I have them only about once a month, they deal with tension, stress, and hormones and are no where near as bad as he has them and he definitely eats meat. 

 

Most vegetarians I know are pretty dang healthy. But not everybody should be a vegan (or feasibly even an ovo-lacto vegetarian). Some may need a little meat. Most don't need nearly as much as we assume or generally have. 

 

But I can understand the worry, I'm skeptical of paleo diets .  You're not the only one who worries though. My family blames every cold I have (half-jokingly) on my diet. Which is funny because they get sick far more than I do and their diet is pretty bad, even on a non-veggie standard. currently I eat really really well and a diverse amounts of foods. For example, today I had vegan whole-wheat, oatmeal, and oatbran pancakes (trying out a recipe for my cuz) covered in applesauce and 2 fried eggs served with a fruit/herb iced tea. Then I had toast with peanut butter and honey, cottage cheese, applesauce (i really like applesauce), and two croissants baked with with cinnamon and fresh peaches. it's light because dinner will be assorted roasted garden veggies (made from my garden), with spaghetti heavy in more veggies, and a homemade cherry tomato soup. And this is a less healthy day, because the spaghetti came from wild zucchini and I've been munching on a lightly salted popcorn while typing this.  

 

So don't worry too much, most people, when they get to know me, at the very least want my food.

 

I'm happy that it goes well for you with being a vegetarian.  I am certain that you are correct when you say that some people can't do it without negative consequences -- differences between us abound.

 

I have never been all that big of a meat eater.  I've been very moderate in my meat consumption.  This is why Paleo may be a challenge for me.  But I am looking for a way back from my current physique, which features a weight that that recently reached my peak, achieved just recently, of 321 lbs.  I don't consider this to be a positive development, but I chalk it up to the fact that I am a stress eater and I've had more stress in the past few months than the rest of my life combined.  It's possible that if I succeed in dialing it back to a more healthy weight, that I will try to keep in boundaries outside of the Paleo sphere. We'll see.  I am not a "true believer" in anything except the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

And I need to gently correct you on something.  The long-term vegans who have recanted due to serious health issues did not report the health issues that caused them to backslide at the beginning of the vegan careers, but rather at the other end.  In other words, going vegan had great initial benefits. clearly caused by removing manufactured food from their diets and replacing it with healthy whole foods, but since it also removed from them the beneficial nutrition found in animal foods (nutrition which when removed does not cause immediate effects), the lacks eventually caught up with them.

 

Your diet contains eggs and dairy, and thus much of which vegans lose out on is available in your diet.  Naturally, I would expect you to survive better on it.  My suggestion is to eat a steak at least four times a year.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Stargazer

[Tacenda]

They were probably half good, too.

Lierre Keith makes the point that with factory farming, many animals die from machinery used to produce the crops, and thus even vegans effectively contribute towards animal injury and death. Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. If veganism is about cruelty to animals, and not merely a dietary choice, then the true vegan must raise his or her own food, or else rely upon those whom they trust will raise their food without cruelty. But if you dig in your earth with a shovel, then you will inevitably cut earthworms and other lifeforms in half, and you will crush others to death.

The only people on earth who can claim to be truly trying to prevent animal cruelty are the Jains. Vegans are pikers when it comes to that.

Myself, I don't like to see animals suffer, either. However, those who think they can somehow remove suffering and cruelty from this world are deluding themselves beyond all understanding. Without trying to put too fine a point on it, I recently had the privilege (and the pain) of tending my beloved wife until her last breath. The entire experience was long, it was painful, and it was terrible. In the end it was glorifying, but I hope the good Lord just drops me with a massive heart attack, I am such a wuss. But suffering and pain is entailed for all of us here on earth, and that includes cows, pigs and chickens. You cannot watch a National Geographic special about animals without seeing one animal predating on another, and who is prepared to stop that?

The real question here is, did God put us on earth to be non-offensive beings who never hurt a fly, or did he give us the dentition and the digestive systems to be OMNIvores? It appears to be the latter.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 --

In other words, if you are appreciative about the animals whose lives were taken for your food, it's OK with God that you eat meat

DC 49:18,19 --

In other words, the flesh of animals was ordained for the use of man. You ungrateful vegans and vegetarians, where is your gratitude for what God has provided?

And in DC 89:12,13 --

I do believe someone is going to point out that my previous post regarding the Paleo diet kind of conflicts with this last scripture, but that's a discussion for another day.

My point in presenting these scriptures is this: From the evidence of our bodies, God appears to have made us to partake of animal flesh, and from the evidence in the scriptures, He confirms it. He even tells us that forbidding the consumption of meat is a sign of the last days, and not only that, but that it is a doctrine of the devil.

Now, you can be a vegetarian if you wish; I understand that Joseph Fielding Smith practiced vegetarianism. But apparently teaching it as a doctrine is apostate. Because God made us to be OMNIvores, as I said above. He expects us to use what He has given to us, with thanksgiving.

And there exists evidence that a vegan diet can be harmful to our health, on top of it. And this being true, since we are expected to treat the temple of our body with respect, it is clearly a violation of that physical temple to subject it to the harm of vegetarianism. In my humble opinion. Feel free to disagree, but I think the scriptural evidence trumps your opinion.

I just realized that this is the Social Hall, and perhaps my arguments would have better place General Discussions, but...

I keep wondering what animals like deer, cattle, chicken, fish, fowl and pigs are meant for, other than sacrificing their lives for us. Could we make them our pets? Like we do with dogs, cats, exotic birds, gold fish etc? What are their distinctions, their cuteness? Interesting since some feast on dog and horse meat, and some have pets such as pigs. Sure makes you wonder, which animals and why? Edited October 2, 2015 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

I keep wondering what animals like deer, cattle, chicken, fish, fowl and pigs are meant for, other than sacrificing their lives for us. Could we make them our pets? Like we do with dogs, cats, exotic birds, gold fish etc? What are their distinctions, their cuteness? Interesting since some feast on dog and horse meat, and some have pets such as pigs. Sure makes you wonder, which animals and why?

 

People eat an astounding array of animal foods.  Ants, caterpillars, grasshoppers, spiders, fish, squid, octopi, whales, and even such cute pets like dogs, cats, and guinea pigs have been human fodder for thousands of years.

 

And the interesting bit about this is that every single one of the items I have just mentioned have been food for many other animals besides us, and in most cases the aforementioned animals have been eating other animals for far longer than we've been eating them.  Some of those mentioned above (e.g. caterpillars and grasshoppers) are strict vegans, but the others are either carnivores of omnivores.

 

In short, in what we so colorfully dub Mother Nature, all animals and plants form a vast, interlocking and complex web of food dependency.  Before we created cows from wild ruminants, for example, they were food for tigers, wolves, pumas and lions.  Before we created dogs from wolves, they used to eat deer, bunny rabbits and other rodents (I guess they still do, unless we provide them with Puppy Chow).  Bunny rabbits, in their turn, will eat various items of vegetation, but will also eat caterpillars.  Spiders eat flying insects.  Some birds eat spiders -- e.g. hummingbirds sometimes supplement their diets by snacking on orb-weaving spiders (which present themselves very delectably in the middle of a pretty web).  Finally, animals die and fall to the earth, where vultures feast on their carrion before that is consumed by bacteria, and eaten by the maggots of flies.  Ultimately, nutrients from the dead animals are taken up by plants growing in the ground where the animals fell, and then the plants are consumed in their turn by, guess what, animals!

 

I've eaten horse, on my mission in Germany.  It was prepared as sauerbraten, and tasted great!

 

The thing is, God created the entire earth to be a self-sustaining web of life.  And every entity of life has as its chief purpose the propagation of its own species, and every entity of life becomes food for another entity, at some point.  The purpose itself is Life.  What?  You never watched The Lion King?  The Circle of Life.

[Tacenda]

People eat an astounding array of animal foods.  Ants, caterpillars, grasshoppers, spiders, fish, squid, octopi, whales, and even such cute pets like dogs, cats, and guinea pigs have been human fodder for thousands of years.

 

And the interesting bit about this is that every single one of the items I have just mentioned have been food for many other animals besides us, and in most cases the aforementioned animals have been eating other animals for far longer than we've been eating them.  Some of those mentioned above (e.g. caterpillars and grasshoppers) are strict vegans, but the others are either carnivores of omnivores.

 

In short, in what we so colorfully dub Mother Nature, all animals and plants form a vast, interlocking and complex web of food dependency.  Before we created cows from wild ruminants, for example, they were food for tigers, wolves, pumas and lions.  Before we created dogs from wolves, they used to eat deer, bunny rabbits and other rodents (I guess they still do, unless we provide them with Puppy Chow).  Bunny rabbits, in their turn, will eat various items of vegetation, but will also eat caterpillars.  Spiders eat flying insects.  Some birds eat spiders -- e.g. hummingbirds sometimes supplement their diets by snacking on orb-weaving spiders (which present themselves very delectably in the middle of a pretty web).  Finally, animals die and fall to the earth, where vultures feast on their carrion before that is consumed by bacteria, and eaten by the maggots of flies.  Ultimately, nutrients from the dead animals are taken up by plants growing in the ground where the animals fell, and then the plants are consumed in their turn by, guess what, animals!

 

I've eaten horse, on my mission in Germany.  It was prepared as sauerbraten, and tasted great!

 

The thing is, God created the entire earth to be a self-sustaining web of life.  And every entity of life has as its chief purpose the propagation of its own species, and every entity of life becomes food for another entity, at some point.  The purpose itself is Life.  What?  You never watched The Lion King?  The Circle of Life.

I don't know where I read it, but somebody wished their casket would be biodegradable and their bodies reaching the earth and also becoming the circle of life. I like that...or having my ashes added to the earth.

[Tacenda]

Stargazer, I see you've mentioned the returning to the earth idea already.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

I don't know where I read it, but somebody wished their casket would be biodegradable and their bodies reaching the earth and also becoming the circle of life. I like that...or having my ashes added to the earth.

 

There are biodegradable caskets available!

 

http://www.memorials.com/green-caskets.php

 

Burial at sea is cool for that.  I also wish that the US Park Service would let us throw the bodies of our loved ones into Kilauea crater.  Instant ashes.  No, I'm serious. 

[Stargazer]

Stargazer, I see you've mentioned the returning to the earth idea already.

 

Yes, I do try to cover all bases.  I don't always succeed. 

[BlueDreams]

 

 

I have never been all that big of a meat eater.  I've been very moderate in my meat consumption.  This is why Paleo may be a challenge for me.  But I am looking for a way back from my current physique, which features a weight that that recently reached my peak, achieved just recently, of 321 lbs.  I don't consider this to be a positive development, but I chalk it up to the fact that I am a stress eater and I've had more stress in the past few months than the rest of my life combined.  It's possible that if I succeed in dialing it back to a more healthy weight, that I will try to keep in boundaries outside of the Paleo sphere. We'll see.  I am not a "true believer" in anything except the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That stinks and I could understand wanting to try something to get back on track. May I suggest a book called Intuitive Eating? It's a good read on this issue. I would worry that you may end up accidentally yo-yoing, which can be worse on your health than the increased weight. This book helps to focus you on getting a better relationship with your body in general. 

 

My family has plenty of emotional eaters. Personally, I'm a stress non-eater. When I'm stressed my food consumption/appetite drops. 

 

And I need to gently correct you on something.  The long-term vegans who have recanted due to serious health issues did not report the health issues that caused them to backslide at the beginning of the vegan careers, but rather at the other end.  In other words, going vegan had great initial benefits. clearly caused by removing manufactured food from their diets and replacing it with healthy whole foods, but since it also removed from them the beneficial nutrition found in animal foods (nutrition which when removed does not cause immediate effects), the lacks eventually caught up with them.

 

I've heard both ways. Many experience the problems at the beginning, because they're not eating with a good balance. They usually taper out within a year or 2. Others I've heard, taper off after several years (5-10). But honestly, I know very, very few people who are actually vegan (or ever were) and most people who were vegetarian were a) not the best at it and b) didn't quit for health. But there's a reason the lifestyle is around and it's because for a lot of people it does work for them.  Plus just because there are people who quit because of health concerns does not mean the diet is inherently unhealthy....it just did not meet their personal dietary needs. 

 

Your diet contains eggs and dairy, and thus much of which vegans lose out on is available in your diet.  Naturally, I would expect you to survive better on it.  My suggestion is to eat a steak at least four times a year.

 

 

Holy hannah....I didn't eat that much steak when I wasn't vegetarian (all together I've had it once in my entire life that I can remember). I'll pass. Besides, the idea of steak makes me mildly nauseous. I have had meat a handful of times as a vegetarian and each time i've regretted it. 1. It tastes bad now...like it has this dead aftertaste 2. my body doesn't have anything that heavy ever and breaking down meat is heavy business. I usually end up feeling too full and bloated or in pain trying to digest the dang fat ball sitting in my gut. Along with being vegetarian, I have very very little anything that's processed, highly refined, or heavy in fats....let alone animal protein. So i'll pass.   

[Meadowchik]

Because I also don't have problems eating chicken periods....so my priorities are already a little wonky. Plus soylent is against my religious beliefs.

 

Me, neither. I also enjoy apple tree periods and dine on baby strawberry.