Church Now Teaching Stone In Hat Translation

[HappyJackWagon]

The church is very wise adding this to the curriculum for seminary and institute. It won't take long for people to get used to the idea of the seer stone versus the Urim and Thummim. Once that shock is gone people will be less likely to dig into the history of the seer stone which can tend to cause 2nd level problems for people. So, in short, Teaching the Head in Hat translation will effectively...

1- Innoculate people from the shock of hearing a different translation story & thus

2- Reduce the liklihood that people will search out additional information about the magic world view and treasure digging

3- Remove the criticism that the church taught an incorrect narrative

Smart move by the church. The sooner it can teach this and other troubling historical issues in weekly church services the sooner they'll be able to put it behind them.

[thesometimesaint]

What could be more magical(Supernatural) than reformed Egyptian words appearing in English on a dark brown stone while in a hat?

Edited September 14, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[HappyJackWagon]

 

What could be more magical(Supernatural) than English words appearing on a dark brown stone while in a hat?

But they don't focus on that. It's just a substitution from the U&T to the Seer stone and the translation is done by "the power of God". I doubt there would be much detail about HOW the translation actually worked because nobody knows. Lighted words appearing in the hat is speculative based on the testimony of scribes who didn't actually witness it.

[thesometimesaint]

I have no idea as to what other people focus on. However it has been posited by a witness to the Book of Mormon that the words appeared on the stone. So unless that stone was some type of super advanced alien technology. Then we are left with just the Supernatural.

 

I don't have a problem with it being a type of U&T or with God inspiring their use. I do have problems with that the words appeared on a stone idea contradicts Scripture and logic.

Edited September 14, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Tacenda]

I have no idea as to what other people focus on. However it has been posited by a witness to the Book of Mormon that the words appeared on the stone. So unless that stone was some type of super advanced alien technology. Then we are left with just the Supernatural.

 

I don't have a problem with it being a type of U&T or with God inspiring their use. I do have problems with that the words appeared on a stone idea contradicts Scripture and logic.

I see this as a problem as well, the last sentence. 

 

If this is the case then what did JS use to translate the BoA.  Did he use the seer stones?  Or did he get it through inspiration?  My questions are for the board in general. 

[thesometimesaint]

I see this as a problem as well, the last sentence. 

 

If this is the case then what did JS use to translate the BoA.  Did he use the seer stones?  Or did he get it through inspiration?  My questions are for the board in general. 

 

I tend to think of them as a type focus point. A way to concentrate on the meaning of the words and not on the words themselves. Of course I have no way of knowing exactly how they were used but that way makes sense to me.

[hope_for_things]

 

But they don't focus on that. It's just a substitution from the U&T to the Seer stone and the translation is done by "the power of God". I doubt there would be much detail about HOW the translation actually worked because nobody knows. Lighted words appearing in the hat is speculative based on the testimony of scribes who didn't actually witness it.

 

The magical world view of early Mormonism has been one of the things that caused me to lose faith in the traditional narrative.  If the discovery of the seer stone story is explored further, then a person learns about divining rods, treasure guardians, talismans, autumnal equinoxes, curses, magical parchments, astrology, etc.  It’s not just a stone in a hat, it’s an entirely different world view where superstition and religion are mixed together. 

 

That’s where this all breaks down for me personally.  I haven’t been able to make the leap back into believing in angels and the metaphysics of religion, because I’ve never believed the same way that these early 19^th century saints believed.  This is the slippery slope of the seer stone story, and likely why the church has been so slow to adopt it.  I’m glad they are telling a more truthful account now, but I think only time will tell what kind of an effect this has.  

[Bernard Gui]

There may be sound pedagogy here, beginning with the visible presence and use of the plates and interpreters (spectacles), which Joseph uses as he copies and translates lines of text -- which Martin Harris takes to some scholars -- then moving to a major phase in which the plates are wrapped in cheesecloth and kept on the table nearby while Joseph translates using his seerstone in his hat method, then to a final phase in which there are no plates and no interpreters available.

 

The "training wheels" have been removed as the young'un got more confidence and capacity.  We do this in so many areas of learning and training, that I am astonished that anyone would see it as mysterious.

Interesting perspective,

I am looking at this from the proselytizing point of view. The book is our most important tool as we spread the message of the Restoration, and once converted, the key to spiritual growth for individual members.

From mormon.org: "The significance of the Book of Mormon in the world could be measured in the quantity of copies distributed or the increasing number of people who choose to follow Jesus Christ after reading the book. The important impact, however, is distinctly personal. The Book of Mormon is answering questions, providing hope, and solidifying spiritual strength in people, one by one."

I don't believe anything in the Restoration came about by chance, so I wonder why God chose this particular method to prepare the book for dissemination. Whether it be by stones in a bow, stones in a hat, or no physical apparatus, the translation process could be a stumbling block for many who are exposed to the message before they even get to Moroni 10.

No doubt it filters out potential readers....I wonder why.

[thesometimesaint]

The whole of Christianity is based on God, and his revelations to mankind through his prophets.

[Bernard Gui]

The church is very wise adding this to the curriculum for seminary and institute. It won't take long for people to get used to the idea of the seer stone versus the Urim and Thummim. Once that shock is gone people will be less likely to dig into the history of the seer stone which can tend to cause 2nd level problems for people. So, in short, Teaching the Head in Hat translation will effectively...1- Innoculate people from the shock of hearing a different translation story & thus2- Reduce the liklihood that people will search out additional information about the magic world view and treasure digging3- Remove the criticism that the church taught an incorrect narrativeSmart move by the church. The sooner it can teach this and other troubling historical issues in weekly church services the sooner they'll be able to put it behind them.

Which ignores the crucial issue that the book was translated....that's the bottom line.

[JAHS]

Well with two stones and a bow,  was Joseph at least looking at the gold plates?  With the head in the hat, the plates become irrelevant and explaining why they were even there is a bit of a mystery.

 

They were mostly there as a proof of their existance to Joseph Smith. Prophets in the past have been given physical objects to help them believe and use their faith to access the powers of God; like the staff of Moses; the ark of the covenant; a brass serpent on a pole.

Those things of themselves had no supernatural powers.

Joseph's possession of the plates and interpreters inspired him to call on prophetic powers to effect translation.

 

The plates were also there so witnesses could testify to the world they were real. 

[HappyJackWagon]

 

They were mostly there as a proof of their existance to Joseph Smith. Prophets in the past have been given physical objects to help them believe and use their faith to access the powers of God; like the staff of Moses; the ark of the covenant; a brass serpent on a pole.

Those things of themselves had no supernatural powers.

Joseph's possession of the plates and interpreters inspired him to call on prophetic powers to effect translation.

 

The plates were also there so witnesses could testify to the world they were real.

 

IMO the witnesses testimony is sketchy.

I find the reduction of the golden plates to the equivalent of Dumbo's feather to be interesting. The plates were not necessary for "translating" the plates. What's the next truth claim that will be reduced to complete irrelevenece?

[JAHS]

 

 

IMO the witnesses testimony is sketchy.

I find the reduction of the golden plates to the equivalent of Dumbo's feather to be interesting. The plates were not necessary for "translating" the plates. What's the next truth claim that will be reduced to complete irrelevenece?

I didn't say they were not necessary; they were necessary in a way we don't understand since Joseph himself did not describe the exact process of translation. I merely provided additional reasons for their existance. 

[phaedrus ut]

There is still a good amount of misinformation about the translation process.  In yesterdays LDS Church news there was an article about the recent rededication of the Mexico City Temple. They held a cultural program held during the September 12th rededication program included this image.

 

"A scene in cultural program prior to rededication of the Mexico City Mexico Temple depicts Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon."

 

This image was not only part of the pagent but also published in this weekend's LDS church news.

 

 

Phaedrus

[Bernard Gui]

I have tried repeatedly (with not much success) to start a discussion comparing the process of translating the BoM (Nephite interpreters, the seer stone in the hat, and the liahona) with the description of how the ancient Israelite High Priests recieved revelation through the Urim and Thummim. The similarities are astounding. Both describe the appearance of revealed words appearing or shining in stones. I'm puzzled why this gets no traction, but it resonates with me. If we are guilty of associating with mysticism and magick, at least we appear to be in good historical company. From the Temple Institute of Jerusalem (non-LDS):

"And you shall set it with four rows of mounted stones; the first row: a ruby, an emerald, and a topaz. The second row: a carbuncle, a sapphire, and a quartz crystal. The third row: a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst. The fourth row: a chrysolite, an onyx, and an opal. These stones shall be placed in gold settings. The stones shall contain the names of the twelve children of Israel, one for each of the twelve stones; each one's name shall be engraved as on a signet ring, to represent the twelve tribes." (Ex. 28: 17-21) "And you shall place the Urim V'tummim in the breastplate of judgment, and they shall be over Aaron's heart when he comes before G-d." (ibid. v. 30)

The Urim V'Tummim was the famed, oracle-like aspect of the breastplate by which a Heavenly answer was received for important questions. According to most authoritative opinions, the expression urim v'tummim actually refers not to the breastplate itself, but to the mystical Divine name of G-d which was written on a piece of parchment and inserted into a flap of the garment. The presence of the name facilitated the reception of Divine guidance through the shining of specific letters on the stones.

The urim v'tummim is unlike any other aspect of the priestly garments, for it was not created by those skilled artisans who fashioned the other items, aided by their understanding and inspiration; and it was not created from the donations or contributions of Israel, as were all the other appointments of the Temple. The entire matter is one of those mysteries which was handed down to Moses at Mount Sinai by G-d Himself, and its secret was transmitted orally down through the generations.

At the time of the original Tabernacle erected in the desert, Moses took the original urim v'tummim, written in sublime holiness, and placed it inside the breastplate of judgment, after Aaron donned the ephod. This is reflected by the verse (Lev. 8:7), "... and he put the ephod upon him, and he fastened him with the belt of the ephod... and he put the breastplate upon him, and into the breastplate he put the urim v'tummim."

The process of questioning for Divine aid with the 'Urim V'Tummim' was done in the following manner: When a question arose whose implications were so consequential that the entire congregation of Israel would be effected-such as, for example, the question of whether or not to go out to war - then, the King of Israel (or the commanding officer of the army) would ask his question before the High Priest. An ordinary person, or someone not representing the entire community would not ask of the urim v'tummim.

The High Priest stands facing the Ark of the Testimony, and the questioner stands behind him, facing the priest's back. The questioner does not speak out loud, neither does he merely think the question in his heart; he poses his query quietly, to himself - like someone who prayers quietly before his Creator. For example, he will ask "Shall I go out to battle, or shall I not go out?"

The High Priest is immediately enveloped by the spirit of Divine inspiration. He gazes at the breastplate, and by meditating upon the holy names of G-d, the priest was able to receive the answer through a prophetic vision-the letters on the stones of the breastplate, which would shine forth in his eyes in a special manner, spelling out the answer to the question. The priest then informs the questioner of the answer.

Flavius Josephus writes (Antiquities 3:8:9) that the stones also shone brilliantly when Israel went forth into battle. This was considered as an auspicious sign for their victory.

Another midrashic passage indicates that when the tribes of Israel found favor in G-d's eyes, each respective stone shone brilliantly. But when particular members of any one tribe were involved in a transgression, that tribe's stone would appear tarnished and dimmed. The High Priest would see this phenomena and understand its cause. He would then cast lots within the rank of this tribe, until the guilty person was revealed and judged (Midrash HaGadol).

Am I the only one impressed by this? Your comments would be appreciated.

[mapman]

There is still a good amount of misinformation about the translation process.  In yesterdays LDS Church news there was an article about the recent rededication of the Mexico City Temple. They held a cultural program held during the September 12th rededication program included this image.

 

"A scene in cultural program prior to rededication of the Mexico City Mexico Temple depicts Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon."

 

This image was not only part of the pagent but also published in this weekend's LDS church news.

 

 

Phaedrus

I would think that now that the new narrative of how the translation occurred is in the curriculum and the Liahona depictions like this will fade away within a few years.

[mapman]

Here are some thoughts I've had about the significance the seer stone will have on our understanding of our history. The seer stone I think raises at least two important issues: The relationship of the seer stone with esoteric folk practices and the relationship of the seer stone with the golden plates.

 

I think the most productive way that the church can address the issue of "folk magic" is fairly obvious. The seer stone wasn't any different from other seer stones of the time, but they only worked when the seer was trying to help bring forth the kingdom of God, and in the end the seer stones weren't really necessary. The only time that Joseph Smith ever retrieved anything from the ground was when he had overcome desires to seek out worldly treasures. The only treasure that he found through the seer stone was an amazing scriptural text. The historical record indicates that Joseph Smith pretty strongly rejected the treasure seeking culture because God told him to. This teaching by Jesus pretty much sums it up: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matthew 6:19-21)

 

The question of what the role of the golden plates was in the translation process is more tricky for me. I think those that have said that it provides a sense of physicality and reality to the ancient existence of the record have a very good point. I also think that it did in some way have a connection to the translation. In the new book From Darkness unto Light the authors argue that when Joseph first got the plates he had expected some scholar would translate the record. He thus copied characters from the plates and Martin Harris went to several scholars to see if they could get them translated. When they were unable or unwilling to translate the characters they came to realize that someone unlearned needed to translate the record (which they saw as a fulfillment of a prophecy in Isaiah). The time during which they studied the characters on the plates may be what was referred to when DC 9:8 says: "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." If that is a correct interpretation, it raises lots of more questions, though.

Edited September 14, 2015 by mapman

[theplains]

Whether the plates were translated with a seer stone in a hat or not really does not matter to me.  I worry more about the end product being the Book of Mormon text than the exact methodology of how we got it.  If one has a testimony of the text itself than I don't see anyone having a big issue with it.

 

I wonder why they didn't release a picture of the supposed spectacles (the two seer stones in

a holding rim). Source Fairmormon.

 

Regards,

Jim

[california boy]

Interesting perspective,

I am looking at this from the proselytizing point of view. The book is our most important tool as we spread the message of the Restoration, and once converted, the key to spiritual growth for individual members.

From mormon.org: "The significance of the Book of Mormon in the world could be measured in the quantity of copies distributed or the increasing number of people who choose to follow Jesus Christ after reading the book. The important impact, however, is distinctly personal. The Book of Mormon is answering questions, providing hope, and solidifying spiritual strength in people, one by one."

I don't believe anything in the Restoration came about by chance, so I wonder why God chose this particular method to prepare the book for dissemination. Whether it be by stones in a bow, stones in a hat, or no physical apparatus, the translation process could be a stumbling block for many who are exposed to the message before they even get to Moroni 10.

No doubt it filters out potential readers....I wonder why.

 

From a proselytizing point of view, do you think missionaries will start telling their investigators that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by sticking his head in a hat and looking at a seer stone.  Or will the process not be talked about until after the person joins the church?  And what effect do you think this will have on investigators if any?

 

Mostly I am curious just how open and truthful the church will be about this subject.  Will it become a commonly taught subject, or still somewhat hidden especially from people investigating the church?

 

As a side note, I read the other day in a national newspaper an article about the church "admitting" Joseph Smith married a teenager.  There will probably be some national attention to this subject as well.

[Robert F. Smith]

What could be more magical(Supernatural) than reformed Egyptian words appearing in English on a dark brown stone while in a hat?

No more magical than the translation app on your smart phone.

 

Bear in mind Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law:  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

Several witnesses provided their version of what took place with the seerstone in the hat.  For example, Emma’s brother-in-law, Michael Morse (never a Mormon), knew Joseph in Harmony, Pennsylvania, and saw him translating on several occasions.  He later recalled that Joseph would place

 

the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating, word after word, while the scribes – Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other, wrote it down.  W. W. Blair letter, May 22, 1879, Sandwich, Illinois, to Saints’ Herald, 26 (June 15, 1879):190-191.

 

Joseph Knight, Sr., described in his diary the translation equipment and process.  Note his personal recollection of Joseph on the morning of September 22, 1827:

 

. . . he seamed to think more of the glasses or the urim and thummem then [than] he Did of the Plates, for, says he, “I can see any thing; they are Marvelus.  Now they are writen in Caracters and I want them translated.”

* * * *

Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkened his Eyes then he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters.  Then he would tell the writer and he would write it.  Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on.  But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous.  Thus was the hol translated.  BYU Studies, 17:33,35.

 

David Whitmer's version of this was told to J. L. Traughber, Jr., October 13, 1879:

 

With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state that he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim; but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone, called a “Seer Stone,” which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light.  Then, a spiritual light would shine forth, and parchment would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said.  Saints’ Herald, 26 (Nov 15, 1879):341; 109 (Nov 15, 1962):800.

 

This is a mere selection.  There are many more versions of this, none of which need have been in any way supernatural.

[carbon dioxide]

From a proselytizing point of view, do you think missionaries will start telling their investigators that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by sticking his head in a hat and looking at a seer stone.  Or will the process not be talked about until after the person joins the church?  And what effect do you think this will have on investigators if any?

 

Mostly I am curious just how open and truthful the church will be about this subject.  Will it become a commonly taught subject, or still somewhat hidden especially from people investigating the church?

 

As a side note, I read the other day in a national newspaper an article about the church "admitting" Joseph Smith married a teenager.  There will probably be some national attention to this subject as well.

I would just say Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.  The exact methodology does not matter.  Whether it was with is face in a hat with a seer stone or looking at the plates through the Nephite interpreters really is not important.  If the Book of Mormon is true, it is true because it is what it claims to be.  The exact mechanism of how it was translated does not make or break it.

[carbon dioxide]

I would think that now that the new narrative of how the translation occurred is in the curriculum and the Liahona depictions like this will fade away within a few years.

I don't think so because I don't think most members really care about if a picture is 100% accurate.  There is that famous picture of Jesus appearing to the Nephites with those pyramid buildings in the background.  There is no reason to believe those were there when Jesus appeared and I don't think members really care about such exact details in painting and pictures.  I have known about the hat and seer stone for years but that knowledge never bothered me about seeing these paintings of Joseph Smith translating. 

[why me]

From a proselytizing point of view, do you think missionaries will start telling their investigators that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by sticking his head in a hat and looking at a seer stone.  Or will the process not be talked about until after the person joins the church?  And what effect do you think this will have on investigators if any?

 

Mostly I am curious just how open and truthful the church will be about this subject.  Will it become a commonly taught subject, or still somewhat hidden especially from people investigating the church?

 

As a side note, I read the other day in a national newspaper an article about the church "admitting" Joseph Smith married a teenager.  There will probably be some national attention to this subject as well.

The mormon experience, as I experienced it when I was much younger, depended on a spiritual experience by reading the book of mormon. People were not baptized until they believed that the church was true. I would think that the misionaries will concentrate on the reading the book of mormon, receiving the testimony, and telling some of the details of the translation process. Lets put it this way: how many people can write a book like the book of mormon by sticking their head in a hat? Try it. This is much more believable than the old way of expkaining it. But then, people need to use their imagination to understand the implications. Not to mention the testimony of the witnesses.

 

I don't think the head in the hat story was all that sensational in the 1820s. Emma believed it. David believed it. And Oliver believed it. Why? Because works in mysterious ways. These days, with the rise of secularism an rational thinking, it is a hard sell but it can be quite believeable. I would have an investigator stick his head in a hat and write a book. As he or she discovers it to be difficult, I woud then explain the translation process. 

 

The next time you are at a fair conference, demonstrate your skills by sticking your head in a hat and write a book with a scribe present. It should be very entertaining.

Edited September 15, 2015 by why me

[Bernard Gui]

From a proselytizing point of view, do you think missionaries will start telling their investigators that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by sticking his head in a hat and looking at a seer stone. Or will the process not be talked about until after the person joins the church? And what effect do you think this will have on investigators if any?

Mostly I am curious just how open and truthful the church will be about this subject. Will it become a commonly taught subject, or still somewhat hidden especially from people investigating the church?

As a side note, I read the other day in a national newspaper an article about the church "admitting" Joseph Smith married a teenager. There will probably be some national attention to this subject as well.

The Church is being truthful. I have no idea how this will be taught by the missionaries, but honesty is usually the best policy. Testimony comes by the Spirit, so we shall see. Reading shining words in a stone is no more troublesome for me than a dead man coming to life. No comments about the Temple Institute article on the urim and thummim? Edited September 16, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

I would just say Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.  The exact methodology does not matter.  Whether it was with is face in a hat with a seer stone or looking at the plates through the Nephite interpreters really is not important.  If the Book of Mormon is true, it is true because it is what it claims to be.  The exact mechanism of how it was translated does not make or break it.

 

I don't think that most people believe an artist representing something that happened that far back is painting an accurate picture.  There are no narrative on the actual architecture of that time.  If there was, then if the artist is trying to accurately recreate an event, they should rely on what was recorded about that event.  

 

But there is a known narrative on how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.  Two completely different issues.  One is not known, the other is known.  I don't think that most people believe an artist representing something that happened that far back is painting an accurate picture.  There are no narative on the actual architecture of that time.  But there is a known narative on how Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.  Two completely different issues.  One is not known, the other is known.  I would expect a painter to paint the translation process as it is recorded in history.  Detains like the color of the hat or how big it was would of course be open to inturpetation just like the architecture in the paintings you referred to.