Church Now Teaching Stone In Hat Translation

[california boy]

The mormon experience, as I experienced it when I was much younger, depended on a spiritual experience by reading the book of mormon. People were not baptized until they believed that the church was true. I would think that the misionaries will concentrate on the reading the book of mormon, receiving the testimony, and telling some of the details of the translation process. Lets put it this way: how many people can write a book like the book of mormon by sticking their head in a hat? Try it. This is much more believable than the old way of expkaining it. But then, people need to use their imagination to understand the implications. Not to mention the testimony of the witnesses.

 

I don't think the head in the hat story was all that sensational in the 1820s. Emma believed it. David believed it. And Oliver believed it. Why? Because works in mysterious ways. These days, with the rise of secularism an rational thinking, it is a hard sell but it can be quite believeable. I would have an investigator stick his head in a hat and write a book. As he or she discovers it to be difficult, I woud then explain the translation process. 

 

The next time you are at a fair conference, demonstrate your skills by sticking your head in a hat and write a book with a scribe present. It should be very entertaining.

 

 

In principle, I agree with you.  Certainly a testimony of the Book of Mormon being true is what converts people to the gospel by the power of the Holy Ghost.  However, we have always had a narative of how Joseph Smith got those plates, how they were written, what language, that they were made of gold and what Joseph Smith had to do before he could start translating the plates.  NONE of those things are important to whether the Book of Mormon is true or not, yet they have always been important in explaining how we got the Book of Mormon.  It seems to me, that to all the sudden no longer talk about the narative of how the Book of Mormon came about or how Joseph Smith was able to translate a language he knew nothing about is a bit odd.  When an investigator asks how Joseph Smith translated a language he knew nothing about, are missionaries going to fall back on the curtain on one side and Joseph reading the plates on the other story??

 

I agree, maybe more than you realize, that sticking a head in a hat and dictating the Book of Mormon is quite a feat.  One could only conclude that either the Book of Mormon is a fraud, or in fact it is the greatest miracle of the latter days.  Something no human could do by himself.  So why would or should the church shy away from not declaring how the Book of Mormon was translated??  

[california boy]

The Church is being truthful. I have no idea how this will be taught by the missionaries, but honesty is usually the best policy. Testimony comes by the Spirit, so we shall see. Reading shining words in a stone is no more troublesome for me than a dead man coming to life. No comments about the Temple Institute article on the urim and thummim?

 

I agree.  A much more honest approach than what has been done in the past.  I will take a look at the Temple Institute article.  Thanks for the heads up.

[california boy]

I have tried repeatedly (with not much success) to start a discussion comparing the process of translating the BoM (Nephite interpreters, the seer stone in the hat, and the liahona) with the description of how the ancient Israelite High Priests recieved revelation through the Urim and Thummim. The similarities are astounding. Both describe the appearance of revealed words appearing or shining in stones. I'm puzzled why this gets no traction, but it resonates with me. If we are guilty of associating with mysticism and magick, at least we appear to be in good historical company. From the Temple Institute of Jerusalem (non-LDS):

"And you shall set it with four rows of mounted stones; the first row: a ruby, an emerald, and a topaz. The second row: a carbuncle, a sapphire, and a quartz crystal. The third row: a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst. The fourth row: a chrysolite, an onyx, and an opal. These stones shall be placed in gold settings. The stones shall contain the names of the twelve children of Israel, one for each of the twelve stones; each one's name shall be engraved as on a signet ring, to represent the twelve tribes." (Ex. 28: 17-21) "And you shall place the Urim V'tummim in the breastplate of judgment, and they shall be over Aaron's heart when he comes before G-d." (ibid. v. 30)

The Urim V'Tummim was the famed, oracle-like aspect of the breastplate by which a Heavenly answer was received for important questions. According to most authoritative opinions, the expression urim v'tummim actually refers not to the breastplate itself, but to the mystical Divine name of G-d which was written on a piece of parchment and inserted into a flap of the garment. The presence of the name facilitated the reception of Divine guidance through the shining of specific letters on the stones.

The urim v'tummim is unlike any other aspect of the priestly garments, for it was not created by those skilled artisans who fashioned the other items, aided by their understanding and inspiration; and it was not created from the donations or contributions of Israel, as were all the other appointments of the Temple. The entire matter is one of those mysteries which was handed down to Moses at Mount Sinai by G-d Himself, and its secret was transmitted orally down through the generations.

At the time of the original Tabernacle erected in the desert, Moses took the original urim v'tummim, written in sublime holiness, and placed it inside the breastplate of judgment, after Aaron donned the ephod. This is reflected by the verse (Lev. 8:7), "... and he put the ephod upon him, and he fastened him with the belt of the ephod... and he put the breastplate upon him, and into the breastplate he put the urim v'tummim."

The process of questioning for Divine aid with the 'Urim V'Tummim' was done in the following manner: When a question arose whose implications were so consequential that the entire congregation of Israel would be effected-such as, for example, the question of whether or not to go out to war - then, the King of Israel (or the commanding officer of the army) would ask his question before the High Priest. An ordinary person, or someone not representing the entire community would not ask of the urim v'tummim.

The High Priest stands facing the Ark of the Testimony, and the questioner stands behind him, facing the priest's back. The questioner does not speak out loud, neither does he merely think the question in his heart; he poses his query quietly, to himself - like someone who prayers quietly before his Creator. For example, he will ask "Shall I go out to battle, or shall I not go out?"

The High Priest is immediately enveloped by the spirit of Divine inspiration. He gazes at the breastplate, and by meditating upon the holy names of G-d, the priest was able to receive the answer through a prophetic vision-the letters on the stones of the breastplate, which would shine forth in his eyes in a special manner, spelling out the answer to the question. The priest then informs the questioner of the answer.

Flavius Josephus writes (Antiquities 3:8:9) that the stones also shone brilliantly when Israel went forth into battle. This was considered as an auspicious sign for their victory.

Another midrashic passage indicates that when the tribes of Israel found favor in G-d's eyes, each respective stone shone brilliantly. But when particular members of any one tribe were involved in a transgression, that tribe's stone would appear tarnished and dimmed. The High Priest would see this phenomena and understand its cause. He would then cast lots within the rank of this tribe, until the guilty person was revealed and judged (Midrash HaGadol).

Am I the only one impressed by this? Your comments would be appreciated.

 

 

I am assuming you were referring to this post.  Here are my thoughts.

 

I LOVE this narrative.  One of the things that have always drawn me to the church was the claim that the heavens are no longer sealed, that God does reveal Himself and His will to the church once more through a living prophet.  Not just a title, but one who is able to receive revelation from God.  I personally don't care HOW that communication happens.  I care that it does happen.  

 

In this narrative, it clearly states that issues would be brought before God and a clear unwavering revelation would take place that the prophet was only relating and not creating.  Sadly I don't believe that the church can claim a prophet who speaks with God and God answers with the type of clear revelation your narrative testifies of.  The heavens seem to be sealed again from man.  Church leadership meets and debates policies and doctrine.  Statements and proclamations are issued, but none with the sure words of revelation attached to them.  The last revelation even claimed by the church was almost 50 years ago. No  prophetic visions where-the letters on the stones of the breastplate, which would shine forth in his eyes in a special manner, spelling out the answer to the question.  Instead we get doctrine by committee, put up for a unanimous vote.  So many questions face the current leadership.  No breastplate or seer stone or burning bush.  Just policy statements.  The seer stone is one again, just a rock, a curiosity from days gone by of a former time where God revealed His truths to us through it and his anointed prophet.

 

Sorry.  I must appear to some to be attacking the church.  I assure you I am not.  I have great respect for the church and its leaders.  I believe they are all good men trying their very best to be in line with what they think God wants them to do.  Not a single one does not seek the will of God in performing their leadership roles.  But, as others have pointed out, they are fallible humans struggling like the rest of us to do what we think is God's will. 

[Gervin]

 

poor 19th c. farm boys dressed so much nicer than the poor farm boys of today ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(nice spool-legged desk)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

 

No more magical than the translation app on your smart phone.

 

Bear in mind Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law:  "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

Several witnesses provided their version of what took place with the seerstone in the hat.  For example, Emma’s brother-in-law, Michael Morse (never a Mormon), knew Joseph in Harmony, Pennsylvania, and saw him translating on several occasions.  He later recalled that Joseph would place

 

the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating, word after word, while the scribes – Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other, wrote it down.  W. W. Blair letter, May 22, 1879, Sandwich, Illinois, to Saints’ Herald, 26 (June 15, 1879):190-191.

 

Joseph Knight, Sr., described in his diary the translation equipment and process.  Note his personal recollection of Joseph on the morning of September 22, 1827:

 

. . . he seamed to think more of the glasses or the urim and thummem then [than] he Did of the Plates, for, says he, “I can see any thing; they are Marvelus.  Now they are writen in Caracters and I want them translated.”

* * * *

Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkened his Eyes then he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters.  Then he would tell the writer and he would write it.  Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on.  But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous.  Thus was the hol translated.  BYU Studies, 17:33,35.

 

David Whitmer's version of this was told to J. L. Traughber, Jr., October 13, 1879:

 

With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state that he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim; but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone, called a “Seer Stone,” which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light.  Then, a spiritual light would shine forth, and parchment would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said.  Saints’ Herald, 26 (Nov 15, 1879):341; 109 (Nov 15, 1962):800.

 

This is a mere selection.  There are many more versions of this, none of which need have been in any way supernatural.

 

 

From all appearances a stone looks and functions nothing like my smart phone.

 

Until presented with actual sufficiently advanced technology that transforms a stone into a smart phone. I think it is best to follow the dictum that form follows function.

 

I'm not denying that the witness reported that. However that is not what Scripture and JS said and logic demands.

 

Supernatural means pertaining to God. Denying that the Book of Mormon, and the means of its translation, isn't pertaining to God negates the whole purpose of the Book of Mormon.

[Robert F. Smith]

From all appearances a stone looks and functions nothing like my smart phone.

 

Until presented with actual sufficiently advanced technology that transforms a stone into a smart phone. I think it is best to follow the dictum that form follows function.

 

I'm not denying that the witness reported that. However that is not what Scripture and JS said and logic demands.

 

Supernatural means pertaining to God. Denying that the Book of Mormon, and the means of its translation, isn't pertaining to God negates the whole purpose of the Book of Mormon.

Entirely false definition.  Look it up.

Your smartphone is a humanly constructed device which comes ultimately from solid-state technology (the transistor).  You might want to contemplate the similarity of the function of Joseph's seerstone to a virtual state transducer with a light-emitting diode display (which requires closing off of outside light).  You could also claim that solar panels cannot exist because they also use solid state technology -- thin slice stone wafers (crystalline silicon rock).  You are basically claiming that God could not activate such a stone device to serve his purposes, without ever a hint of the supernatural.  Or are you claiming that Bell Labs, where Mormons developed the transistor was a cabal of magicians?

[mapman]

President Nelson said this during his remarks during the dedication of the Harmony, Pennsylvania, church history site:

 

David Whitmer added, “One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was the principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear.”

God prepared sacred objects to assist Joseph with the translation. Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process. This pattern was not without precedent, as such instruments had been used by prophets throughout scriptural history to translate texts and receive divine communications.... Though the precise mechanics are unknown to us, we know that it was a spiritual process. For us here and now, individual faith and receiving a testimony of the Book of Mormon far outweigh any details of stories or descriptions of how the text was revealed to Joseph Smith.

 

They also showed a screenshot from what appears to be a new video about the translation (probably what maklelan was talking about). You can see the screenshot here. (I'm not sure how to imbed it here in my post).

 

I'm not sure what's supposed to be going on here. Oliver Cowdery is writing so they are translating, but the plates are wrapped up and Joseph Smith appears to be just saying the words out loud with his eyes closed. Does anyone know if there are any sources that describe the translation ever being like this?

Edited September 19, 2015 by mapman

[Bernard Gui]

I am assuming you were referring to this post.  Here are my thoughts.

 

I LOVE this narrative.  One of the things that have always drawn me to the church was the claim that the heavens are no longer sealed, that God does reveal Himself and His will to the church once more through a living prophet.  Not just a title, but one who is able to receive revelation from God.  I personally don't care HOW that communication happens.  I care that it does happen.  

 

In this narrative, it clearly states that issues would be brought before God and a clear unwavering revelation would take place that the prophet was only relating and not creating.  Sadly I don't believe that the church can claim a prophet who speaks with God and God answers with the type of clear revelation your narrative testifies of.  The heavens seem to be sealed again from man.  Church leadership meets and debates policies and doctrine.  Statements and proclamations are issued, but none with the sure words of revelation attached to them.  The last revelation even claimed by the church was almost 50 years ago. No  prophetic visions where-the letters on the stones of the breastplate, which would shine forth in his eyes in a special manner, spelling out the answer to the question.  Instead we get doctrine by committee, put up for a unanimous vote.  So many questions face the current leadership.  No breastplate or seer stone or burning bush.  Just policy statements.  The seer stone is one again, just a rock, a curiosity from days gone by of a former time where God revealed His truths to us through it and his anointed prophet.

 

Sorry.  I must appear to some to be attacking the church.  I assure you I am not.  I have great respect for the church and its leaders.  I believe they are all good men trying their very best to be in line with what they think God wants them to do.  Not a single one does not seek the will of God in performing their leadership roles.  But, as others have pointed out, they are fallible humans struggling like the rest of us to do what we think is God's will. 

Thank you for the comments, but my point was the manner in which the ancient urim and thummim and the  modern seer stone functioned......the words of revelation in shining stones. We cannot get around the fact that the Book of Mormon was revealed in an unusual way. If Joseph's experience is explained away or denied, the Book of Mormon has no value. But if we believe in the God of Israel, we shouldn't be ashamed of the seer stone. Only the witness of the Spirit can convince someone who believes such things are foolish, if he even gets far enough along to consider the book and read it. That will make missionary work more difficult in the our increasingly unbelieving world.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[JAHS]

President Nelson said this during his remarks during the dedication of the Harmony, Pennsylvania, church history site:

 

 

They also showed a screenshot from what appears to be a new video about the translation (probably what maklelan was talking about). You can see the screenshot here. (I'm not sure how to imbed it here in my post).

 

I'm not sure what's supposed to be going on here. Oliver Cowdery is writing so they are translating, but the plates are wrapped up and Joseph Smith appears to be just saying the words out loud with his eyes closed. Does anyone know if there are any sources that describe the translation ever being like this?

Elder Nelson also reminded us of the following in his remarks:

 

"In what was then called “the preface” to the Book of Mormon, Joseph explained, “I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God.” He later noted that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things."

 

That is all we have from Joseph Smith himself about the actual mechanism of translation. 

[thesometimesaint]

Entirely false definition.  Look it up.

Your smartphone is a humanly constructed device which comes ultimately from solid-state technology (the transistor).  You might want to contemplate the similarity of the function of Joseph's seerstone to a virtual state transducer with a light-emitting diode display (which requires closing off of outside light).  You could also claim that solar panels cannot exist because they also use solid state technology -- thin slice stone wafers (crystalline silicon rock).  You are basically claiming that God could not activate such a stone device to serve his purposes, without ever a hint of the supernatural.  Or are you claiming that Bell Labs, where Mormons developed the transistor was a cabal of magicians?

 

Just present the world with your naturally occurring stone that emits light that translates reformed Egyptian into modern English.

Edited September 20, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Robert F. Smith]

Just present the world with your naturally occurring stone that emits light that translates reformed Egyptian into modern English.

So, to repeat myself, "You are basically claiming that God could not activate such a stone device to serve his purposes, without ever a hint of the supernatural.  Or are you claiming that Bell Labs, where Mormons developed the transistor, was a cabal of magicians?"

Edited September 22, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[thesometimesaint]

So, to repeat myself, "You are basically claiming that God could not activate such a stone device to serve his purposes, without ever a hint of the supernatural.  Or are you claiming that Bell Labs, where Mormons developed the transistor was a cabal of magicians?"

 

God can do whatever he wants. That is the advantage off being omnipotent, and omniscient. For the record I have no problem with God.

 

But that isn't what your witnesses say; they claim that English words appeared on the stone such that Joseph, or anyone else, could have easily read them.

[longview]

God can do whatever he wants. That is the advantage off being omnipotent, and omniscient. For the record I have no problem with God.

 

But that isn't what your witnesses say; they claim that English words appeared on the stone such that Joseph, or anyone else, could have easily read them.

Just as words can appear on our phosphorus screens.  Is that magic?  Just because you do not have an explanation for seer stone illuminations and word formations does not mean you get to rule it out.  One person can see spiritual things because he/she is in tune with God but other people in the room may not see.

 

Remember God is the Scientist-In-Chief.   You, all scientists, and the rest of us are merely stumbling around in the dark discovering curiosities graciously given to us on an on going basis so that we can grow in knowledge, wisdom, and advancement.

[oremites]

But that isn't what your witnesses say; they claim that English words appeared on the stone such that Joseph, or anyone else, could have easily read them.

 

Did the witnesses really claim that anyone else could have seen or read the words? 

[thesometimesaint]

Did the witnesses really claim that anyone else could have seen or read the words? 

 

Not that I know of, but it is a fair supposition given that the words supposedly would appear in English.

[thesometimesaint]

Just as words can appear on our phosphorus screens.  Is that magic?  Just because you do not have an explanation for seer stone illuminations and word formations does not mean you get to rule it out.  One person can see spiritual things because he/she is in tune with God but other people in the room may not see.

 

Remember God is the Scientist-In-Chief.   You, all scientists, and the rest of us are merely stumbling around in the dark discovering curiosities graciously given to us on an on going basis so that we can grow in knowledge, wisdom, and advancement.

 

Then why didn't Joseph just use such a device? OH that's rights such would have been regarded a witchcraft and Joseph would have been burnt at the stake by his good Christian neighbors. Much better to use a magic rock, with unknown functions.

 

Somewhat true. I don't have a natural explanation for Joseph's magic rock that meets the demands of science. So I put it in the realm of Supernatural(Pertaining to God). Now if you want posit God onto science. I have a dinosaur for you to ride on.

 

I have no problem with God. However we're all in big trouble if our God is no bigger than the sum of what we don't know. IE; "Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle".

Galileo

[mapman]

Many of the people who worked with Joseph Smith during the translation believed that the seer stone emitted light in the form of English words, but as far as I'm aware there is no evidence that Joseph ever said that, and I'd say there is some evidence that he didn't experience the translation that way. As Elder Nelson and many others have pointed out, Joseph Smith would only say that he translated it by "the gift and power of God." What some people forget is that the Lord and/or Joseph Smith (depending on your point of view) also told us this in one of his revelations on the process of translation:

 

Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 9:7-9

 

This is the only statement made about the translation method of the Book of Mormon by someone directly involved in the translation. It doesn't match with the accounts of words appearing on the stone to be read off. They would indicate that Joseph was involved more in the process than some of his followers thought. My theory is that the stone helped him put himself into a state of mind to be more receptive to revelation, just as someone today would kneel down and fold their arms to be better able to commune with God. It's not really necessary to do that, but it is useful to that person.

Edited September 20, 2015 by mapman

[oremites]

Not that I know of, but it is a fair supposition given that the words supposedly would appear in English.

 

I don't think it's a fair supposition.  The translation was a spiritual, revelatory process.  I believe that anyone looking at the stone at the same time as Joseph would have seen nothing.

[longview]

 

Many of the people who worked with Joseph Smith during the translation believed that the seer stone emitted light in the form of English words, but as far as I'm aware there is no evidence that Joseph ever said that, and I'd say there is some evidence that he didn't experience the translation that way. As Elder Nelson and many others have pointed out, Joseph Smith would only say that he translated it by "the gift and power of God." What some people forget is that the Lord and/or Joseph Smith (depending on your point of view) also told us this in one of his revelations on the process of translation:

 

 

This is the only statement made about the translation method of the Book of Mormon by someone directly involved in the translation. It doesn't match with the accounts of words appearing on the stone to be read off. They would indicate that Joseph was involved more in the process than some of his followers thought. My theory is that the stone helped him put himself into a state of mind to be more receptive to revelation, just as someone today would kneel down and fold their arms to be better able to commune with God. It's not really necessary to do that, but it is useful to that person.

 

JS put his face in the hat in order to block out daylight so as to be able to see the seer stone illumination.

 

Is it your point that JS never did put the hat on his face?

[mapman]

JS put his face in the hat in order to block out daylight so as to be able to see the seer stone illumination.

 

Is it your point that JS never did put the hat on his face?

 

The historical sources that we have I think clearly establish that he did indeed put his face in the hat, but I'm skeptical that those witnesses understood what was going on with the stone since they didn't actually see that part and it contradicts how the translation process is described in a revelation from the Lord. I obviously don't know what actually happened, but it seems to me from the evidence I have examined that any light that was emitted by the stone was spiritual light, not literal light (photons).

 

So why did he need the hat? My theory is that he needed it to eliminate distractions and be able to get into a state of mind to be receptive to revelation, like a form of meditation that made sense to him in his cultural milieu. It would seem that revelations come easier when you are in an altered state of consciousness, like when you are meditating, sleeping, or fasting. Though this is speculation, I think that what Joseph Smith was experiencing when he put his face in the hat can be described in psychological terms as "sensory deprivement" which often leads to images and light appearing in the person's "mind's eye" (which, of you think about it, is essentially what happens to you when you are dreaming, except you are conscious). Whether such images are divine inspiration or not of course is a spiritual matter that can't be solved with the historical or scientific methods, but each person must find the answer for themselves by consulting God.

Edited September 21, 2015 by mapman

[Bernard Gui]

I'm comfortable with the seer stone for 2 reasons: 1. I believe in revelation from God to man. 2. It is consistent

with the description of how the urim and thummim was used to receive revelation by ancient Jewish High Priests.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[Robert F. Smith]

God can do whatever he wants. That is the advantage off being omnipotent, and omniscient. For the record I have no problem with God.

 

But that isn't what your witnesses say; they claim that English words appeared on the stone such that Joseph, or anyone else, could have easily read them.

I guess you don't get the point, which is that primitive peoples regularly describe advanced technology in supernatural terms, and are confused by it.  Now that we live in a time in which such devices are ordinary, we shouldn't suffer the same confusion.  You are perhaps unable to extrapolate from modern devices to archaic and naive descriptions.

 

There are also people who conceive of biblical Creation in supernatural terms, and imagine God creating instantly by fiat, and not by entirely natural means over a very long period of time.  Of course, the Bible is not a science text, and the Brethren have frequently made the salient point that much of what we read is figurative (Eve being made from Adam's rib, for example).  Literalists have a problem with that.

[Robert F. Smith]

Then why didn't Joseph just use such a device? OH that's rights such would have been regarded a witchcraft and Joseph would have been burnt at the stake by his good Christian neighbors. Much better to use a magic rock, with unknown functions.

Of course, a number of contemporaries used seerstones, and others used divining rods.  It had been a hundred years since the execution of witches in Salem, Mass (Joseph's ancestors were there).  Not clear what you are driving at here.

 

................ I don't have a natural explanation for Joseph's magic rock that meets the demands of science. So I put it in the realm of Supernatural(Pertaining to God). Now if you want posit God onto science. I have a dinosaur for you to ride on.

You continue to use a false definition of "supernatural," which is literally nonsense in the view of most philosophers.  Supernature is outside of nature and thus not amenable to natural explanation.  Since the LDS version of God is natural and an integral part of nature, that makes no sense.  The supernatural god of normative religion is now as dead as the dinosaurs which once roamed this planet.

 

I have no problem with God. However we're all in big trouble if our God is no bigger than the sum of what we don't know. IE; "Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle".

Galileo

Yeh, is God so powerful that He can create a rock so big that He can't lift it?  A paradox.  One of many that accompany traditional views of God, and which lead to death of god theologies.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't think it's a fair supposition.  The translation was a spiritual, revelatory process.  I believe that anyone looking at the stone at the same time as Joseph would have seen nothing.

 

So a light emitting rock that translated reformed Egyptian into modern English that only Joseph could read.

[thesometimesaint]

Of course, a number of contemporaries used seerstones, and others used divining rods.  It had been a hundred years since the execution of witches in Salem, Mass (Joseph's ancestors were there).  Not clear what you are driving at here.

 

You continue to use a false definition of "supernatural," which is literally nonsense in the view of most philosophers.  Supernature is outside of nature and thus not amenable to natural explanation.  Since the LDS version of God is natural and an integral part of nature, that makes no sense.  The supernatural god of normative religion is now as dead as the dinosaurs which once roamed this planet.

 

Yeh, is God so powerful that He can create a rock so big that He can't lift it?  A paradox.  One of many that accompany traditional views of God, and which lead to death of god theologies.

 

As a child I had a lucky rabbits foot. Kept it until I realized it wasn't very lucky for that rabbit. Now was it? Any sufficiently advance technology would be indistinguishable from magic.

 

Supernatural "Pertaining to God" That is the dictionary definition of Supernatural. You do know what a Special Pleading means?

SEE http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html/

 

 

Yes it is a paradox. But I like this one better as it doesn't posit any God onto science.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox#/media/File:Escher_Waterfall.jpg