Ordain Women Is Returning To Temple Square

[KevinG]

Two straight guys arguing over what gays should be called.

 

Pass the popcorn!  

[Gray]

"Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like." - Jack Handy, Deep Thoughts

Edited September 1, 2015 by Gray

[why me]

I'm sure I heard or read that the women did have the PH somewhere in church history. I'm canning salsa today so will have to find time to find it and get back to you.

It doesn't seem that women were ordained in the priesthood. Certainly if so, emma would have been called to the priesthood. But she wasn't. And such ordinance would have to have come from oliver or joseph. And I see no record of that happening. However, this is not the point. The point is what the OW website does say. For example:

 

Ordain Women aspires to create a space for Mormons to articulate issues of gender inequality they may be hesitant to raise alone. As a group we intend to put ourselves in the public eye and call attention to the need for the ordination of Mormon women to the priesthood.

 

I don't see any call to prayer or for a revelation. And this:

 

 Ordain Women believes women must be ordained in order for our faith to reflect the equity and expansiveness of these teachings.

 

But then we do have this also:

 

We sincerely ask our leaders to take this matter to the Lord in prayer.

 

Of course the two quotations before this prayer request null and void the prayer request. And as such, OW is just a little hypocritical and full of duplicity. Don't you agree?

Edited September 1, 2015 by why me

[KevinG]

Edited September 1, 2015 by KevinG

[rockpond]

It doesn't seem that women were ordained in the priesthood. Certainly if so, emma would have been called to the priesthood. But she wasn't. And such ordinance would have to have come from oliver or joseph. And I see no record of that happening.

 

You might find this interesting:  http://signaturebookslibrary.org/women-and-authority-17/

[ERayR]

I'm sure I heard or read that the women did have the PH somewhere in church history. I'm canning salsa today so will have to find time to find it and get back to you.

 

I Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.      

[HappyJackWagon]

I Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.      

You're telling the woman to be silent. Really nice.

Sexist much?

[KevinG]

You're telling the woman to be silent. Really nice.

Sexist much?

 

I think you missed the snark...  By the way can you answer my CFR in post #141 above.  Thanks!

Edited September 1, 2015 by KevinG

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but as a heterosexual person your declaration that "SSA is not offensive" doesn't carry much weight against the gay people that have told me it is offensive.

I don't want to back up four or five pages...where did "SSM" enter into this thread?

[why me]

You might find this interesting:  http://signaturebookslibrary.org/women-and-authority-17/

From the link:

 

The temple endowment has not changed in fundamental ways since its introduction. The endowment gives today exactly what it conferred from 1842 to 1846. During those four years Joseph Smith and those he endowed all affirmed that women receive the Melchizedek priesthood when they receive the endowment. The docu[385]ments of nineteenth-century Mormon history also indicate that women have been heirs and recipients of the Melchizedek priesthood since the days of biblical patriarchs. Melchizedek priesthood conferral has always been independent of the offices of the LDS church.

 

Mormon women already have God’s priesthood of spiritual power. Without asking permission they may draw on the power of the Melchizedek priesthood that is theirs by birthright and by divine endowment. However, it is necessary for endowed women to receive permission of the church to use their priesthood in church settings to administer the sacrament, baptize, confirm, or administer temple ordinances. Without ordination to priesthood offices, each endowed LDS woman already has the opportunity to fulfill in her life the prophet’s promise: “I now turn the key to you in the name of God.”

 

I  don't think that no one is denying the last two paragraphs. But I don't think that OW know these facts.

[ERayR]

You're telling the woman to be silent. Really nice.

Sexist much?

 

Not me that was Paul. 

[MorningStar]

This thread is about Ordain Women and how silly they are.  *hint hint*

[Russell C McGregor]

That's fine.  Just recognize that the preferred terms (by the individuals themselves) seem to be gay, lesbian, or homosexual and not SSA.  And those terms don't deny what it is.

No, they deliberately identify the individual with their sins.

To the extent that an individual identifies with her sins, she perceives a barrier to repentance. Her sins are wrong things that she does, but if she tells herself that they define her identity, then calling her to repentance is perceived as an attack upon who she is.

That's why the Saints don't use labels that identify people with their sins.

And why the wicked try to bully us into doing so.

[Russell C McGregor]

Earlier blog:

"We will let Church leaders know that it is time that women be ordained and take their place as full equals with their brothers in the church."

Wow. Just wow.

They will let Church leaders know, will they?

The hubris is simply amazing!

[MorningStar]

Wow. Just wow.

They will let Church leaders know, will they?

The hubris is simply amazing!

So much for the, "We're just asking The First Presidency to pray about it" claim, huh?

[Scott Lloyd]

No, they deliberately identify the individual with their sins.

To the extent that an individual identifies with her sins, she perceives a barrier to repentance. Her sins are wrong things that she does, but if she tells herself that they define her identity, then calling her to repentance is perceived as an attack upon who she is.

That's why the Saints don't use labels that identify people with their sins.

And why the wicked try to bully us into doing so.

This post very succinctly sums up the whole point of contention on this matter and why strident gay pressure groups are insisting on jettisoning the term same-sex attraction.

 

They're trying to revamp the vernacular as a means of pushing their political agenda, just as strident feminists did two generations ago by trying to (and largely succeeding in) replacing words like spokesman and spokeswoman with "spokesperson," or businessman and businesswoman with "businessperson." I will never go along with such mangling or corruption of the language for partisan political purposes. It's cultural tyranny.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

 

HappyJackWagon, on 01 Sept 2015 - 2:49 PM, said:

You're telling the woman to be silent. Really nice.

Sexist much?

 

EREay- Not me that was Paul. 

 

Don't hide behind the Bible. You used a scripture to tell Tacenda to be quiet because it is not a woman's place to speak up. Pretty dispicable.

[Scott Lloyd]

Don't hide behind the Bible. You used a scripture to tell Tacenda to be quiet because it is not a woman's place to speak up. Pretty dispicable.

Lighten up. It was an attempt at humor.

 

Tacenda left herself open to it by insisting that she just knew she remembered reading somewhere that women held the priesthood but that she was too busy with her salsa to substantiate it.

[KevinG]

You can disagree with them but this simply isn't accurate. Before their first event on temple square they asked for a couple of things.

 

1- To meet with church leadership to discuss the idea of female ordination. They never received a response to their request for a meeting.

 

2- They asked that the prophet take the matter to the Lord and seek revelation on the matter. To date I don't recall seeing anything from the church stating that female ordination has been a matter of prayer among top leadership.

 

Again, you can disagree, but don't misrepresent.

 

ETA- I don't have access to the original requests OW sent to the church and hven't been able to find them online.

 

Then you will forgive us for disagreeing with your assertion that OW asked for things before they started demanding them if you cannot provide evidence for it.

 

You can disagree, but don't misrepresent.

[Russell C McGregor]

Don't hide behind the Bible. You used a scripture to tell Tacenda to be quiet because it is not a woman's place to speak up. Pretty dispicable.

It was obvious to me that it was a joke.

And I'm glad that it wasn't me who called another poster "dispicable"[sic].

Edited September 1, 2015 by Russell C McGregor

[bluebell]

Don't hide behind the Bible. You used a scripture to tell Tacenda to be quiet because it is not a woman's place to speak up. Pretty dispicable.

Could you not see his emoticons? I ask because it seems pretty obvious, by the winkie face for example, that he wasn't saying that to Tacenda at all.

[Avatar4321]

I'm sorry, but as a heterosexual person your declaration that "SSA is not offensive" doesn't carry much weight against the gay people that have told me it is offensive.

So we need to lie to keep from offending the wicked?

I'll pass

[Zakuska]

I know....   An Anti Protestor should show up with Pauls 1 Cor. "Women be silent"  Scripture on a sign and stand around while these OW women do their thing and see how that goes over.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Zakuska

[ERayR]

Don't hide behind the Bible. You used a scripture to tell Tacenda to be quiet because it is not a woman's place to speak up. Pretty dispicable.

 

Nice that you know more than I do about my thoughts and motives.  I notice you have a tendency to use that tactic as a bullying technique.   Pretty despicable.  (note no emoticons for you).

[Tacenda]

Lighten up. It was an attempt at humor.

 

Tacenda left herself open to it by insisting that she just knew she remembered reading somewhere that women held the priesthood but that she was too busy with her salsa to substantiate it.

 

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book#!/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book&p=5

 

I think it was in the Mormon Discussions Podcast that she noted that women did at one time hold the PH.  I didn't have time to re-listen, didn't hook up to my phone, but instead sweated through two pair of garments to work in my garden.  Just sat down to do some research to see why the OW think women had the PH at one time.  This is what I found in the JS's Papers.  I c/p it below.  It's probably been mentioned a thousand times on the board and answered that it isn't the case as many times.  But here it is for you to look at.  I guess women were ordained Deacons and Teachers at one time. 

 

"Let this Presidency serve as a constitution— all their  decisions be considered law; and acted upon as such.

If any Officers are wanted to carry out the designs of  the Institution, let them be appointed and set apart, as  Deacons

An ecclesiastical and priesthood office. The “Articles and Covenants” directed deacons to assist teachers in their duties. Deacons were also to “warn, expound, exhort, and teach and invite all to come unto Christ.” Although deacons did not have the authority...

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, Teachers

Generally, one who instructs, but also an ecclesiastical and priesthood office. The Book of Mormon explained that teachers were to be ordained “to preach repentance and remission of sins through Jesus Christ, by the endurance of faith on his name to the end...

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& c. are among us.

The minutes of your meetings will be precedents  for you to act upon— your Constitutio[n] and law.

He then suggested the propriety of electing a Presidency  to continue in office during good behavior, or so long as they  shall continue to fill the office with dignity &c. like the  first Presidency

The highest presiding body of the church. An 11 November 1831 revelation stated that the president of the high priesthood was to preside over the church. JS was ordained as president of the high priesthood on 25 January 1832. In March 1832, JS appointed two...

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of the church

The Book of Mormon related that when Christ set up his church in the Americas, “they which were baptized in the name of Jesus, were called the church of Christ.” The first name used to denote the church JS organized on 6 April 1830 was “the Church of Christ...

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.—

[1 line blank]

Motioned by Sister Whitney

26 Dec. 1800–15 Feb. 1882. Born at Derby, New Haven Co., Connecticut. Daughter of Gibson Smith and Polly Bradley. Moved to Ohio, 1819. Married Newel K. Whitney, 20 Oct. 1822, at Kirtland, Geauga Co., Ohio. Shortly after, joined reformed Baptist (later Disciples...

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and seconded by  Sister Packard that Mrs. Emma Smith

10 July 1804–30 Apr. 1879. Scribe, editor, boardinghouse operator, clothier. Born at Willingborough Township (later in Harmony), Susquehanna Co., Pennsylvania. Daughter of Isaac Hale and Elizabeth Lewis. Member of Methodist church at Harmony (later in Oakland...

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be chosen President—  passed unanimously—

Mov’d by Prest. Smith, that Mrs. Smith

10 July 1804–30 Apr. 1879. Scribe, editor, boardinghouse operator, clothier. Born at Willingborough Township (later in Harmony), Susquehanna Co., Pennsylvania. Daughter of Isaac Hale and Elizabeth Lewis. Member of Methodist church at Harmony (later in Oakland...

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proceed  to choose her Counsellors, that they may be ordain’d

The conferral of power and authority; to appoint, decree, or set apart. Church members, primarily adults, were ordained to ecclesiastical offices and other responsibilities by the laying on of hands by those with the proper authority. Ordinations to priesthood...

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to  preside over this Society, in taking care of the poor— administ ering to their wants, and attending to the various affairs  of this Institution.

The Presidentess Elect

10 July 1804–30 Apr. 1879. Scribe, editor, boardinghouse operator, clothier. Born at Willingborough Township (later in Harmony), Susquehanna Co., Pennsylvania. Daughter of Isaac Hale and Elizabeth Lewis. Member of Methodist church at Harmony (later in Oakland...

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, then made choice of Mrs.  Sarah M. Cleveland and Mrs. Elizabeth Ann Whitney

26 Dec. 1800–15 Feb. 1882. Born at Derby, New Haven Co., Connecticut. Daughter of Gibson Smith and Polly Bradley. Moved to Ohio, 1819. Married Newel K. Whitney, 20 Oct. 1822, at Kirtland, Geauga Co., Ohio. Shortly after, joined reformed Baptist (later Disciples...

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 for Counsellors—

President Smith read the Revelation to Emma  Smith

10 July 1804–30 Apr. 1879. Scribe, editor, boardinghouse operator, clothier. Born at Willingborough Township (later in Harmony), Susquehanna Co., Pennsylvania. Daughter of Isaac Hale and Elizabeth Lewis. Member of Methodist church at Harmony (later in Oakland...

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, from the book of Doctrine and Covenants; and  stated that she was ordain’d at the time, the Revelation  was given, to expound the scriptures to all; and to teach  the female part of community; and that not she alone,  but others, may attain to the same blessings.— [p. 8]"