Ordain Women Is Returning To Temple Square

[Tacenda]

You're telling the woman to be silent. Really nice.

Sexist much?

I think I know ERayR enough to know he's joking.  So no big deal. 

[Calm]

 

ETA- I don't have access to the original requests OW sent to the church and hven't been able to find them online.

Perhaps this is what you are thinking of, I thought I had heard of a meeting being asked for but I think it was just the tickets now that I've have gone back and reread what I read before:

 

Several women requested tickets to the priesthood session from their local leaders but were denied. A formal letter of request was submitted to the Temple Square events director, the LDS Conference Center Ticket Office, the LDS Public Affairs Department, and general authorities of the LDS Church. On September 24, Ruth Todd, a Church spokesperson, responded in writing to this request, officially denying it. According to Todd, “It is the hope of the Church that the priesthood session will strengthen the men and young men including fathers and sons, and give them the opportunity to gather and receive instruction related to priesthood duties and responsibilities, much the same way parallel meeting are held for sisters, such as the general Relief Society meeting. It’s for these reasons that tickets for the priesthood session are reserved for men and young men and we are unable to honor your request for tickets or admission.”

 

Considering how they've documented everything it would appear in the Action section of their website, I would think there would have been mention of a letter  asking for a meeting prior to the first protest there.

 

http://ordainwomen.org/actions/page/3/

 

http://ordainwomen.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Ticket-Letters.pdf

Edited September 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No, they deliberately identify the individual with their sins.

To the extent that an individual identifies with her sins, she perceives a barrier to repentance. Her sins are wrong things that she does, but if she tells herself that they define her identity, then calling her to repentance is perceived as an attack upon who she is.

That's why the Saints don't use labels that identify people with their sins.

And why the wicked try to bully us into doing so.

This is quite possible the best post that I have seen in a while that clearly identifies the real issues here.

[rockpond]

So we need to lie to keep from offending the wicked?

I'll pass

I didn't suggest that anyone lie. Where are you getting that from? And who are the wicked you are referring to? I didn't say anything about "wicked" people.

[rockpond]

This post very succinctly sums up the whole point of contention on this matter and why strident gay pressure groups are insisting on jettisoning the term same-sex attraction.

They're trying to revamp the vernacular as a means of pushing their political agenda, just as strident feminists did two generations ago by trying to (and largely succeeding in) replacing words like spokesman and spokeswoman with "spokesperson," or businessman and businesswoman with "businessperson." I will never go along with such mangling or corruption of the language for partisan political purposes. It's cultural tyranny.

Let's bring down the rhetoric. Is it also cultural tyranny for the Church to ask that it not be referred to as the "Mormon Church"? It's you and Russell that are turning this into much more than it is.

[Calm]

Here are the minutes without the additions of information because that was somewhat confusing to me:
 

Let this Presidency serve as a constitution— all their decisions be considered law; and acted upon as such.
If any Officers are wanted to carry out the designs of the Institution, let them be appointed and set apart,as Deacons, Teachers &c. are among us.
The minutes of your meetings will be precedents for you to act upon— your Constitutio[n] and law.
He then suggested the propriety of electing a Presidency to continue in office during good behavior, or so long as they shall continue to fill the office with dignity &c. like the first Presidency of the church.—
[1 line blank]
Motioned by Sister Whitney and seconded by Sister Packard that Mrs. Emma Smith be chosen President— passed unanimously—
Mov’d by Prest. Smith, that Mrs. Smith proceed to choose her Counsellors, that they may be ordain’d to preside over this Society, in taking care of the poor— administ ering to their wants, and attending to the various affairs of this Institution.

 

In both cases it could be read as following the examples of being appointed and set apart, not being appointed and set apart as Deacons, etc.

 

In fact, I don't really see how the "are among us" really reads another way.

 

Surely if they were deacons and teachers it would have read " let them be appointed and set apart as Deacons, Teachers &c. among us".   The comma and the "are" changes the meaning of the sentence.

 

There is also this "If any Officers are wanted to carry out the designs of the Institution"....

 

Why is it a conditional if JS was intent on giving the Priesthood to women?  It seems instead to mean if any organization is to be formed, it should be set up the same way as the Priesthood is.  This does not mean it is the Priesthood.

Edited September 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[MorningStar]

Let's bring down the rhetoric. Is it also cultural tyranny for the Church to ask that it not be referred to as the "Mormon Church"? It's you and Russell that are turning this into much more than it is.

*ahem*

 

Topic is about Ordain Women.  And their silliness.

[Scott Lloyd]

Let's bring down the rhetoric. Is it also cultural tyranny for the Church to ask that it not be referred to as the "Mormon Church"? It's you and Russell that are turning this into much more than it is.

So it's not as big a deal as we've been led to believe? Boy, that's a relief!

 

Because I have been accused of being among the most vile kind of racists over this matter. To wit:

 

You continue to use offensive language when using that term.  Now you can not plead some kind of ignorance.  You will know in your heart that EVERY TIME you use the term SSA, you are using a term that is offensive to the gay population.  Now if you continue to use that word, that is your choice.  You are free to be as offensive to the gay population as you want to be.  But just know that when you type SSA, you are using s slur similar to "slant eyes" or "wet back" or "Negro".  Yeah you are one of those guys.

 

End of discussion as far as I am concerned.  The next move is entirely up to you.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

*ahem*

 

Topic is about Ordain Women.  And their silliness.

Yes. Thank you for the reminder.

[Scott Lloyd]

Here are the minutes without the additions of information because that was somewhat confusing to me:

 

 

In both cases it could be read as following the examples of being appointed and set apart, not being appointed and set apart as Deacons, etc.

 

In fact, I don't really see how the "are among us" really reads another way.

 

Surely if they were deacons and teachers it would have read " let them be appointed and set apart as Deacons, Teachers &c. among us".   The comma and the "are" changes the meaning of the sentence.

 

There is also this "If any Officers are wanted to carry out the designs of the Institution"....

 

Why is it a conditional if JS was intent on giving the Priesthood to women?  It seems instead to mean if any organization is to be formed, it should be set up the same way as the Priesthood is.  This does not mean it is the Priesthood.

That's how I read it.

 

If anything, it is too ambiguous to be taken as an indication that women were to be ordained to the priesthood.

[Russell C McGregor]

Here are the minutes without the additions of information because that was somewhat confusing to me:

 

 

In both cases it could be read as following the examples of being appointed and set apart, not being appointed and set apart as Deacons, etc.

 

In fact, I don't really see how the "are among us" really reads another way.

 

Surely if they were deacons and teachers it would have read " let them be appointed and set apart as Deacons, Teachers &c. among us".   The comma and the "are" changes the meaning of the sentence.

 

There is also this "If any Officers are wanted to carry out the designs of the Institution"....

 

Why is it a conditional if JS was intent on giving the Priesthood to women?  It seems instead to mean if any organization is to be formed, it should be set up the same way as the Priesthood is.  This does not mean it is the Priesthood.

Good analysis. Interesting that Tacenda's source left off those rather important words "are among us." (I don't blame Tacenda for that, BTW.)

It's becoming a bit archaic now, but the oldest meaning of "as" is "like." So I read the minutes as saying that if the Relief Society has any officers, then they should be set apart to fill those responsibilities, like Deacons and Teachers are set apart to fill theirs.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Russell C McGregor

[Tacenda]

Good analysis. Interesting that Tacenda's source left off those rather important words "are among us." (I don't blame Tacenda for that, BTW.)

It's becoming a bit archaic now, but the oldest meaning of "as" is "like." So I read the minutes as saying that if the Relief Society has any officers, then they should be set apart to fill those responsibilities, like Deacons and Teachers are set apart to fill theirs.

My source is the actual JS' s Papers. Maybe I'm missing something or missed it from having a possible sunstroke today!

Wow, just read over my post! I c/p but mysteriously the added information came up as Cal has stated. Didn't notice this until now.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Tacenda

[Avatar4321]

I didn't suggest that anyone lie. Where are you getting that from? And who are the wicked you are referring to? I didn't say anything about "wicked" people.

You want people to stop using ssa to describe people who have ssa because the truth offends them. Instead you would prefer to us to use a label that makes people think their identity centers around their sin. That is a lie. One specifically designed for political purposes to attack those who try to invite the sinner to repentance.

And this entire thread is talking about wicked people. There is only man who has walked this planet who didn't deserve that title. The difference is some get offended when they are called to repentance.

[rockpond]

You want people to stop using ssa to describe people who have ssa because the truth offends them. Instead you would prefer to us to use a label that makes people think their identity centers around their sin. That is a lie. One specifically designed for political purposes to attack those who try to invite the sinner to repentance.

And this entire thread is talking about wicked people. There is only man who has walked this planet who didn't deserve that title. The difference is some get offended when they are called to repentance.

 

Having homosexual attraction is not a sin.  So your comment is out of line with LDS doctrine.

 

Use whatever terms you want.  Treat people however you feel is right.  All I said was that it seems most LGBT people find it offensive to be called "SSA".

[rockpond]

So it's not as big a deal as we've been led to believe? Boy, that's a relief!

 

Because I have been accused of being among the most vile kind of racists over this matter. To wit:

 

No, it certainly doesn't rise to the level of "cultural tyranny".  And you are not a racist.  Maybe everyone should step it down a bit.

[MorningStar]

Closing my thread. Maybe until tomorrow.  Now go to your rooms and think about what you've done.  There are like 50 SSA threads at any given time.  Seriously.  This board should be renamed "The Same Sex Marriage/Same Sex Attraction Board Where We Sometimes Talk About Mormonism".