Today's Perspective On An Old Testament Controversy

[savedbygrace]

I wonder how many people struggle with the God of the OT. Whilst at a Bible study recently a lady commented that she could not relate to the God of the OT, in fact she didn't see Him as her God, as she had come to know Him in light of the NT. We had been reading about God's judgement on various tribes and the divine edict which often was to wipe them out, an edict which was carried out by the Israelites. I wonder if there is something about holiness that is a bit beyond our grasp here. God is holy and no unclean thing can enter into His presence, what He saw in the sins of these tribes was so offensive to Him that his justice required they they should perish by the sword. I too found these events disturbing, but I know that He is one and the same God. In these modern times we have witnessed almost unprecedented acts of cruelty and lack of respect for human dignity. Dreadful murders have been publicly committed, rape abounds, people kidnapped and enslaved, genocidal atrocities have been relayed to us almost nightly. So, if God, through whatever means, wiped out mercilessly say ISIS, would it help us to better understand those OT events which leave us perplexed sometimes? Would it help us to better understand what righteous indignation really is, and to see who our God really is: Holy and Righteous who will not let evil go unpunished?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Hopefully there are enough good people in the world to have Heavenly Father go easy on us. But we do know that at the time of the 2nd coming the world will be full of such evil. Let's all make sure we're worthy enough ourselves and pray often for the safety and well being and protection from God for our loved ones.

[The Nehor]

I don't believe some of the OT authors knew the mind of God as well as they thought they did.

[bjw]

In my early years of studying the Bible I struggled with this. We may never know why God had to deal so harshly with ot peoples, but some reasons I've heard to reconcile it are that some were demon possessed or had some seeds of demons that would allow demonic possession, people were opening doors to portals, people were more wicked than what the text says, or simply that God had to be harsh so Jesus could counter with the opposite. Some even say there was a good God and a bad God in the more liberal circles. It is something interesting to ponder.

[savedbygrace]

I don't believe some of the OT authors knew the mind of God as well as they thought they did.

Could you clarify please?

[savedbygrace]

Hopefully there are enough good people in the world to have Heavenly Father go easy on us. But we do know that at the time of the 2nd coming the world will be full of such evil. Let's all make sure we're worthy enough ourselves and pray often for the safety and well being and protection from God for our loved ones.

Don't you think that the world is full of such evil now, and has been for centuries, we don't know when the second coming will happen, can it get much worse?

[The Nehor]

Don't you think that the world is full of such evil now, and has been for centuries, we don't know when the second coming will happen, can it get much worse?

 

Sure it can.

 

Could you clarify please?

 

I somehow doubt the chroniclers of the Old Testament who seemed obsessed with how rich the temple was, the pomp of glory of Israel under David and Solomon (both of whom fell horribly) and seemed to think the massacre of other nations filled YHWH with joy really knew God that well. I think the history is probably reasonably accurate but the motives and emotions they impute to God.....not so much.

[JAHS]

In my early years of studying the Bible I struggled with this. We may never know why God had to deal so harshly with ot peoples, but some reasons I've heard to reconcile it are that some were demon possessed or had some seeds of demons that would allow demonic possession, people were opening doors to portals, people were more wicked than what the text says, or simply that God had to be harsh so Jesus could counter with the opposite. Some even say there was a good God and a bad God in the more liberal circles. It is something interesting to ponder.

"or simply that God had to be harsh so Jesus could counter with the opposite."

 

Of course the even more difficult thing to understand about this is that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament. We did see a little of His wrath when He cleared the money changers out of the temple.  Jesus is both our judge and Savior. Perhaps He was just being more of a judge in the OT and more of a Savior in the NT. 

[JLHPROF]

I think we all misunderstand the balance between justice and mercy, between law and spirit.

 

The stories in the OT primarily show God being the executor of the law, passing judgement on wicked societies and people.

The stories in the NT primarily show God being the merciful father, offering forgiveness to the repentant sinners.

 

He is both, in perfect balance, regardless of which way the stories in either testament point.

 

I think we will see this again as the end time prophecies come to pass.  We will see God destroying entire nations, cities, and states, down the last man, woman and child.  We will see the righteous in heart being led out and comforted.  God is endlessly patient, but eventually has to pass judgement.

[VideoGameJunkie]

How lucky are the people that are born during the millennium and don't have to worry about evils of the world and will live in a time of peace.

[MDalby]

I like this article on the God of the Old Testament.

 

http://ldsmag.com/article-1-2407/

 

 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

(Isaiah 59:8-9)

 

 27 … thus we see that the Lord worketh in many ways to the salvation of his people.

(Alma 24:27)

 

I don't think we have the full picture on a lot of the events in the OT.

[JAHS]

"or simply that God had to be harsh so Jesus could counter with the opposite."

 

Of course the even more difficult thing to understand about this is that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament. We did see a little of His wrath when He cleared the money changers out of the temple.  Jesus is both our judge and Savior. Perhaps He was just being more of a judge in the OT and more of a Savior in the NT. 

 

Then there is His wrathful activity during NT times when He destroyed the land of the Nephites:

 

Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.

And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.

And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.

And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

 

And it goes on and on for almost the whole chapter 9 of 3 Nephi. So it wasn't just in the OT times we saw His judgment made manifest.

[bjw]

"or simply that God had to be harsh so Jesus could counter with the opposite."

 

Of course the even more difficult thing to understand about this is that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament. We did see a little of His wrath when He cleared the money changers out of the temple.  Jesus is both our judge and Savior. Perhaps He was just being more of a judge in the OT and more of a Savior in the NT.

I think this is one thing that appealed to me about the LDS position and the way 2 Nephi explains it, definitely makes a lot more sense.

[Calm]

Would it help us to better understand what righteous indignation really is, and to see who our God really is: Holy and Righteous who will not let evil go unpunished?

The problem is, however, that people don't see evil being consistently punished, but flourishing in many places. Trusting that punishment comes may work for those who already believe, but otherwise it can appear to be very arbitrary and arbitrariness is not just.

I think that kind of example would only work if God wiped out all those who willingly particiapted in evil of a degree that few questioned that it was evil....but then there are many who don't view groups like ISIS as evil, but appropriate responses to the evil of others. So such treatment using genocide would never work for everyone, it seems to me, except in very few very extreme cases.

[The Nehor]

The problem is, however, that people don't see evil being consistently punished, but flourishing in many places. Trusting that punishment comes may work for those who already believe, but otherwise it can appear to be very arbitrary and arbitrariness is not just.

I think that kind of example would only work if God wiped out all those who willingly particiapted in evil of a degree that few questioned that it was evil....but then there are many who don't view groups like ISIS as evil, but appropriate responses to the evil of others. So such treatment using genocide would never work for everyone, it seems to me, except in very few very extreme cases.

 

One of the points of this life is that justice is delayed for a time so we can sample good and evil without direct divine intervention rewarding or punishing us overtly.

[Stone holm]

I wonder how many people struggle with the God of the OT. Whilst at a Bible study recently a lady commented that she could not relate to the God of the OT, in fact she didn't see Him as her God, as she had come to know Him in light of the NT. We had been reading about God's judgement on various tribes and the divine edict which often was to wipe them out, an edict which was carried out by the Israelites. I wonder if there is something about holiness that is a bit beyond our grasp here. God is holy and no unclean thing can enter into His presence, what He saw in the sins of these tribes was so offensive to Him that his justice required they they should perish by the sword. I too found these events disturbing, but I know that He is one and the same God. In these modern times we have witnessed almost unprecedented acts of cruelty and lack of respect for human dignity. Dreadful murders have been publicly committed, rape abounds, people kidnapped and enslaved, genocidal atrocities have been relayed to us almost nightly. So, if God, through whatever means, wiped out mercilessly say ISIS, would it help us to better understand those OT events which leave us perplexed sometimes? Would it help us to better understand what righteous indignation really is, and to see who our God really is: Holy and Righteous who will not let evil go unpunished?

If you read the Old Testament with the Book of Mormon in mind or as a filter, and simply discount or toss away traditional spin on what we're probably just recitation of Hebrew historical events, I think the God of the Old Testament starts looking more consistent with the God of the New Testament. But if you just consider the OT and compare it to the NT, I think there really is a problem reconciling the two beings as being the same God. The Old Testament for the most part is fun reading. The nonsensical spin that gets put on some of its stories is pretty absurd at times. And genocide is genocide whatever your religion might be and the Old Testament reeks of genocide and puts God on the side of the ruthless killers. On the other hand, in the Book of Mormon despite its periodic racism, God is never the advocate of genocide.

[Hillel2]

Per the genocidal passages of the Hebrew Bible...

I would not be alone in pointing out that the passages to exterminate the 7 nations should be read against the historical context of the time. Everybody was at war with everybody and if you were not you weren't around for long. Moreover, these wars were consistantly imagined in religious terms...my deity against yours. A careful reading of the offending texts points to an attempt to "clean up" genocide...e.g. Taking none of their property and burning it as an offering to G-d. All dreadful stuff but then it was a dreadful place and time and improvement in the Bible always comes in small doses.

Extra-biblical traditions try to clarify the ban on the Canaanites. Several sources point out that they were guilty of unspeakable evils...imagine an entire nation composed of Hitlers. Other sources state that the evil Cannanites were still to be given the opportunity to repent and make peace...only their refusal would mandate the ban. Luckily in our day we don't have to deal with the issue at all.

Personally, i've aleays wondered if some of the horrible commandments were tests..in the manner that Adam and Eve were confronted with an ethical dilemma in LDS thought. I.E. Do we obey the command to commit genocide or do we say, sorry ,can't do that....My temperament would motivare me to refuse to implement the ban. Maybe there is an innate moral code which we are beginning to grasp and G-d wants us to esteem that over obedience to H-m. ...just a thougjt.

Finally, as some have pointed out, just because your god wouldn't order such dreadful things doesn't mean G-d couldn't. Who can understand any one's reasons let alone the mind of G-d. :-)

[Tacenda]

In my early years of studying the Bible I struggled with this. We may never know why God had to deal so harshly with ot peoples, but some reasons I've heard to reconcile it are that some were demon possessed or had some seeds of demons that would allow demonic possession, people were opening doors to portals, people were more wicked than what the text says, or simply that God had to be harsh so Jesus could counter with the opposite. Some even say there was a good God and a bad God in the more liberal circles. It is something interesting to ponder.

Stop it with portals, circles, demons!! I can't hear you!! (closing my eyes)

[jkwilliams]

I always thought that the events of 3 Nephi pretty much bridge whatever gap people assume between the vengeful God of the Old Testament and the gentle Jesus of the New Testament. If the account is literal, Jesus wrought a lot of death and destruction in the Americas.

[thesometimesaint]

Us mortals have been doing evil and blaming God for it a long time now.

[Robert F. Smith]

The problem is, however, that people don't see evil being consistently punished, but flourishing in many places. Trusting that punishment comes may work for those who already believe, but otherwise it can appear to be very arbitrary and arbitrariness is not just.

I think that kind of example would only work if God wiped out all those who willingly particiapted in evil of a degree that few questioned that it was evil....but then there are many who don't view groups like ISIS as evil, but appropriate responses to the evil of others. So such treatment using genocide would never work for everyone, it seems to me, except in very few very extreme cases.

Islamic State adherents (and many other jihadists) see themselves as the tip of God's spear in smiting the ungodly, but this is not at all outside the realm of modern political and religious extremism.  From the rape camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina decades ago to the modern institutionalization of sexual slavery and rape within ISIS, we are seeing merely a couple of examples of a worldwide move to the extreme right in politics and religion.  Genocide and assassination have become accepted alternatives to failed modern, democratic solutions.  Thus, right-wing Israeli extremists can justify the outright murder of Palestinians or the assassination of a fellow Jew, Yitzhak Rabin,* in addition to the burning of Christian churches.  We will see more of this in the future.

 

*  Prime Minister Rabin was a Nobel Peace Prize winner, 

[rpn]

... God is holy and no unclean thing can enter into His presence, what He saw in the sins of these tribes was so offensive to Him that his justice required they they should perish by the sword...

Who says that what He required has anything whatever to do with punishment?   Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that He determined that mankind's return to Him would have been jeopardized had He not stepped in to assure that agency remained and that the circumstances that mankind needed to learn what they need to learn and become what they need to become flourished?

 

The reason we have so much trouble with the "God of the Old Testament" is that we cannot see His vision of the eternities from where we are.

[JLHPROF]

Us mortals have been doing evil and blaming God for it a long time now.

 

Almost as long as men have been doing God's will and being told "the God I believe in wouldn't do that".

[Saint Sinner]

I'm not of the opinion that the full magnitude of God's mind and will can be fathomed or understood by finite, sentient beings, prophet or not.

[mnn727]

The question assumes you to believe the O.T. was true and historical rather than just being a primitive tribes way of explaining things they didn't understand or a way to explain their behavior in killing off entire tribes of their enemies or people that were in their way

 

I don't.

 

I believe Christians for centuries have twisted themselves in knots trying to reconcile the O.T. with the N.T.