Today's Perspective On An Old Testament Controversy

[savedbygrace]

Yeah, and it's the same reason I am not interested in people who say they think we should still be living the law of Moses. Scary.

Do people say this? As Christans surely we know that the Law of Moses is fulfilled in Christ.

[savedbygrace]

Who says that what He required has anything whatever to do with punishment?   Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that He determined that mankind's return to Him would have been jeopardized had He not stepped in to assure that agency remained and that the circumstances that mankind needed to learn what they need to learn and become what they need to become flourished?

 

The reason we have so much trouble with the "God of the Old Testament" is that we cannot see His vision of the eternities from where we are.

No

[savedbygrace]

Yeah, you nailed it. We have also been taking historical events in the Bible and trying to spin them into some moral point to justify what happened. I suspect that Abraham offering up Isaac could have been a test, but for moral validity we would have said that Abraham flunked it. The more appropriate response having been, "No, I will not do such an evil thing" and God blessing him for his refusal and informing him by this you know that human sacrifice is not acceptable to Me.

But Abraham didn't flunk it, which is why he was blessed

[Saint Sinner]

But surely God's people should keep His Law, but Israel is as secular as any other nation. Besides which Christ is our new and everlasting covenant which means that Christians who are baptised are His children. But like Israel we have to live the life God expects of us as His children. If Israel is a sinful nation along with all others then it's chosen status may make its judgement more harsh.

I am not of the opinion that the Hebrew Bible and tradition can be reinterpreted through the eyes of the NT.

[bluebell]

. Do you really believe that Heavenly Father was the One who made up the recipe for the Atonement? Do you really believe that God would have made up the rules which required that His Son be brutally tortured and killed? That I do not believe. I believe that it was a requirement, but that it was required by the intelligences of the universe to prove that His love was so great that His joy would have not been full without us. Thus human sacrifice was never acceptable to Heavenly Father, although the Ancient Hebrews probably practiced it.

No, I don't believe your ideas on the atonement are supported by scripture and I don't agree they are correct.

However, they do seem to contradict your earlier statement so maybe I'm not understanding them right. You seem to believe that Abraham actually failed the test when he offered up Isaac and that truly passing would have been him refusing.

But doesn't that then mean that God, being willing to offer up His Son to the intelligences of the universe, also actually failed the test. The right action would have been for Him to have refused because human sacrifice is not acceptable?

Can God participate in sin and still be God?

[thesometimesaint]

Actually the Jews brought the Gospel to the world at the meridian of time, and have been a great blessing for mankind in general -- in keeping with the Abrahamic promise -- and they play a key role in end-time prophecy.  You will soon see them grafted back into the original tree, and their full blessings will return as at first.  And the first shall be the last, and the last shall be the first.

 

But they didn't extend it to others. It was just for them and them alone. I never left it I'm from the tribe of Ephraim. As I said they were too small, mean, and judgmental for the job.

[Hillel2]

But they didn't extend it to others. It was just for them and them alone. I never left it I'm from the tribe of Ephraim. As I said they were too small, mean, and judgmental for the job.

[Hillel2]

I'm not so sure this is accurate. During the Roman period the Jews conducted extensive missionizing throughout the Mediterranean... There are many Jewish cemetaries found in predominantly Roman settlements. What is interesting is that most of the names are Latin, i.e. these folks are converts. It is commonly speculated that Jews accounted for 5-10% of the Roman empire's population...not the result of their incredible fecudity. Then there were the G-d Fearers...monotheists who followed a lite version of the Law.

Can't give You a source at the moment but i have read on a couple of places that Judaism was every bit as popular and accessible as Christianity up till the time the latter was adopted as the official religion. After that it was a capital crime for jews to solicit converts... Though it still happened.

Any one with sincere intentions is welcome to join the Covenant. It's been that way since Jethro, Ruth et al. :-)

[Calm]

When you find a source would be highly interested.

[Hillel2]

Hello. One source i recall is Lous Feldman's History of Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World ...it discusses almost exhaustively the phenomenon of Jewish Outreach to the non-jewish world...jewish missionaries won over several royal families in Arabia, Yemen, Armenia and the very famous khazaria. Judaism was so popular in pre-mongol invasion Kiev that the Rus. orthodox clergy constantly engaged in polemics against the temptations of The religion.

It wouls seem that Christianity was able to avail itself of all the converts to Judaism lite...the inroads were there for them to reach the masses.

[Thinking]

The OT Law was a hard teacher wasn't it?

 

I wouldn't call it teaching - more like training.

[rodheadlee]

Um aren't you guys mixing up the Jews and the House of Israel or separating them when they should not be separated? The blessings of God to Abraham would include the whole House of Israel.

[Calm]

Hello. One source i recall is Lous Feldman's History of Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World ...it discusses almost exhaustively the phenomenon of Jewish Outreach to the non-jewish world...jewish missionaries won over several royal families in Arabia, Yemen, Armenia and the very famous khazaria. Judaism was so popular in pre-mongol invasion Kiev that the Rus. orthodox clergy constantly engaged in polemics against the temptations of The religion.

It wouls seem that Christianity was able to avail itself of all the converts to Judaism lite...the inroads were there for them to reach the masses.

Thank you, I will look for it.

[Robert F. Smith]

But they didn't extend it to others. It was just for them and them alone. I never left it I'm from the tribe of Ephraim. As I said they were too small, mean, and judgmental for the job.

Yet, throughout the ages, the Jews have maintained their dogged adherence to the Abrahamic covenant, for which they have paid a bitter price.  Though small in number, they have managed to bless mankind with with some of the most important discoveries in medicine, advanced technology, etc.  Adolf Hitler was deeply embarrassed and angered that German Jews garnered about one-third of all Nobel Prizes, even though they constituted less than one-half of one percent of the German population, and Hitler got even by killing most of European Jewry.  If they were so small, mean, and judgmental, why bother to kill over 6 million of them?

 

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

 

Romans 11:1 "Hath God cast away his people? God forbid."

[Gray]

The view of who or what God is has evolved significantly over the centuries, within Judaism and other Abrahamic groups. That should not be surprising. 

[Hillel2]

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

 

Verses like these are why I don't like reading the Old Testament.

 

It's rather serendiptious that You shoud choose this passage. It's part of the Torah reading for this week. :-)

 

What can i tell You? On the face of things it does sound rather unpleasant. OTOH, the rabbis teach that a proper understanding of the text requires knowledge of the oral tradition which explains the matter in this way:

 

The son in question is a drunkard and a glutton. The words in question have a much stronger meaning in Hebrew than in English. It's not just that he eats too much and drinks too much but that he's willing to steal to support his habit. Not merely that but the oral tradition sees theft as the crime that, after everything, precipitated the great flood. And THAT's not the end of the matter...The son is willing to steal from his parents...so, in effect, he is just about the worst kind of human being feasible according to this interpretation. The death penalty is imposed as a public safety measure (remember, prisons were in short supply in those days and they didn't have the means to maintain them as they do today).

 

On top of all this, Rabbinic Law makes the death penalty extremely difficult to impose. You must have two or more witnesses of impeccable reputation physically witness the act in question. They must warn the offending party to desist. The offending party must possess understanding of what he is doing and he must publicly reject their rebuke. Even after all this, the death penalty is simply the maximum. Circumstances permitting, there are other way's to remove the evil from Israel.

 

The rabbis teach that this is an Illustrative passage, i.e. it never happened and probably never will. The point of the passage is to inculcate how important it is for parents to see eye to eye in child rearing and to make the child's proper education/upbringing their primary focus in life because if they don't...you'll get the worst kind of human being imaginible.

 

The Hebrew Bible/OT is subject to multiple interpretations but it is important to be aware that just because it sounds scary, doesn't mean it has to be scary. Once context is supplied one can see that it reflects  high moral standards and was a considerable improvement over what came before.

 

And so goes the Law of Moses and the attempt to live it  :-)

[bluebell]

It's rather serendiptious that You shoud choose this passage. It's part of the Torah reading for this week. :-)

 

What can i tell You? On the face of things it does sound rather unpleasant. OTOH, the rabbis teach that a proper understanding of the text requires knowledge of the oral tradition which explains the matter in this way:

 

The son in question is a drunkard and a glutton. The words in question have a much stronger meaning in Hebrew than in English. It's not just that he eats too much and drinks too much but that he's willing to steal to support his habit. Not merely that but the oral tradition sees theft as the crime that, after everything, precipitated the great flood. And THAT's not the end of the matter...The son is willing to steal from his parents...so, in effect, he is just about the worst kind of human being feasible according to this interpretation. The death penalty is imposed as a public safety measure (remember, prisons were in short supply in those days and they didn't have the means to maintain them as they do today).

 

On top of all this, Rabbinic Law makes the death penalty extremely difficult to impose. You must have two or more witnesses of impeccable reputation physically witness the act in question. They must warn the offending party to desist. The offending party must possess understanding of what he is doing and he must publicly reject their rebuke. Even after all this, the death penalty is simply the maximum. Circumstances permitting, there are other way's to remove the evil from Israel.

 

The rabbis teach that this is an Illustrative passage, i.e. it never happened and probably never will. The point of the passage is to inculcate how important it is for parents to see eye to eye in child rearing and to make the child's proper education/upbringing their primary focus in life because if they don't...you'll get the worst kind of human being imaginible.

 

The Hebrew Bible/OT is subject to multiple interpretations but it is important to be aware that just because it sounds scary, doesn't mean it has to be scary. Once context is supplied one can see that it reflects  high moral standards and was a considerable improvement over what came before.

 

And so goes the Law of Moses and the attempt to live it  :-)

 

Thank you for sharing that.  It reminds me how limited my scripture knowledge really is, and also gives me hope that understanding is possible with enough knowledge.  

[thesometimesaint]

Yet, throughout the ages, the Jews have maintained their dogged adherence to the Abrahamic covenant, for which they have paid a bitter price.  Though small in number, they have managed to bless mankind with with some of the most important discoveries in medicine, advanced technology, etc.  Adolf Hitler was deeply embarrassed and angered that German Jews garnered about one-third of all Nobel Prizes, even though they constituted less than one-half of one percent of the German population, and Hitler got even by killing most of European Jewry.  If they were so small, mean, and judgmental, why bother to kill over 6 million of them?

 

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

 

Romans 11:1 "Hath God cast away his people? God forbid."

 

The Abrahamic Covenant includes the Muslims. At one time the Muslims lead the world in science and the arts.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Edited August 24, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

Yet, throughout the ages, the Jews have maintained their dogged adherence to the Abrahamic covenant, for which they have paid a bitter price.  Though small in number, they have managed to bless mankind with with some of the most important discoveries in medicine, advanced technology, etc.  Adolf Hitler was deeply embarrassed and angered that German Jews garnered about one-third of all Nobel Prizes, even though they constituted less than one-half of one percent of the German population, and Hitler got even by killing most of European Jewry.  If they were so small, mean, and judgmental, why bother to kill over 6 million of them?

 

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

 

Romans 11:1 "Hath God cast away his people? God forbid."

 

About 3000 years separates Joshua, the one who invaded what is now Israel and killed everyone he could, and that infamous German dictator who likewise killed everyone he could.  I never said two wrongs make a right.

[Stone holm]

No, I don't believe your ideas on the atonement are supported by scripture and I don't agree they are correct.

However, they do seem to contradict your earlier statement so maybe I'm not understanding them right. You seem to believe that Abraham actually failed the test when he offered up Isaac and that truly passing would have been him refusing.

But doesn't that then mean that God, being willing to offer up His Son to the intelligences of the universe, also actually failed the test. The right action would have been for Him to have refused because human sacrifice is not acceptable?

Can God participate in sin and still be God?

I tend to think that the Story of Abraham and Isaac actually took place, but I have some questions about God's role in the whole thing, whether that was a later spin put on the whole thing. There are some implications in the Old Testament that the Ancient Hebrews practiced human sacrifice like many of the Ancient people. I tend to believe that if God had a role in the whole situation, it was to put an end to the human practice of human sacrifice. I don't think that either Heavenly Father or Jesus found human sacrifice as acceptable, but I would suggest that there is an implication in the Book of Ether that God's power and authority, in essence what makes him God, is His ability to command the respect and obedience of the intelligences of the universe. Since Christ said that there is no act of love such as giving up one's life for another. Then what Christ was actually doing was showing the intelligences of the universe that his love for us was so great, that His joy would not be full unless we were with him as free acting brothers and sisters in the Celestial Kingdom. It wasn't a matter of Heavenly Father making up a game plan which required that his only begotten Son be brutally tortured and put to death, it was the recipe that had been worked out that worked with the intelligences to effect what needed to happen. It had been worked out eons ago -- so far in the distant past that as the songwriter said no matter how far or how long we travel we will never find the grand beginning when Gods first came to be. It was Heavenly Father's Plan the same way that a sugar cookie recipe being passed down might be called Grandma's Sugar Cookie recipe -- that doesn't mean she made up the ingredient list. If there were a different way without that particular ingredient, I am sure He would have done away with it -- but that is why we rejected Satan's Plan, simply because Satan's Plan wouldn't have worked. You cannot make Celestial Beings by taking away their free agency, which is what Satan proposed -- we would have all been Zombie like robots with Satan pulling the strings.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Abrahamic Covenant includes the Muslims. At one time the Muslims lead the world in science and the arts.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Correct.  While Europe was shrouded in the Dark Ages, the Muslims were having a golden age, from which the European Renaissance was born.

 

So sad that Islam is now enshrouded in the night of the long knives, and that so many Muslims practice shirk.

[Robert F. Smith]

About 3000 years separates Joshua, the one who invaded what is now Israel and killed everyone he could, and that infamous German dictator who likewise killed everyone he could.  I never said two wrongs make a right.

One might take as a rule that God may take any life at any time, or, as they say at some funerals:  "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away: Blessed be the name of the Lord."  You can in effect equate God with Hitler, if you wish.  But is that a fair comparison in view of the sovereignty of God?

 

The extraordinarily high moral and ethical teachings of the Jews should be worthy of your consideration.  I was deeply moved by them as a very young California boy back in the 1950s:  Very early every Sunday morning, I used to catch a clear channel NBC radio broadcast from New York City called "The Eternal Light."  It was produced by the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, and it exhibited the tremendously clever ability of Jewish writers and actors to pose and solve compelling moral dilemmas.  Subsequently, I have had some teachers and associates who were graduates of JTSA -- profound thinkers all.  One should never underestimate or sneer at the Jews.  Learn from them while one may.

[bluebell]

I tend to think that the Story of Abraham and Isaac actually took place, but I have some questions about God's role in the whole thing, whether that was a later spin put on the whole thing. There are some implications in the Old Testament that the Ancient Hebrews practiced human sacrifice like many of the Ancient people. I tend to believe that if God had a role in the whole situation, it was to put an end to the human practice of human sacrifice. I don't think that either Heavenly Father or Jesus found human sacrifice as acceptable, but I would suggest that there is an implication in the Book of Ether that God's power and authority, in essence what makes him God, is His ability to command the respect and obedience of the intelligences of the universe. Since Christ said that there is no act of love such as giving up one's life for another. Then what Christ was actually doing was showing the intelligences of the universe that his love for us was so great, that His joy would not be full unless we were with him as free acting brothers and sisters in the Celestial Kingdom. It wasn't a matter of Heavenly Father making up a game plan which required that his only begotten Son be brutally tortured and put to death, it was the recipe that had been worked out that worked with the intelligences to effect what needed to happen. It had been worked out eons ago -- so far in the distant past that as the songwriter said no matter how far or how long we travel we will never find the grand beginning when Gods first came to be. It was Heavenly Father's Plan the same way that a sugar cookie recipe being passed down might be called Grandma's Sugar Cookie recipe -- that doesn't mean she made up the ingredient list. If there were a different way without that particular ingredient, I am sure He would have done away with it -- but that is why we rejected Satan's Plan, simply because Satan's Plan wouldn't have worked. You cannot make Celestial Beings by taking away their free agency, which is what Satan proposed -- we would have all been Zombie like robots with Satan pulling the strings.

 

Well, I don't agree with your spin on it but it's a very interesting idea.  Thanks for explaining it.  

[savedbygrace]

It has been good to read these posts. Thanks to everyone for joining in the discussion and for your thoughts and insights.

However, I am still contemplating the subject of God's holiness. What is amazing to me is that He wants to share that holiness with us and from Scripture we see that the work of the Holy Spirit is our sanctification until we are no longer ourselves, but Christ who dwells within us. It is an amazing Grace.

[thesometimesaint]

One might take as a rule that God may take any life at any time, or, as they say at some funerals:  "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away: Blessed be the name of the Lord."  You can in effect equate God with Hitler, if you wish.  But is that a fair comparison in view of the sovereignty of God?

 

The extraordinarily high moral and ethical teachings of the Jews should be worthy of your consideration.  I was deeply moved by them as a very young California boy back in the 1950s:  Very early every Sunday morning, I used to catch a clear channel NBC radio broadcast from New York City called "The Eternal Light."  It was produced by the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, and it exhibited the tremendously clever ability of Jewish writers and actors to pose and solve compelling moral dilemmas.  Subsequently, I have had some teachers and associates who were graduates of JTSA -- profound thinkers all.  One should never underestimate or sneer at the Jews.  Learn from them while one may.

 

I don't believe God is a Hitler. I think man acts like Hitler then blames it on God.

 

I think we should learn everything we can from as many people as we can.

 

"Truth is truth no matter where we find it".

Brigham Young

Edited August 25, 2015 by thesometimesaint