Joshua Valentine Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Has anyone here read Paul Copan's Is God a Moral Monster? I'm thinking if adding it to my reading list, but hesitate. Any one read it and can give some thoughts.If there are any other books people would like to recommend (and give reason why), I would appreciate it and think it could be helpful to this topic.
Bobbieaware Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 The question assumes you to believe the O.T. was true and historical rather than just being a primitive tribes way of explaining things they didn't understand or a way to explain their behavior in killing off entire tribes of their enemies or people that were in their way I don't. I believe Christians for centuries have twisted themselves in knots trying to reconcile the O.T. with the N.T.In the. book of 2nd Nephi, the Prophet Nephi testifies that one of the reasons why the Book of Mormom would come forth in the last days is to answer difficult doctrinal questions and settle religious controversies. In keeping with this promise, Nephi explains the solemn and terrible reason why God commanded the hosts of Israel to utterly destroy the inhabitants of the promised land before taking possession of it. And that reason is that, much like the wicked Nephites who were utterly destroyed by the convulsions of nature just prior to Christ's appearance to the more righteous portion of the Nephites in ancient America, the inhabitants of Canaan had fully ripened in iniquity and were damning the selves further and further each passing day by their total rebellion against God and the holy prophets who warned them of a complete destruction if they did not repent and turn to God. Though it's unlikely Nephi's words will have any effect on your mindset, I include them here for those who may be more disposed to believe God was justified in commanding the children of Israel to bring judgement upon a people who had reached the point of no return. In this instance, for his own reasons, rather than use convulsions of nature to destroy the wicked the Lord chose human agents to execute his will. 32 And after they (the children of Israel) had crossed the river Jordan he (God) did make them mighty unto the driving out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction. 33 And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. 34 Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay. 35 Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But behold, this people had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it. (1 Nephi 17) 1
Stone holm Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Us mortals have been doing evil and blaming God for it a long time now.Yeah, you nailed it. We have also been taking historical events in the Bible and trying to spin them into some moral point to justify what happened. I suspect that Abraham offering up Isaac could have been a test, but for moral validity we would have said that Abraham flunked it. The more appropriate response having been, "No, I will not do such an evil thing" and God blessing him for his refusal and informing him by this you know that human sacrifice is not acceptable to Me. 1
bluebell Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Yeah, you nailed it. We have also been taking historical events in the Bible and trying to spin them into some moral point to justify what happened. I suspect that Abraham offering up Isaac could have been a test, but for moral validity we would have said that Abraham flunked it. The more appropriate response having been, "No, I will not do such an evil thing" and God blessing him for his refusal and informing him by this you know that human sacrifice is not acceptable to Me. Except that human sacrifice is acceptable to God. Otherwise, there would have been no Atonement. 2
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 In the. book of 2nd Nephi, the Prophet Nephi testifies that one of the reasons why the Book of Mormom would come forth in the last days is to answer difficult doctrinal questions and settle religious controversies. In keeping with this promise, Nephi explains the solemn and terrible reason why God commanded the hosts of Israel to utterly destroy the inhabitants of the promised land before taking possession of it. And that reason is that, much like the wicked Nephites who were utterly destroyed by the convulsions of nature just prior to Christ's appearance to the more righteous portion of the Nephites in ancient America, the inhabitants of Canaan had fully ripened in iniquity and were damning the selves further and further each passing day by their total rebellion against God and the holy prophets who warned them of a complete destruction if they did not repent and turn to God.Though it's unlikely Nephi's words will have any effect on your mindset, I include them here for those who may be more disposed to believe God was justified in commanding the children of Israel to bring judgement upon a people who had reached the point of no return. In this instance, for his own reasons, rather than use convulsions of nature to destroy the wicked the Lord chose human agents to execute his will.32 And after they (the children of Israel) had crossed the river Jordan he (God) did make them mighty unto the driving out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction.33 And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.34 Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.35 Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But behold, this people had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it. (1 Nephi 17) The problem is that the Old Testament is pretty clear that the Israelites were not especially righteous during the time of the Exodus but were quite human. They complained, they built idols, they rebelled against Moses and the priesthood. And yet they were given the promised land not because they were righteous but because they were the chosen people of God. If there is one overriding theme of the Old Testament, it is that the House of Israel is chosen in spite of itself.
savedbygrace Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 I'm not of the opinion that the full magnitude of God's mind and will can be fathomed or understood by finite, sentient beings, prophet or not.I agree that knowing the totality of God's mind is not possible, but through scripture He has made his attributes/chacteristics known to us because He wants us to know and love him. Without scripture what would we know of God at all. So while we.finite beings cannot fully understand Him, he has graciously given us enough knowledge so that we can respond to Him and have relationship with Him.
savedbygrace Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 The problem is that the Old Testament is pretty clear that the Israelites were not especially righteous during the time of the Exodus but were quite human. They complained, they built idols, they rebelled against Moses and the priesthood. And yet they were given the promised land not because they were righteous but because they were the chosen people of God. If there is one overriding theme of the Old Testament, it is that the House of Israel is chosen in spite of itself.This true, and is true for us, thank God He has provided for us despite our unworthyness
canard78 Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Sure it can. I somehow doubt the chroniclers of the Old Testament who seemed obsessed with how rich the temple was, the pomp of glory of Israel under David and Solomon (both of whom fell horribly) and seemed to think the massacre of other nations filled YHWH with joy really knew God that well. I think the history is probably reasonably accurate but the motives and emotions they impute to God.....not so much. I like this quote from Elder Richards Responding to skeptics' claims that "the God of the Hebrews is a capricious, jealous, tribal God, fighting the battles of his favored people and reveling in the defeat of their enemies," Elder Stephen L. Richards asked: "What if Hebrew prophets, conversant with only a small fraction of the surface of the earth, thinking and writing in terms of their own limited geography and tribal relations did interpret Him in terms of a tribal king and so limit His personality and the laws of the universe under His control to the dominion with which they were familiar? Can any interpreter even though he be inspired present his interpretation and conception in terms other than those with which he has had experience and acquaintance? Even under the assumption that Divinity may manifest to the prophet higher and more exalted truths than he has ever before known and unfold to his spiritual eyes visions of the past, forecasts of the future and circumstances of the utmost novelty, how will the inspired man interpret? Manifestly, I think, in the language he knows and in the terms of expression with which his knowledge and experience have made him familiar. So is it not therefore ungenerous, unfair and unreasonable to impugn the validity and the whole worth of the Bible merely because of the limited knowledge of astronomy and geography that its writers possessed." An Open Letter to College Students Elder Stephen L. Richards of the Quorum of the Twelve (Improvement Era 36:451-453, 484-485, June 1933)http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/Richards,%20Stephen%20L/RichardsSL_ALetterToCollegeStudents.html 2
Saint Sinner Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I agree that knowing the totality of God's mind is not possible, but through scripture He has made his attributes/chacteristics known to us because He wants us to know and love him. Without scripture what would we know of God at all. So while we.finite beings cannot fully understand Him, he has graciously given us enough knowledge so that we can respond to Him and have relationship with Him.We are able to see God through those who have shaped and formed scripture. It is not enough to see God through the eyes of prophets. We must learn to see God through our own eyes as determined by our individual relationships with Him. How Isaiah, Paul and Joseph Smith saw God is not of a single mind or perspective. It is important to always remember this.
ERayR Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 The problem is that the Old Testament is pretty clear that the Israelites were not especially righteous during the time of the Exodus but were quite human. They complained, they built idols, they rebelled against Moses and the priesthood. And yet they were given the promised land not because they were righteous but because they were the chosen people of God. If there is one overriding theme of the Old Testament, it is that the House of Israel is chosen in spite of itself. You think Calvin may have been on to something?
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 You think Calvin may have been on to something? Are you suggesting the Old Testament is Calvinist?
ERayR Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Are you suggesting the Old Testament is Calvinist? Your statement was Calvinist. "The problem is that the Old Testament is pretty clear that the Israelites were not especially righteous during the time of the Exodus but were quite human. They complained, they built idols, they rebelled against Moses and the priesthood. And yet they were given the promised land not because they were righteous but because they were the chosen people of God. If there is one overriding theme of the Old Testament, it is that the House of Israel is chosen in spite of itself."
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Your statement was Calvinist. "The problem is that the Old Testament is pretty clear that the Israelites were not especially righteous during the time of the Exodus but were quite human. They complained, they built idols, they rebelled against Moses and the priesthood. And yet they were given the promised land not because they were righteous but because they were the chosen people of God. If there is one overriding theme of the Old Testament, it is that the House of Israel is chosen in spite of itself." Not if chosen != predestined. I don't see the connection.
ERayR Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Not if chosen != predestined. I don't see the connection. I just thought the "in spite of themselves" sounded Calvinistic.
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I just thought the "in spite of themselves" sounded Calvinistic. People have been debating for millennia as to what it means for the House of Israel to be chosen. IMO, the Old Testament makes it pretty obvious that, whatever it means, it's not necessarily a result of the Israelites' righteousness. 1
Thinking Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Deuteronomy 21:18-2118 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Verses like these are why I don't like reading the Old Testament.
jkwilliams Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Verses like these are why I don't like reading the Old Testament. Yeah, and it's the same reason I am not interested in people who say they think we should still be living the law of Moses. Scary.
Saint Sinner Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 People have been debating for millennia as to what it means for the House of Israel to be chosen. IMO, the Old Testament makes it pretty obvious that, whatever it means, it's not necessarily a result of the Israelites' righteousness.There is not a single religious movement or church that is God's chosen to the degree that Israel is.
Stone holm Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 Except that human sacrifice is acceptable to God. Otherwise, there would have been no Atonement.. Do you really believe that Heavenly Father was the One who made up the recipe for the Atonement? Do you really believe that God would have made up the rules which required that His Son be brutally tortured and killed? That I do not believe. I believe that it was a requirement, but that it was required by the intelligences of the universe to prove that His love was so great that His joy would have not been full without us. Thus human sacrifice was never acceptable to Heavenly Father, although the Ancient Hebrews probably practiced it.
thesometimesaint Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 People have been debating for millennia as to what it means for the House of Israel to be chosen. IMO, the Old Testament makes it pretty obvious that, whatever it means, it's not necessarily a result of the Israelites' righteousness. IMNTBHO the Israelite's were supposed to be the people who brought the gospel to the world. But proved to be too small, mean, and judgmental for the job.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 23, 2015 Posted August 23, 2015 IMNTBHO the Israelite's were supposed to be the people who brought the gospel to the world. But proved to be too small, mean, and judgmental for the job.Actually the Jews brought the Gospel to the world at the meridian of time, and have been a great blessing for mankind in general -- in keeping with the Abrahamic promise -- and they play a key role in end-time prophecy. You will soon see them grafted back into the original tree, and their full blessings will return as at first. And the first shall be the last, and the last shall be the first. 1
savedbygrace Posted August 23, 2015 Author Posted August 23, 2015 People have been debating for millennia as to what it means for the House of Israel to be chosen. IMO, the Old Testament makes it pretty obvious that, whatever it means, it's not necessarily a result of the Israelites' righteousness.But the root of this goes back to God's choice of Abraham to whom the promise/covenant were made, He would not go back on His word however much Abraham's descendants tried His patience.
savedbygrace Posted August 23, 2015 Author Posted August 23, 2015 There is not a single religious movement or church that is God's chosen to the degree that Israel is.But surely God's people should keep His Law, but Israel is as secular as any other nation. Besides which Christ is our new and everlasting covenant which means that Christians who are baptised are His children. But like Israel we have to live the life God expects of us as His children. If Israel is a sinful nation along with all others then it's chosen status may make its judgement more harsh.
savedbygrace Posted August 23, 2015 Author Posted August 23, 2015 Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Verses like these are why I don't like reading the Old Testament.The OT Law was a hard teacher wasn't it?
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