Saint Sinner Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Disclaimer: I ask that this thread not be derailed into discussion of sexual ethics, sin, etc. If violations occur, I'll ask the mods to either remove a poster or shut down the thread. To be clear, I am not even going to attempt to argue that persecution has existed and does now exist. That is evident. My concern is arising from those claiming persecution with little thought. In a way, I think a persecution complex has developed and pervaded modern society. Playing the part of victim to a violator. I have seen real persecution and the claims of persecution in the United States is somewhat of a joke to me. I respect and find value in both the religious and the secular. But rather than target each other, both sides should be looking for a common ground of compromise in which neither is favored above the other. No one is attempting to beat the other into submission. Is there room for this reasoning?
Damien the Leper Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 I'm not sure either side could humble themselves enough to rationally concede to compromise. But I'm cynical. 1
CV75 Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Is there room for this reasoning?Persecution is a complex issue (as is aid), and there are many more options than just win-lose and compromise in dealing with it. But there is certainly room for compromise as you suggest, but there may be even better outcomes since the best leaders seek win-win. Please provide a few examples of “real” religious vs. secular persecution in the world that do not exist in the USA, and a few examples in the USA are “jokes,” and how these contribute to what you are trying to accomplish with this discussion. It seems you might be looking at preventing persecution or preventing allegations of persecution (?).
Storm Rider Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 The conflict between the secular and religious communities seems to often stem from one party feeling compelled to subjugate the influence of the other party. There is such a deep, fundamental misunderstanding of tolerance that almost always the term is misused and those that squawk the loudest and most often about a lack of tolerance are the most intolerant in their communities and throughout the world. I would really like to see leaders spend more time leading their respective communities, states, nations, and people in what it means to be a proper citizen and what is expected of them. I don't know of any leaders that actually speak to everyone, rather they spend their time pandering to their group and castigating all those that disagree with their political agenda. The victim of this behavior is the group, the nation itself. There is no vision and no direction for the people or for the leaders. Persecution of religions is real in the world - throughout the Middle East non-Muslim religions are more often than not severely restricted - this is religious persecution of other religions. Secular persecution of religious groups is seldom violent in today's world. The one example I can think of is the Chinese government's activity towards various religious groups within China. I most parts of the world secular groups are more interested in limiting the voice and actions of religions. 2
filovirus Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 Our ward building was tagged a few months ago. It read, and I quote, "Learn from the Jews for God's sake". Does that count as persecution? If so, it was a topic of conversation for all of 30 seconds. I guess our level of persecution in Salem, Oregon is rather low to almost nonexistent.Now that I think about it, a parent of a kid on my son's soccer team insinuated once that we weren't Christian. My wife and I are still good friends with her.Maybe the church as a whole gets persecuted a little more, but as a single member, I personally don't see any against me.
Saint Sinner Posted August 2, 2015 Author Posted August 2, 2015 A joke would be the overturning of Section 3 of DOMA as an act of aggression against religion. I've read the statements of Maggie Gallagher and others and find them lacking exponentially.
Saint Sinner Posted August 2, 2015 Author Posted August 2, 2015 Persecution is in the mind of the beholder and does not necessarily exist in reality. Conscious objectivity is mandatory.
Bob Crockett Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) I'm not neutral, but I was deeply involved in the Proposition 8 fight in California. I both led our ward's effort, participated in an 30-stake level coordinating group, discussed it with the Church at the general level, and published in the area. I also opposed Proposition 8 on political grounds until asked to change my views, which I did. I was shocked at the persecution against the Saints and supporters of Proposition 8. The violence, the efforts to get people fired from their jobs (including me) and the general nastiness was terrible. One of my friends did nothing more that put a sign in his yard, and for that he repeatedly had his tires slashed and sign stolen. My law firm was told that it could not recruit at major public universities. (Not by the universities, but by student groups.) I also learned a lot more doing the research for my published article. There were scattered reference in published articles statng that the harassment of church-going supporters of Prop 8 was much more virulent that the harassment of anti-Prop 8 groups. I cited a major poll which showed that the Prop 8 fight was influenced vastly more by black churches than by the Latter-day Saints, but the black churches suffered nothing. I also saw persecution come from former Latter-day Saints. They took public information about contributions to Prop 8 and then circulated emails and blog posts asking readers to identify those contributors who were Latter-day Saint and identify their church positions. Then, once that information was assembled, a website maintained by a noted Cedar City lawyer (who has since returned to the Church but who continues to be a major Sunstoner) posted sensitive church data about contributors for no reason other than to invite humiliation. My efforts to decouple my church calling from that website was met with mild mockery: "Are you ashamed of your Church position?" I didn't see it as a martyr complex. I saw it as slashed tires, lost jobs, anonymous death threats and more. I didn't see anything like that delivered to Prop 8 opponents. Edited August 2, 2015 by Bob Crockett 3
carbon dioxide Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 Real persecution is more than people disagreeing with your position on an issue(s) or who you are or represent. It usually leads to results in destruction of property, reputation, economic loss, ect. What Bob Crockett describes above is real persecution against those individuals by individuals or groups but I don't believe the Church as a whole can claim persecution on the gay marriage issue. When I read about the persecution the Church suffered in the 19th century in Missouri and other places, nothing like that has occurred over the gay marriage issue. Out of respect of what those early saints suffered, I think we should be careful to associate our troubles and calling it "persecution" as the early saints suffered far more than we have had to deal with.
JLHPROF Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 I have seen real persecution and the claims of persecution in the United States is somewhat of a joke to me.Persecution is in the mind of the beholder and does not necessarily exist in reality. Conscious objectivity is mandatory. Wel, now that's just not true.Ask the early Christians being fed to the lions, or the early Mormons being chased from state to state (which did happen in the United States).It is true that these early experiences have created a culture of feeling persecuted, as have other groups experiences cause them to feel persecution long after it has basically ceased. But to say persecution doesn't exist in reality is just not true.
Saint Sinner Posted August 2, 2015 Author Posted August 2, 2015 Apologies. That was worded poorly. I watched a 15 year old boy, suspected of being a homosexual, castrated in public. I watched Sufi women burned alive because of their beliefs. Real persecution exists. But we must be careful about what we call persecution. 2
Calm Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 The term "harassment" would be better used in most cases in the US, I think. It covers lesser forms of persecution while not having the connotation of life threatening that the term "persecution" often carries for many. 3
Stone holm Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 The difference between persecution and disagreement I with regards to political or ideological debates is when the arguments turn from rational discussion of the issue to attacks on the individual or groups without reference to the arguments being made. It is a very useful thing in religious or political controversies as it allows you to brand a person or a group and then not have to engage in the laborious task of actually countering the argument. Dogma whether political or religious serves the same purpose, however, religious dogma is the ultimate trump card because there is an end to reasoning once someone declares " because God said so." 1
The Nehor Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 Persecution is in the mind of the beholder and does not necessarily exist in reality. Conscious objectivity is mandatory.I am guessing rational thought is not mandatory.
california boy Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 The difference between persecution and disagreement I with regards to political or ideological debates is when the arguments turn from rational discussion of the issue to attacks on the individual or groups without reference to the arguments being made. It is a very useful thing in religious or political controversies as it allows you to brand a person or a group and then not have to engage in the laborious task of actually countering the argument. Dogma whether political or religious serves the same purpose, however, religious dogma is the ultimate trump card because there is an end to reasoning once someone declares " because God said so."Excellent post.
Saint Sinner Posted August 3, 2015 Author Posted August 3, 2015 I am guessing rational thought is not mandatory.See post #11. I corrected myself.
Stone holm Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 Excellent post. We are seeing a unique form of self-inflicted branding right now which illustrates the point. Bernie Sanders has always branded himself as a Democratic Socialist. In actuality, his arguments are basically left-wing populist contentions. However, since he branded himself as a Democratic Socialist, he is being dismissed by Main Stream Media, Main Stream Democrats, and Republicans by just using the word "Socialist" and thereby they can avoid engaging on the issues which he is raising which regardless of whether you agree with him are actually the relevant issues. Instead people are talking about cake decorations, flags, and whether police should wear body cameras.
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