filovirus Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Help me understand repentance in Spirit Prison a little better.Say Mr. John Nonmember dies and goes to Spirit Prison because he never heard the Gospel in his lifetime on earth. While in Spirit Prison, some missionaries from Paradise teach him the Gospel and he accepts it. Now, does he need to repent of all the sins he did on earth, and if so, will his repentance process be harder because he no longer has a body? Does grace have any bearing on the difficulty of repentance in Spirit Prison?
Storm Rider Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Difficult topic. I believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is all-encompassing and also applies to those individuals who may have never heard of the Savior or his gospel. Even though we tend to think of repentance as a mortal action prior to death, we know that every individual that has ever been born on the earth will have the opportunity to hear the full message of the gospel of Christ and receive all saving ordinances. Their repentance is a turning to Christ and seeking his forgiveness and mercy. It is true that those in the paradise or spirit prison are only spirits and without their mortal bodies. It has been speculated that their spirits still have the same hungers and passions, whether just in memory or something else, as they did as mortals. This separation may cause challenges to learning lessons that would have been more easily done while still in possession of their physical bodies. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. I believe that the Atonement will be as complete for them as it will be for me.
Duncan Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 of course they can repent, 138:58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, Question is, will they repent? who knows! 2
Guest Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Help me understand repentance in Spirit Prison a little better.Say Mr. John Nonmember dies and goes to Spirit Prison because he never heard the Gospel in his lifetime on earth. While in Spirit Prison, some missionaries from Paradise teach him the Gospel and he accepts it. Now, does he need to repent of all the sins he did on earth, and if so, will his repentance process be harder because he no longer has a body? Does grace have any bearing on the difficulty of repentance in Spirit Prison?First of all "Spirit Prison" is not for those who never had a chance to hear the gospel, but for the truly wicked who rebeled against the "Light of Christ" which all men and women have, to know right from wrong, and chose wrong by which to live their lives. So repentance there will be difficult, because the same spirit that inhabited them in this life does so there...yet not impossible as proper teaching brings with it Grace. Paradise, is for the righteous of all faith, who followed the Spirit of truth the filled them throughout the earthly lives. If there is no salvation of the dead, there is no salvation for any of us. Because God our Father and Jesus Christ there is mercy for all who deserve it and seek after it. God is more eager to save that to condemn, this is why we love him, because "He first loved us". He will provide in this life and the next life so many opportunities to repent, that he might save us from ourselves. We just need to get out of the way and let our God do. What he came for. I have much faith in his works that he will be able (despite U.S.) to save us!
HappyJackWagon Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Thankfully we will all have the opportunity to continue repenting after our deaths because we will all have the need. 1
CV75 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Help me understand repentance in Spirit Prison a little better.Say Mr. John Nonmember dies and goes to Spirit Prison because he never heard the Gospel in his lifetime on earth. While in Spirit Prison, some missionaries from Paradise teach him the Gospel and he accepts it. Now, does he need to repent of all the sins he did on earth, and if so, will his repentance process be harder because he no longer has a body? Does grace have any bearing on the difficulty of repentance in Spirit Prison?Grace, just as the Atonement, is the great "equalizer." So yes, he needs to take all the steps he can take in his condition to repent, and the Lord's grace will cover the rest.
filovirus Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 First of all "Spirit Prison" is not for those who never had a chance to hear the gospel, but for the truly wicked who rebeled against the "Light of Christ" which all men and women have, to know right from wrong, and chose wrong by which to live their lives. So repentance there will be difficult, because the same spirit that inhabited them in this life does so there...yet not impossible as proper teaching brings with it Grace."The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18-20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise." (Gospel Principles, Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World) My overarching question is why do we put so much effort into missionary work while on earth when it can all be done in the Spirit World? I know the usual answers of "growing the kingdom of God on earth" and so forth that we are taught to say during these lessons in church. Is it easier to repent in this world than in the spirit world? Is that the reason we want everyone to have an opportunity while in mortality? What exactly is the benefit of having the gospel now if we would have accepted it in the spirit world? Is this where the scripture comes into play: "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (D&C 130:18-19)
Calm Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I wish they called it Spirit School rather than Spirit Prison.In the past people could be and often were thrown in prison for not being able to pay a debt, but these days prison is understood as more for those who have actively commited a criminal act. 1
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Help me understand repentance in Spirit Prison a little better.Say Mr. John Nonmember dies and goes to Spirit Prison because he never heard the Gospel in his lifetime on earth. While in Spirit Prison, some missionaries from Paradise teach him the Gospel and he accepts it. Now, does he need to repent of all the sins he did on earth, and if so, will his repentance process be harder because he no longer has a body? Does grace have any bearing on the difficulty of repentance in Spirit Prison? He needs to repent of his sins. I don't know if this means enumerating each one but instead the flaws that caused him to do this but as hell is remembering it all maybe. I have no idea if repentance is harder. Grace probably has the same influence there. It makes repentance possible.
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 First of all "Spirit Prison" is not for those who never had a chance to hear the gospel, but for the truly wicked who rebeled against the "Light of Christ" which all men and women have, to know right from wrong, and chose wrong by which to live their lives. This is an unscriptural notion. My understanding is that those are the same place or state though I imagine those who sin against the light are worse off. It is not pleasant for anyone there.
Bobbieaware Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) of course they can repent, 138:58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,Question is, will they repent? who knows!The only ones who won't come unto Christ, repent of their sins, receive forgiveness through the atonement and inherit a mansion in the heavenly realms of glory are the sons of perdition, D&C 76 makes this very clear. 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— 35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. 36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. 39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. 40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—(D&C 76) Edited July 31, 2015 by Bobbieaware
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 My overarching question is why do we put so much effort into missionary work while on earth when it can all be done in the Spirit World? I know the usual answers of "growing the kingdom of God on earth" and so forth that we are taught to say during these lessons in church. Is it easier to repent in this world than in the spirit world? Is that the reason we want everyone to have an opportunity while in mortality? What exactly is the benefit of having the gospel now if we would have accepted it in the spirit world? We do it because we should. Why should we be lazy and dump it all on dead people? That would be like the afternoon shift deciding not to work and just hoping the evening shift will take care of it all. They might but if the boss finds out you might get fired.
The Nehor Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I wish they called it Spirit School rather than Spirit Prison.In the past people could be and often were thrown in prison for not being able to pay a debt, but these days prison is understood as more for those who have actively commited a criminal act. It's called prison because it is not a pleasant place to be. Then again this world isn't either so who knows if the dead can tell the difference? 1
carbon dioxide Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise." (Gospel Principles, Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World) What about those spirits who reject the gospel and the ordinances? That is a matter that we sometimes do not consider. Just as there is a reward for accepting the gospel, there has to be a punishment for those who reject.
Bobbieaware Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 What about those spirits who reject the gospel and the ordinances? That is a matter that we sometimes do not consider. Just as there is a reward for accepting the gospel, there has to be a punishment for those who reject.Read my post above.
carbon dioxide Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) It is often said that we go to two places when we die which is paradise and prison. For the purposes of most discussions, that my be fine but is really not accurate. Should we assume that those who die without the gospel but lived good honorable lives will dwell among the most wicked and apostates who failed to repent? In the book "Life Everlasting" by Duane Crowther, he spends a lot of time from the scriptures and teachings of modern day prophets that the wicked are shut off from the spirits in prison in what we can call "hell". Those in prison do not go to the wicked in "hell" and the righteous in paradise do not go to the "wicked" in hell. The righteous only preach the gospel to the spirits in prison. Those that are in prison if they accept the gospel go to paradise and those that reject it are cast out of prison to "hell". Prison seems to be a neutral zone where most go until they have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel and temple ordinances. Edited July 31, 2015 by carbon dioxide
Calm Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 It's called prison because it is not a pleasant place to be. Then again this world isn't either so who knows if the dead can tell the difference?I didn't find junior high or high school particularly pleasant and certainly felt trapped and restricted while I was experiencing it. 1
Calm Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom. Rather than a separation of place, it appears those who refuse to repent are experiencing an internal state different then their fellow prison mates who are willing to learn and accept the gospel. To me it sounds more like an extension of earth life where the good are mixed with the bad than a prison system where you have a section for minimum security up to isolation for the most dangerous criminals. However, I think most of this is an analogy so won't be surprised if it isn't as simple as it appears in the scriptures.
Guest Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 This is an unscriptural notion. My understanding is that those are the same place or state though I imagine those who sin against the light are worse off. It is not pleasant for anyone there.According to D&C, various sections refer to "Righteous men deceived by Satan". Those who died without the Gispel, inheriting Celestual kingdom, if in their hearts they would have received it. That is is all prison as we are there without our bodies, be it "outer darkness" or "Paridise". Then all of 1 Corintians 15, with other comments throughout the Bible. Just trying to touch on them all for the sake of the language in the OP, without writing a book on the topic.
Duncan Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) The only ones who won't come unto Christ, repent of their sins, receive forgiveness through the atonement and inherit a mansion in the heavenly realms of glory are the sons of perdition, D&C 76 makes this very clear.32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—(D&C 76) i don't know about that though. Those of the terrestrial kingdom weren't "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" I think that's why there are three degrees of glory and God won't force anyone to repent of anything, it isn't an absolute thing as we all have our agency. We are all saved on the same principles. I was talking to a guy the other day, atheist but not annoying about it but his wife and kids are all members and very active, he attends church on some occasions. I don't know why he is an atheist but he's a great guy. If he doesn't accept the gospel here, he'll have the chance on the other side but I don't know if he'll accept it or not but his good works won't save him or me. I hope he repents but if not then that's between him and God Edited August 1, 2015 by Duncan
Mars Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 we're supposed to repent for the same reason that the slothful servant was supposed to do something with his talent. alma 34 says that the person who knows they should repent, but doesn't because they don't want to, won't suddenly want to later on, either. our Gospel is one of progression. the earlier you get on it, the better.
Mars Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 but yes, i think repentance happens after death. no one dies perfect. calling and election made sure threads included.
PeterPear Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 138:32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. Those who rejected the prophets have a chance to repent in the Spirit World.
Mormonmaniac Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 Spirit prison is "hell" and the gospel is taught to all in hell so that they can repent and turn to Christ.
Bobbieaware Posted August 1, 2015 Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Rather than a separation of place, it appears those who refuse to repent are experiencing an internal state different then their fellow prison mates who are willing to learn and accept the gospel. To me it sounds more like an extension of earth life where the good are mixed with the bad than a prison system where you have a section for minimum security up to isolation for the most dangerous criminals.However, I think most of this is an analogy so won't be surprised if it isn't as simple as it appears in the scriptures.Better than any extra-scriptural commentaries on this important subject, the scriptures themselves present the doctrines on the salvation of the dead in their purest and most clarifying light. Joseph F. Smith's vision of the salvation of the dead makes it clear the wicked who rejected or rebelled against the Gospel, while dwelling in the flesh on earth, are not in some special category when it comes to the opportunity hear and embrace the liberating Gospel message when compared to the wicked who died without ever hearing the Gospel taught. Through his vision, President Smith came to understand all categories of the deceased wicked have an equal chance to be freed from the spiritual bondage of sin by accepting the Gospel of Christ as taught by the Lord's chosen spirit world messengers...30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. 31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. 32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, HAVING REJECTED THE PROPHETS. Continuing, 36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; 37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto ALL the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, BECAUSE OF THEIR REBELLION and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. Edited August 1, 2015 by Bobbieaware 1
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