Repentance In Spirit Prison

[carbon dioxide]

I enjoyed reading Orson Pratt"s words. But there's only one problem, his ideas are out of harmony with the 138th section of the D&C, and canonized scripture trumps something that's not a part of the standard works, Before D&C 138 was made part of the standard works in 1981, I was quite familiar with it and remember thinking that if the vision was ever made part of the LDS canon it would be a doctrinal deal breaker. D&C 138 clearly states that ALL the wicked who rejected or rebelled against the Gospel, even including the desperately wicked who were ripened in iniquity and rejected the Gospel message in the days Noah, are in the spirit prison -- not Orson Pratts outer darkness -- and they will be taught or retaugh (yes, retaugh) the gospel and its ordinances, and through this means have access to repentance, a remission of their sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost and a salvation in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions of glory. It would be interesting if you would carefully reread D&C 138 and then let me know if you can find a way to harmonize Orson Pratt's statement with President Smith's canonized revelation.

1. I would agree that the standard works trumps things that are not.

2. I would agree with D&C 138 but I believe one should combine all the teachings of the standard works to make sense of it all.

3.  I would not agree that D&C 138 says ALL the wicked are represented in prison and they will all be retaught the gospel.  For example there is no reason to waste time reteaching sons of perdition. I don't believe it applies to apostates of the Church.  For those who are outside the church and are taught the gospel and reject it, they may be taught it again in the Spirit World to receive a Terrestrial inheritance but for members of the Church who leave after receiving a testimony, they are done if they don't repent before death.  They are separated from the other spirits.  Orson Pratt calls it outer darkness.  Perhaps it can be considered a different place in prison separated by a veil.  I believe God is very merciful but he also is a God of justice and consequence.  Death is not a push of the reset button and one starts over again as if nothing they did in the flesh matter.  

[Bobbieaware]

1. I would agree that the standard works trumps things that are not.

2. I would agree with D&C 138 but I believe one should combine all the teachings of the standard works to make sense of it all.

3. I would not agree that D&C 138 says ALL the wicked are represented in prison and they will all be retaught the gospel. For example there is no reason to waste time reteaching sons of perdition. I don't believe it applies to apostates of the Church. For those who are outside the church and are taught the gospel and reject it, they may be taught it again in the Spirit World to receive a Terrestrial inheritance but for members of the Church who leave after receiving a testimony, they are done if they don't repent before death. They are separated from the other spirits. Orson Pratt calls it outer darkness. Perhaps it can be considered a different place in prison separated by a veil. I believe God is very merciful but he also is a God of justice and consequence. Death is not a push of the reset button and one starts over again as if nothing they did in the flesh matter.

I suppose I should have said the sons of perdition are excluded, but I guess I thought it went without saying. As for the others you mentioned, all I can say is if you very carefully reread section 138, and, if you're able to do so, temporarily put aside any preconceived notions you have, you'll plainly see President Smith says says the Gospel is preached to all the dead. And I put the word all in capital letters because that's the word President Smith actually uses -- and he uses it more than once. He makes it very clear the Gospel is not only preached to those who rejected the true Gospel after hearing it preached by the prophets -- like the wicked of Noah's day who rejected the preaching of the prophets -- but he goes on to say even those who rebel against the Gospel will be taught it as well.

As I said in a previous post on this thread, because they haven't studied D&C 138 carefully enough, many members of the Church are unaware that D&C 138 is a absolute game-changer when it comes to the plan of salvation, because with plain language it unambiguously breaks new ground in understanding how the dead may obtain salvation. I'm supremely confident I'm right on this because I'm only repeating what President Smith himself says in the revelation -- and oh how I love that revelation. It answers this important question: Why would God want to hold somebody back, including the very wicked who have not committed the unpardonable sin, if they really want to repent of their sins and change for the better?

Edited August 16, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[carbon dioxide]

I suppose I should have said the sons of perdition are excluded, but I guess I thought it went without saying. As for the others you mentioned, all I can say is if you very carefully reread section 138, and, if you're able to do so, temporarily put aside any preconceived notions you have, you'll plainly see President Smith says says the Gospel is preached to all the dead. And I put the word all in capital letters because that's the word President Smith actually uses -- and he uses it more than once. He makes it very clear the Gospel is not only preached to those who rejected the true Gospel after hearing it preached by the prophets -- like the wicked of Noah's day who rejected the preaching of the prophets -- but he goes on to say even those who rebel against the Gospel will be taught it as well.

As I said in a previous post on this thread, because they haven't studied D&C 138 carefully enough, many members of the Church are unaware that D&C 138 is a absolute game-changer when it comes to the plan of salvation, because with plain language it unambiguously breaks new ground in understanding how the dead may obtain salvation. I'm supremely confident I'm right on this because I'm only repeating what President Smith himself says in the revelation -- and oh how I love that revelation. It answers this important question: Why would God want to hold somebody back, including the very wicked who have not committed the unpardonable sin, if they really want to repent of their sins and change for the better?

I did read the section and I don't see everything what you see there.  But if you see it that is wonderful.  I just see preaching of the gospel to apostates for example to be a complete waste of time in the spirit world.  They had their chance and blew it.  I also believe that D&C 76 should also have some application as well.  If a person is taught the gospel in in the flesh and reject it, they will have it taught again in the Spirit world BUT even if they accept it, God will still hold them back.  The best they can inherit is a Terrestrial glory.  There has to be a severe penalty for not accepting the gospel in the flesh when it was presented.  If that is not the case than really it is no big deal in the long run to even bother preaching the gospel in the flesh since in the end, none if it really matters on the individual level.  There is no reason for a wicked person to repent in the flesh as they can just repent in the spirit world and all is good.  

Edited August 16, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Bobbieaware]

I did read the section and I don't see everything what you see there.  But if you see it that is wonderful.  I just see preaching of the gospel to apostates for example to be a complete waste of time in the spirit world.  They had their chance and blew it.  I also believe that D&C 76 should also have some application as well.  If a person is taught the gospel in in the flesh and reject it, they will have it taught again in the Spirit world BUT even if they accept it, God will still hold them back.  The best they can inherit is a Terrestrial glory.  There has to be a severe penalty for not accepting the gospel in the flesh when it was presented.  If that is not the case than really it is no big deal in the long run to even bother preaching the gospel in the flesh since in the end, none if it really matters on the individual level.  There is no reason for a wicked person to repent in the flesh as they can just repent in the spirit world and all is good.

Why would a hardened apostate who returns to full fellowship in the Church as senior citizen, after many years of being a bitter enemy, not be held back by the Lord, but an apostate who dies in his earlier years. without having the same number of years to repent as the first man, would be held back?

[Ahab]

I did read the section and I don't see everything what you see there. But if you see it that is wonderful. I just see preaching of the gospel to apostates for example to be a complete waste of time in the spirit world. They had their chance and blew it. I also believe that D&C 76 should also have some application as well. If a person is taught the gospel in in the flesh and reject it, they will have it taught again in the Spirit world BUT even if they accept it, God will still hold them back. The best they can inherit is a Terrestrial glory. There has to be a severe penalty for not accepting the gospel in the flesh when it was presented. If that is not the case than really it is no big deal in the long run to even bother preaching the gospel in the flesh since in the end, none if it really matters on the individual level. There is no reason for a wicked person to repent in the flesh as they can just repent in the spirit world and all is good.

An apostate is someone who has fallen away from or stopped living by gospel principles, and sometimes people do that without realizing it or how they can start living by them. So no it isn't always a waste of time to teach them. For some it may be, but for others it isn't. They just need to learn how to get enough faith to be sure of what they need to repent from and why it would be a good thing to do.

[Tacenda]

These are perfectly valid points of which I'm very well aware. But here is the essence of my argument: The 138th section of the D&C was inspired by a simple but profound declaration made by the apostle Peter. He said that the Gospel is preached to the spirits of the dead -- including the spirits of those who rejected the preaching of the Gospel in the days of Noah -- that they might be judged as if they are still living in the flesh based on how faithfully they live according to the principles of the Gospel in the spirit world. But If janderich is correct, and there's almost nothing that can be accomplished as spirits in the post-mortal spirit world, how in the world can the spirits of the dead be judged as if they are still living in the flesh if there is almost nothing meaningful that can be accomplished by the spirits of the dead when compared to what can be accomplished by men who are living in the flesh? Why would Peter say the spirits of the dead can live the Gospel in the spirit world so that they can be judged as if they are still living in the flesh if there is such a huge disparity between what can be accomplished in the fleshly and spiritual realms? It doesn't make sense that Peter would say what he said if janderich is correct.

In addition, is it not true that there must have been enough to challenge the spirits in the ore-earth spirit existence for those spirits to be able to prove themselves (think the war in heaven) and also to show themselves worthy of being numbered among the noble and great spirits who were foreordained to become the leaders of God's kingdom on earth? If almost nothing of value can be accomplished by unembodied spirits, how on earth did the noble and great ones prove themselves worthy as spirits? In fact, the very words 'noble' and 'great' presuppose there were great challenges to overcome in the spirit world in order for those spirits to be rightly Identified as being noble and great. How does one explain the following excerpt from D&C 138 if spirits are not able to perform great acts of faith against adversity?

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other CHOICE spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,

54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.

55 I observed that they were also among the NOBLE and GREAT ones who were CHOSEN in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were PREPARED to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. (D&C 138)

Bottom line? Peter would not have taught that the dead can live meaningful Gospel-oriented lives in the spirit world, lives that enable them to be judged as if they are still living in the flesh, if it was not so.

This sounds correct, also gives many much hope. I'm wondering if going from weakness in the flesh to spiritual change is much slower than we think. If when crossing over there will not be immediate changes or repercussions, like those that struggle and don't have the light of Christ yet, can be taught by the spirits in heaven. I thought that was what the church taught. Especially when they say that when a missionary dies while serving a mission, they'll continue teaching on the other side.

[Bobbieaware]

This sounds correct, also gives many much hope. I'm wondering if going from weakness in the flesh to spiritual change is much slower than we think. If when crossing over there will not be immediate changes or repercussions, like those that struggle and don't have the light of Christ yet, can be taught by the spirits in heaven. I thought that was what the church taught. Especially when they say that when a missionary dies while serving a mission, they'll continue teaching on the other side.

Hello again: I recently let it be known I'm reducing my participation on the board because I believe there are more important things the Lord wants me attend to at this time. But because I was a major player on this thread, I'm going to respond to your thoughtful post.

If entry into the post-mortal spirit world places the dead in a state where very little can be accomplished by way of spiritual growth, as compared to existence while in the flesh, it would seem ludicrous -- and even cruel -- to teach the Gospel to the spirits who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel in the flesh. I say it would be cruel because why bother to teach the spirits of the dead about the glories of life of the celestial kingdom, and the laws that must be complied with in order to obtain an inheritance there, if departed spirits are unable to prove themselves worthy of exaltation.

But here are some things to think about. Building on the "surprises" (I.e. breaks with traditional Catholic and Protestant teaching) pertaining to the plan of salvation found in D&C sections 19, 76, 88 and 138, and based on the fact that Joseph Smith said there was much additional doctrine he could have revealed but was commanded of God to hold back in D&C 76, it's likely the day will come when it will be revealed that God is more merciful than we now realize. After all, why would God want to hold back spirits from accelerated spiritual growth if that's what they most sincerely desire? And if the atonement is all about an infinite and eternal sacrifice that allows us to leave our past behind (think Alma the younger), why would God condemn the dead to an existence where leaving the past behind isn't really possible!

More things to consider: Why are we taught that the Lord and angels from the celestial kingdom descend into the terrestrial kingdom to minister to the resurrected men and women who dwell there? Within the context of the Gospel, ministering is all about teaching others the truths of God so that the recipients of the teaching can learn how to grow in the grace and knowledge of God. If, as is usually taught, the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom are "stuck" forever where the are, why do exalted beings bother to descend into the terrestrial kingdom to teach (teaching necessarily involves imparting new information to students) the inhabitants things they do not yet know about how they might draw closer to God? The same could be said of the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom who are taught by ministers from the terrestrial kingdom.

Whatever the truth of these things may turn out to be, there is one thing I already know for certain, and it's that the God of the Latter-day Saints is perfectly just, perfectly merciful, and perfectly loving, and for these reasons I know he will not hold anyone back if they sincerely want to change for the better. But in addition to not wanting to hold anyone back, he will also help them toward their righteous goals in any way he can. This is what the atonement is all about: "Though your sins be as red as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow."

[carbon dioxide]

Whatever the truth of these things may turn out to be, there is one thing I already know for certain, and it's that the God of the Latter-day Saints is perfectly just, perfectly merciful, and perfectly loving, and for these reasons I know he will not hold anyone back if they sincerely want to change for the better. But in addition to not wanting to hold anyone back, he will also help them toward their righteous goals in any way he can. This is what the atonement is all about: "Though your sins be as red as scarlet, they shall be made as white as snow."

There is no indication that once one has been assigned a kingdom that they can jump to a higher one.  There may be advancement within the kingdom they are assigned.  In that sense there may be progression.  Those who want to change for the better my receive a reward if they make changes but there is a limit to where they can go.  Even those in the lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom can't move to the highest level even if they desire it.

[Bobbieaware]

There is no indication that once one has been assigned a kingdom that they can jump to a higher one.  There may be advancement within the kingdom they are assigned.  In that sense there may be progression.  Those who want to change for the better my receive a reward if they make changes but there is a limit to where they can go.  Even those in the lower levels of the Celestial Kingdom can't move to the highest level even if they desire it.

My ruminations are mere speculations based upon the fact that, according to the Prohet Joseph Smith himself, D&C 76 is an incomplete revelation and for that reason there may be many surprises yet to come pertaining to the plan of salvation. In D&C 19, the Savior lets us in on a big secret: He says in the past he used the expressions "endless punishment" and "eternal punishment" not because endless and eternal punishment will necessarily last forever, but he tells us deliberately used those expressions to put a solemn godly fear into the hearts of the children of men. So taking my cue from D&C 19, I SPECULATE (they call it speculative theology) that there may many similar surprises waiting in the wings. But my NON-SPECULTIVE stance on the plan of salvation is in full harmony with the present doctrine of the Church. Even so, my point is simply this: given what surprising things the Lord has already done and said, I won't be surprised if it turns out there are more stunning surprises yet to be revealed... I'm out of this site for the night.

[Ahab]

It may help to consider that the kingdoms we talk about are kingdoms of glory, with the exception of the kingdom consisting of the sons and daughters of Perdition, and that the glory we're talking about is the glory of God which is also referred to as intelligence, or light and truth. And we're talking about the light and truth, or intelligence, that people are willing to receive at a particular moment in time, which is the time when they/we will be judged by God and assigned/designated to a specific kingdom based on their/our then level of intelligence.

We can't make somebody more intelligent than they are if they refuse to accept intelligence/light and truth. It can't be forced upon them. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink it. Maybe with more and more time they'll catch on to the idea of what is a more intelligent idea than they currently accept, or will have accepted on that day of judgment, but if not they will still have at least some level of intelligence greater than those of Perdition so they'll get to be with others who are as bright as they are.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Ahab

[Broker]

Ahab wrote:

"And the days of our probation, and of our mortality, include our time in the so-called spirit world. Our flesh doesn't become immortal until we are resurrected in it."

 

I agree with that statement. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this subject and I've come to the same conclusion as Ahab. It has to be that way for the Plan to make any sense.

Statements by Church authorities are not doctrine and when it comes to this subject there's a lot of personal opinion being thrown around.

 

To me it's clear to see why this truth isn't taught more openly in the scriptures. If it were, a  lot of people would sin in this life with the expectation they could just repent in the Spirit World

[The Unclean Deacon]

I think we will spend all of eternity repenting

[JLHPROF]

I think we will spend all of eternity repenting

 

Alma 34

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

[janderich]

For those who believe the spirit world is simply an extension of our mortal probation I have a question. Bobbieaware didn't answer it, nor have I seen it answered on this thread:

 

First, the basic teachings:

1. In the pre-mortal realm we progressed to such an extent that further progression was limited.

2. In order to progress further we needed a mortal tabernacle.   

 

If the above statements are true, how could progression in the spirit world be equal to progression in mortality? 

[Bobbieaware]

For those who believe the spirit world is simply an extension of our mortal probation I have a question. Bobbieaware didn't answer it, nor have I seen it answered on this thread:

First, the basic teachings:

1. In the pre-mortal realm we progressed to such an extent that further progression was limited.

2. In order to progress further we needed a mortal tabernacle.

If the above statements are true, how could progression in the spirit world be equal to progression in mortality?

U

As I said before, the fallen nature consists of our spirits entering into a mortal body and the suffering of spiritual death by those same spirits,

10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the DEATH OF THE BODY, and also the DEATH OF THE SPIRIT.

11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.

12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; WHICH SPIRITUAL DEATH IS HELL; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel. (2Nephi 9)

In the resurrection, both the body and the spirit are delivered from the fall. The fall consisting of the spirit entering a mortal body and the spiritual death of the spirit that enters the mortal body. Read D&C 138 again and see there that even the spirits in paradise considered themselves be in a state of "BONDAGE" and in need of "DELIVERENCE")

I think the reason why you're finding this difficult is probably because you look at those spirits in paradise and assume (at least in part) the reason why the are happy is because they're free of the fallen body. But, in reality, the main reason why they're in a state of happiness is because they have living faith in Jesus Christ who, through the Gospel, has redeemed them from the death of the spirit that comes to all as a consequence of the fall of Adam. The reason why the ignorant and rebellious dead, who have not yet embraced the Gospel and its ordinances, need the Gospel and its ordinances is so that they might be spiritually EMPOWERED to escape from the confines of hell. And who among us can deny that escaping from spiritual death in the confines of hell is a mighty work of faith?

In D&C 138, President Joseph F Smith says the dead in hell are taught the Gospel to help them understand they must exercise FAITH in the redeeming power of the Savior so as to spiritually progress; and when the dead in hell do accept the Gospel and exercise faith in the Savior THEIR FAITH IN CHRIST FREES THEM FROM HELL so that they may enter the paradise of God. Pretty significant accomplishment, I'd say ! So if the dead cannot dramatically change for the better while in the realm of post-mortal spirits, why is it that their faith in Christ can free them from hell and spiritual desth? Is not escaping from hell and liberation from spiritual death through one's faith in Christ what the Gospel is all about ? And is not such a miracle the most dramatic and meaningful change one can make?

I believe it's likely that reason why you're finding it difficult to embrace these principles is because you"re trying to stay true to the Book of Mormon's declaration that "the day of this life" is the time to prepare to meet God, and that's laudable. But you need to understand the prophet Mormon was expressly forbidden of God to reveal many of the deeper doctrines pertaining to the kingdom of God in his abridgment; and that's why Mormon himself said that unsealed portion of the plates contained only the "lesser portion of the word." But the Lord promised Mormon that if enough latter-day Gentiles embraced the Book of Mormon's presentation of that "lesser portion of the word," then, as a reward for their faith, he would eventually reveal to them many of those doctrines Mormon was commanded to exclude.

Thankfully, many of those doctrines excluded from the Book of Mormon are now contained in the D&C, and in the instructions and ordinances we receive in the temple. And one of those doctrines pertaining to the greater teachings of the Gospel is that "the day of this life," spoken of, includes the time spent in the post-mortal spirit world; because as long as proxy work is being performed in the temples, the Lord looks upon the saving Gospel ordinances performed for the dead AS IF they are performed in the flesh (when one is baptized for the dead, according to the law of God, it is the deceased person's flesh being baptized, not the flesh of the proxy). If baptism and all the other Gospel ordinances can only be performed during "the day of this life" (I.e. while clothed in flesh) and if no labor can be performed after death, why bother to teach the Gospel to the dead and do all their temple work for them?

Did you ever stop to think that before D&C 76 was revealed, because of what's contained in the Book of Mormon the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believed in the standard historical Christian doctrine of one heaven and one hell? But when D&C 76 was introduced, those Book of Mormon verses that seem to speak a black and white depiction of the plan of salvation were interpreted in a new and more merciful light? Another way to put it is that if the Book of Mormon"s "day of this life" is speaking stricktly of our time sent in the flesh, why didn't the Church at large reject the prophet Joseph Smith's new doctrine by telling him the Book of Mormon sets a clear and unambiguous precedent against ever allowing for a new doctrine that's wholly at odds with doctrine clearly stated by the Nephite prophets?

Now you are correct in some significant measure because it's quite true that there are some who become sons of perdition while in the flesh, and for them death really is a night of darkness wherein no labor can be performed. There are also those who become so wicked in the flesh that they are close to becoming sons of perdition. For these, their hearts are so hardened in sin that contrition may only come when, as the Lord warned Martin Harris, he "compels them to be humble" by causing them to suffer even as he suffered.

But while the above principles are true, it must also be understood there is a large grey area among those who are not the sons of perdition or almost totally hardened in sin. For these, I conclude their prospects for potential spiritual growth in the post-mortal spirit world are much brighter. For these, I personally feel it''s best we let the Lord be the judge of their prospects for spiritual growth, and for this reason will not allow myself to make make dogmatic judgements and rigidly doctrinaire assertions based on passages found in the "lesser portion of the word," but interpreted in isolation from the teachings we have in greater portion of the word we now have in the Doctrine and Covenants and our temples.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Ahab]

I think we will spend all of eternity repenting

Or at least until we don't do anything wrong anymore, and for most of us it will take a very long time to reach that point.

[janderich]

U

As I said before, the fallen nature consists of our spirits entering into a mortal body and the suffering of spiritual death by those same spirits,

10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the DEATH OF THE BODY, and also the DEATH OF THE SPIRIT.

11 And because of the way of deliverance of our God, the Holy One of Israel, this death, of which I have spoken, which is the temporal, shall deliver up its dead; which death is the grave.

12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; WHICH SPIRITUAL DEATH IS HELL; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel. (2Nephi 9)

In the resurrection, both the body and the spirit are delivered from the fall. The fall consisting of the spirit entering a mortal body and the spiritual death of the spirit that enters the mortal body. Read D&C 138 again and see there that even the spirits in paradise considered themselves be in a state of "BONDAGE" and in need of "DELIVERENCE")

....

I have read through your post a couple of times and I still do not see my question answered. Maybe you could start by briefly answering these two questions:

 

1. Do you agree the the fall represented a step forward in progression?

2. If so, how is it a step forward? 

[Bobbieaware]

I have read through your post a couple of times and I still do not see my question answered. Maybe you could start by briefly answering these two questions:

1. Do you agree the the fall represented a step forward in progression?

2. If so, how is it a step forward?

The fall is a step forward for some, but not for those who become the sons of perdition. Though they will gain immortal resurrected bodied, the sons of perdition are never redeemed from the death of the the spirit, and the death of the spirit is one of the twofold effects of the fall.The sons of perdition prove it is not enough to be redeemed from the death of the mortal body in the resurrection, but they must also be redeemed from spiritual death. And the spiritual death component of the fallen nature follows us into the post-mortal spirit world unless we have been liberated from spiritual death through the Gospel of Christ. The only way those who die without having received the Gospel can overcome spiritual death in the in the spirit world is through the Gospel, which is why the Gospel is preached the unredeemed dead in the spirit world. There is only one way men can be saved from spiritual death, either in the flesh or in the spirit world, and that is through the principles and ordinances of the Gospel, which is why the Gospel is preached to the dead.

I perceive your main issue is that, for reasons that are beyond me, you don't want to accept the fact that the fallen nature (the death of the spirit) follows the unredeemed dead into the post-mortal spirit world... but it does! Which is why the only way the dead can be redeemed (the need for redemption presupposes a fallen nature) is through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

If you believe there is no way you will ever be persuaded to believe the fallen nature (the death of the body and the death of the spirit) follows the unredeemed into the spirit world, then we may as well just agree to disagree and move on.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[janderich]

The fall is a step forward for some, but not for those who become the sons of perdition. Though they will gain immortal resurrected bodied, the sons of perdition are never redeemed from the death of the the spirit, and the death of the spirit is one of the twofold effects of the fall.The sons of perdition prove it is not enough to be redeemed from the death of the mortal body in the resurrection, but they must also be redeemed from spiritual death. And the spiritual death component of the fallen nature follows us into the post-mortal spirit world unless we have been liberated from spiritual death through the Gospel of Christ. The only way those who die without having received the Gospel can overcome spiritual death in the in the spirit world is through the Gospel, which is why the Gospel is preached the unredeemed dead in the spirit world. There is only one way men can be saved from spiritual death, either in the flesh or in the spirit world, and that is through the principles and ordinances of the Gospel, which is why the Gospel is preached to the dead.

I perceive your main issue is that, for reasons that are beyond me, you don't want to accept the fact that the fallen nature (the death of the spirit) follows the unredeemed dead into the post-mortal spirit world... but it does! Which is why the only way the dead can be redeemed (the need for redemption presupposes a fallen nature) is through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

If you believe there is no way you will ever be persuaded to believe the fallen nature (the death of the body and the death of the spirit) follows the unredeemed into the spirit world, then we may as well just agree to disagree and move on.

If the fall, and a body, is a step forward for all but the sons of perdition, how can losing our body not be a step back? As you said, even the righteous will view the time away from their body as a prison. So, clearly the conditions in the spirit world are not the same as they are here. And while time in the spirit world may be thought of as a probation, we are not in the same "cut off" state as we are in mortality. Therefore the two are not equal, and this life becomes the time for men to prepare to meet God.

[carbon dioxide]

For those who believe the spirit world is simply an extension of our mortal probation I have a question. Bobbieaware didn't answer it, nor have I seen it answered on this thread:

 

First, the basic teachings:

1. In the pre-mortal realm we progressed to such an extent that further progression was limited.

2. In order to progress further we needed a mortal tabernacle.   

 

If the above statements are true, how could progression in the spirit world be equal to progression in mortality? 

We could progress very far in the premortal world. Christ was able to progress almost to where God the Father was.  But we needed a resurrected body to be perfect.  It is only after Christ was resurrected that he could include himself with the Father in being perfect.  We will continue to progress in the spirit world after death.  Some of our progression my be slower than what we could do in the flesh but we can still will learn things. 

 

The spirit world is still a part of mortal probation as least for most people.  Many spirits still can make choices and if they make good choices and change, they will gain an better inheritance than those that do not.  The gospel will be preached to many but they will also be influenced by evil to make bad choices and reject the gospel.  Just as there are spirits in the spirit world proclaiming the Book of Mormon to be true, there are spirits telling people "The Book of Mormon is a fraud.  Joseph Smith was a con man."  The same overall conditions that exist here exist there as well except one does not have a body.

Edited August 25, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Bobbieaware]

If the fall, and a body, is a step forward for all but the sons of perdition, how can losing our body not be a step back? As you said, even the righteous will view the time away from their body as a prison. So, clearly the conditions in the spirit world are not the same as they are here. And while time in the spirit world may be thought of as a probation, we are not in the same "cut off" state as we are in mortality. Therefore the two are not equal, and this life becomes the time for men to prepare to meet God.

Even the righteous dead are still in a fallen state, in the same way the righteous believers in the flesh on earth are still in a fallen state. The proof of this is found in the fact that even the most righteous must die. Also, there is nothing more mortal than actually being dead. Our spirits fall as well as do our bodies. The devil and his angels fell without taking on a mortal body. Who would dare say the devil is not a fallen being? And all the sons and daughters of God will remain in the fallen state until the resurrection finally delivers them from the fallen state. Jacob tells us even the most righteous in the post-mortal spirit world would eventually become devils if they remained in the spirit world without a resurrection. This means there is a mortal flaw in the spirits of the dead, in the same way there is a mortal flaw in the bodies of the dead.

Here's what you're missing: The reason why we are able to grow spiritually at a dynamic rate while in our fallen mortal bodies is because the fallen nature of that body provides a great oppositional force against which to wage spiritual war. But the same holds true for the spirits of the dead. Although they no longer struggle against the additional oppositional force of the fallen body, the Lord in his infinite wisdom has seen to it that the fallen nature also infects the spirit of man, and for that reason there is a lingering oppositional force that needs to be to overcome in the post-mortal spirit world as well. While the unredeemed dead are in the spirit world there is a lingering spiritual oppositional force, a force formidable enough to make it necessary for the spirits of the unredeemed dead to have to exercise mighty faith in Christ in order to obtain deliverance from sin and gain salvation. And if you don't think striving to overcome sin and the sinful nature in the spirit world isn't a great test of faith for the dead, then we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. But remember, President Joseph F Smith said the dead are taught the principle of faith in Christ unto repentance, and it needs to be understood that faith is a meaningless concept unless there is a difficult oppositional force to overcome.

The bottom line is that while it's true the fallen body adds to the intensity of the oppositional challenges of the fallen state, that doesn't mean all oppositional challenges pertaining to the fallen nature just magically disappear at the moment of death.

P.S. One of the reasons why the dead miss their bodies so much is because of all the enjoyments the body provides. But remember, the dead look forward much more to the resurrection than wishing they could reinhabit their fallen mortal bodies. The following verses say it all:

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 138)

The dead want resurrected bodies, not fallen mortal bodies.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

We could progress very far in the premortal world. Christ was able to progress almost to where God the Father was.  But we needed a resurrected body to be perfect.  It is only after Christ was resurrected that he could include himself with the Father in being perfect.  We will continue to progress in the spirit world after death.  Some of our progression my be slower than what we could do in the flesh but we can still will learn things. 

 

The spirit world is still a part of mortal probation as least for most people.  Many spirits still can make choices and if they make good choices and change, they will gain an better inheritance than those that do not.  The gospel will be preached to many but they will also be influenced by evil to make bad choices and reject the gospel.  Just as there are spirits in the spirit world proclaiming the Book of Mormon to be true, there are spirits telling people "The Book of Mormon is a fraud.  Joseph Smith was a con man."  The same overall conditions that exist here exist there as well except one does not have a body.

That is a great point I failed to make! And you said it so well! the dead have to deal with destructive spiritual influences as well as uplifting ones.

[janderich]

We could progress very far in the premortal world. Christ was able to progress almost to where God the Father was.  But we needed a resurrected body to be perfect.  It is only after Christ was resurrected that he could include himself with the Father in being perfect.  We will continue to progress in the spirit world after death.  Some of our progression my be slower than what we could do in the flesh but we can still will learn things. 

 

The spirit world is still a part of mortal probation as least for most people.  Many spirits still can make choices and if they make good choices and change, they will gain an better inheritance than those that do not.  The gospel will be preached to many but they will also be influenced by evil to make bad choices and reject the gospel.  Just as there are spirits in the spirit world proclaiming the Book of Mormon to be true, there are spirits telling people "The Book of Mormon is a fraud.  Joseph Smith was a con man."  The same overall conditions that exist here exist there as well except one does not have a body.

I agree with you that we will continue to progress in the spirit world but that our progression will be slower. I also agree that choices can be made, though the gains will be less. 

 

You bring up an interesting point about the Savior's progression. Consider this, after the resurrection is there progression? If so, how could we possibly remain in one kingdom for all eternity? 

[janderich]

Even the righteous dead are still in a fallen state, in the same way the righteous believers in the flesh on earth are still in a fallen state. The proof of this is found in the fact that even the most righteous must die. Also, there is nothing more mortal than actually being dead. Our spirits fall as well as do our bodies. The devil and his angels fell without taking on a mortal body. Who would dare say the devil is not a fallen being? And all the sons and daughters of God will remain in the fallen state until the resurrection finally delivers them from the fallen state. Jacob tells us even the most righteous in the post-mortal spirit world would eventually become devils if they remained in the spirit world without a resurrection. This means there is a mortal flaw in the spirits of the dead, in the same way there is a mortal flaw in the bodies of the dead.

Here's what you're missing: The reason why we are able to grow spiritually at a dynamic rate while in our fallen mortal bodies is because the fallen nature of that body provides a great oppositional force against which to wage spiritual war. But the same holds true for the spirits of the dead. Although they no longer struggle against the additional oppositional force of the fallen body, the Lord in his infinite wisdom has seen to it that the fallen nature also infects the spirit of man, and for that reason there is a lingering oppositional force that needs to be to overcome in the post-mortal spirit world as well. While the unredeemed dead are in the spirit world there is a lingering spiritual oppositional force, a force formidable enough to make it necessary for the spirits of the unredeemed dead to have to exercise mighty faith in Christ in order to obtain deliverance from sin and gain salvation. And if you don't think striving to overcome sin and the sinful nature in the spirit world isn't a great test of faith for the dead, then we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on. But remember, President Joseph F Smith said the dead are taught the principle of faith in Christ unto repentance, and it needs to be understood that faith is a meaningless concept unless there is a difficult oppositional force to overcome.

 

The bottom line is that while it's true the fallen body adds to the intensity of the oppositional challenges of the fallen state, that doesn't mean all oppositional challenges pertaining to the fallen nature just magically disappear at the moment of death.

You have largely spoken truth here. But there are just a few issues which may be causing you to misunderstand the spirit world. First, the fall, "As descendants of Adam and Eve, we inherit a fallen condition during mortality" (True to the Faith, p 56, italics added). The fall consists of a spiritual part, us being seperated from God, and a physical part, being housed in a mortal body and dying. You speak much about our spirits falling, but again, the effect of the fall is not that our spirits are damaged in some way, but rather that we are simply cut off. 

 

Now during mortality we reap the second effect of spiritual death, we make choices and those choices follow us beyond this life. In other words, the effect on our spirit of our own choices is what continues with us in the spirit world. However, freed from the body, we take a step back up in understanding, in knowledge of the plan. Freed from the darkness of a mortal body our own knowledge either causes us to rejoice or suffer in anguish because of our sins. In this way, we are either in paradise or prison.  

 

As has been said over and over again, the fall was a step downward but forward, therefore the spirit world is a step upwards but back. Back because we do not have the power of a body, upwards because we gain knowledge we once had. Yes, we must still try to overcome the consequences of sin, but our progress will be much slower as we have discussed. 

 

P.S. One of the reasons why the dead miss their bodies so much is because of all the enjoyments the body provides. But remember, the dead look forward much more to the resurrection than wishing they could reinhabit their fallen mortal bodies. The following verses say it all:

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 138)

The dead want resurrected bodies, not fallen mortal bodies.

I don't disagree with you here. Indeed the dead want resurrected bodies. In whatever condition they find themselves spiritually before the resurrection, they will attain a body of the same degree, "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened" (D&C 88:28). 

[Bobbieaware]

You have largely spoken truth here. But there are just a few issues which may be causing you to misunderstand the spirit world. First, the fall, "As descendants of Adam and Eve, we inherit a fallen condition during mortality" (True to the Faith, p 56, italics added). The fall consists of a spiritual part, us being seperated from God, and a physical part, being housed in a mortal body and dying. You speak much about our spirits falling, but again, the effect of the fall is not that our spirits are damaged in some way, but rather that we are simply cut off.

Now during mortality we reap the second effect of spiritual death, we make choices and those choices follow us beyond this life. In other words, the effect on our spirit of our own choices is what continues with us in the spirit world. However, freed from the body, we take a step back up in understanding, in knowledge of the plan. Freed from the darkness of a mortal body our own knowledge either causes us to rejoice or suffer in anguish because of our sins. In this way, we are either in paradise or prison.

As has been said over and over again, the fall was a step downward but forward, therefore the spirit world is a step upwards but back. Back because we do not have the power of a body, upwards because we gain knowledge we once had. Yes, we must still try to overcome the consequences of sin, but our progress will be much slower as we have discussed.

I don't disagree with you here. Indeed the dead want resurrected bodies. In whatever condition they find themselves spiritually before the resurrection, they will attain a body of the same degree, "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened" (D&C 88:28).

Don't have much time now. But I'll briefly say that you should read 2 Nephi 9. Therein, Jacob makes it clear that the DEATH of the spirit can and does exist in the post-mortal spirit world. So what the spirits of the unredeemed dead are having to deal with is much more than just merely being out of the immediate physical presence of God. They are spiritually dead and require faith in Christ and the Gospel's saving power and ordinances in order to be freed from that spiritual death. Spiritual death is a real formidable foe that must be battled and conquered in order for one to be saved. Those in the spirit world who receive a remission of their sins through baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, are thereby spiritually empowered to do battle with and defeat the very real foe of spiritual death. If you are correct that it's easier for a soul to repent while in a body, then it will require even greater faith to repent while out of the body. This is why the dead need the Gospel at least as much as those in the flesh do.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Bobbieaware