Repentance In Spirit Prison

[Bobbieaware]

Here's where you're making your error -- and because of what's written in the Book of Mormon, which contains "the lesser portion of God's word," it's very understandable you would make this error. You see, in reality, as far as the laws governing God's justice and mercy are concerned, "the day of this life," as spoken by Alma, includes the time we spend after death in the spirit world. The Doctrine and Covenants expands upon the text of the Book of Mormon, letting us know that in the eyes of God the "death of the mortal body" does not take place until there are no longer proxies with bodies on earth who can perform vicarious ordinances in the temple, and this so that the dead might be judged as if they had in very deed submitted themselves to those ordinances while they were yet in the flesh.

This is why though the dead no longer have bodies they are "judged according to men in the flesh," because, in the eyes of God, through the saving efficacy of that proxy temple work, they do accept the Gospel and receive its saving ordinances while "in the flesh." Those who perform temple work for the dead take upon themselves the names of deceased persons, and insofar as the law of God is concerned those deceased persons hear (or rehear) the Gospel message and received its saving ordinances "in the flesh." So long as there are proxies with mortal bodies, and as long as those proxies are performing sacred ordinance work in the temples in behalf of those deceased persons, as far as the demands of God's justice and mercy are concerned, the dead receive the Gospel and its ordinances during "the day of this life," before "the death of the mortal body. This is a great mystery disbelieved by non-LDS Christians, and misunderstood by some Latter-day Saints, but it is verily true.

Deleted.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

I would love to see this verse in the D&C that says, "'death of the mortal body' does not take place until there are no longer proxies with bodies on earth who can perform  vicarious ordinances". Because I have in the past considered what your are saying and do not see it supported.

 

- When Amulek says, "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). I find it very foolish to assume that the term "this life" means this life and the next life. Where is the scripture or talk from a prophet that changes the meaning of that scripture?  

 

-There is a significant difference between this life and the spirit world. In this life we have a mortal body. Through this body we are tested and tried in ways that we will not be in the spirit world. Clearly the two places are not the same and there is a reason Adam fell and a reason we moved downwards but forwards. 

 

- Elder McConkie was very blunt on this point. He said, "Thus the false and heretical doctrine that people who fail to live the law in this life (having had an opportunity so to do) will have a further chance of salvation in the life to come is a soul-destroying doctrine, a doctrine that lulls its adherents into carnal security and thereby denies them a hope of eternal salvation" (Mormon Doctrine p. 687). 

 

Temple work is not here to give second chances to those who wasted their time while on the earth. It is here to allow those who didn't have a fair first chance to receive the blessings of the gospel. Justice and mercy do extend into the next life. Mercy allows people who did not have a full opportunity to receive ordinances and enter into sacred covenants. And justice limits those who have already had an opportunity, not to be unfairly given kingdoms and glory they did not earn while in this life.

Read my post number 48, just above my last response to you; and also very carefully reread D&C 138, and then return and report.

[janderich]

Read my post number 48, just above my last response to you; and also very carefully reread D&C 138, and then return and report.

I've already carefully read them both. In this life we are limited. Even the best of us deal with mortal challenges and limited knowledge. But once we enter the spirit world we will see more clearly. What we received only in part here we will be offered in fullness there. Each person will make changes, repent, and grow until he receives the fulness of what he had only obtained in part here. But clearly he will not be able to progress past that point. And that includes across kingdoms in the next life. His bounds were set when he died. 

 

Note that you have already accepted that such bounds exist in regards to the celestial kingdom and D&C 76:72-76. Do you see that it is consistent to believe this stretches across all the kingdoms?

[Bobbieaware]

I've already carefully read them both. In this life we are limited. Even the best of us deal with mortal challenges and limited knowledge. But once we enter the spirit world we will see more clearly. What we received only in part here we will be offered in fullness there. Each person will make changes, repent, and grow until he receives the fulness of what he had only obtained in part here. But clearly he will not be able to progress past that point. And that includes across kingdoms in the next life. His bounds were set when he died.

Note that you have already accepted that such bounds exist in regards to the celestial kingdom and D&C 76:72-76. Do you see that it is consistent to believe this stretches across all the kingdoms?

My position is much more nuanced than you realize. My point in engaging you in this manner is to help the readers of this thread come to realize D&C 138 unambiguously proclaims it is the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST that saves the dead; and that means ALL THE DEAD, regardless of what kingdom of glory they inherit. In order to be saved in any of the kingdoms of resurrected glory, D&C 138 stipulates a man or woman must be redeemed (forgiven) through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and this is precisely what is also taught D&C 76.

D&C 138 (which on some points of doctrine goes even beyond the scope of what is taught in D&C 76) reveals that ALL those who who are in the darkness of the spirit prison, including those who rejected or rebelled against the tesimonies of the prophets while they were in the flesh (for this reason they are unworthy of the direct ministrations of the Savior) must, while still in the spirit prison, be taught to accept the Gospel, including the vicariously performed ordinances of baptism by immersion and the laying on of hands to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, before they can be saved in any kingdom of glory. So my primary purpose here is to help readers to understand, just as the Book of Mormon bluntly states, there is no salvation -- and that means any salvation in any kingdom of glory -- apart from the faithful acceptance of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of his salvation. His is the only name given under heaven by which men must be saved so as to inherit one of the Father's many mansions of heavenly glory.

Now, except for semantics, I anticipate you are probably mostly in agreement with what I said above. But there is one place where we will part company: I have a hunch (it is only a hunch and nothing more) that when the fullness of D&C 76 is fully revealed (remember, at the end of that section the Prophet Joseph Smith said there is much more of that revelation he could reveal, if permitted to do so, but he was forbidden to disclose any more than what's recorded there) we will learn that there will be some of those who rebelled against the Gospel while in the flesh who, like Alma the Younger, will exercise such exceeding faith while in the spirit world that they will overcome the odds and through that exceeding faith inherit a glory higher than the telestial kingdom. Of course, there is no sense in arguing about this point because it is just a bit of speculative soteriology on my part for which I am keeping a fully open mind. But the bottom line is that there is no salvation apart from freely accepting Christ and the Gospel by one's own free will and choice. The only ones who will not ultimately be saved through the Gospel of Christ are the sons of perdition who steadfastly refuse to exercise faith in Christ unto repentance.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

I've already carefully read them both. In this life we are limited. Even the best of us deal with mortal challenges and limited knowledge. But once we enter the spirit world we will see more clearly. What we received only in part here we will be offered in fullness there. Each person will make changes, repent, and grow until he receives the fulness of what he had only obtained in part here. But clearly he will not be able to progress past that point. And that includes across kingdoms in the next life. His bounds were set when he died. 

 

Note that you have already accepted that such bounds exist in regards to the celestial kingdom and D&C 76:72-76. Do you see that it is consistent to believe this stretches across all the kingdoms?

Here's one more response I've been wanting to make to something you previously wrote : In my opinion, rather than relying solely foreknowledge, it's much more likely God makes his judgement as to who among the dead would have reacted in a positive way to the full Gospel message in the flesh, and who would not, by how they respond to that same Gospel message in the spirit world. There's no need for the Lord to have to rely on pure foreknowledge in order for him to determine the degree of righteous response of each person to the message of salvation because he can actually observe how each of them react to the message in real time as they sojourn in the spirit world, and this so that they might "be judged according to men in the flesh." So when the scriptures say God knows who would and who not would have accepted the full Gospel message while in the flesh, it's much more likely that determination is made by judging their reactions to the Gospel in the Spirit world than it is to make those determinations by foreknowledge at the moment of death. If' as the scriptures say, God judges us by our works, why judge us by foreknowledge before the works that will testify for or against us have actually been brought forth?

[Mormonmaniac]

There will be no judgements made on what ifs. All judgments will be based on actual works and diligence to laws.

[Ahab]

There will be no judgements made on what ifs. All judgments will be based on actual works and diligence to laws.

That's a good point. What ifs only help us to imagine possible situations, and we will be judged on what actually happened. What we actually did, rather than what we could have done as if we didn't do what we did.

[janderich]

Here's one more response I've been wanting to make to something you previously wrote : In my opinion, rather than relying solely foreknowledge, it's much more likely God makes his judgement as to who among the dead would have reacted in a positive way to the full Gospel message in the flesh, and who would not, by how they respond to that same Gospel message in the spirit world. There's no need for the Lord to have to rely on pure foreknowledge in order for him to determine the degree of righteous response of each person to the message of salvation because he can actually observe how each of them react to the message in real time as they sojourn in the spirit world, and this so that they might "be judged according to men in the flesh." So when the scriptures say God knows who would and who not would have accepted the full Gospel message while in the flesh, it's much more likely that determination is made by judging their reactions to the Gospel in the Spirit world than it is to make those determinations by foreknowledge at the moment of death. If' as the scriptures say, God judges us by our works, why judge us by foreknowledge before the works that will testify for or against us have actually been brought forth?

You introduced this idea of foreknowledge. But the whole premise is faulty because by far, primary development happens in mortality, not while we are spirits. This is the very reason why we came to earth to in the first place. Before this life we had progressed to such an extent that further growth was limited. As an analogy consider mortality as a car traveling on a highway and the spirit world as a man walking on a foot path. If both groups spent ten years traveling, those on the super highway are going to be so far ahead of the walkers that there simply is no comparison. So your whole premise about God needing evidence found only in the spirit world to correctly judge people holds no weight. The issue is not that God prejudges but that growth is extremely slow after this life. 

 

I believe the spirit world is about putting in order that which was damaged during this life. That is the reason we need the gospel and ordinances to be accepted in the next. 

[Bobbieaware]

You introduced this idea of foreknowledge. But the whole premise is faulty because by far, primary development happens in mortality, not while we are spirits. This is the very reason why we came to earth to in the first place. Before this life we had progressed to such an extent that further growth was limited. As an analogy consider mortality as a car traveling on a highway and the spirit world as a man walking on a foot path. If both groups spent ten years traveling, those on the super highway are going to be so far ahead of the walkers that there simply is no comparison. So your whole premise about God needing evidence found only in the spirit world to correctly judge people holds no weight. The issue is not that God prejudges but that growth is extremely slow after this life.

I believe the spirit world is about putting in order that which was damaged during this life. That is the reason we need the gospel and ordinances to be accepted in the next.

I'm trying to understand what you actually believe. Do you believe those people who never had the opportunity to hear, accept and live the Gospel while in the flesh, which constitutes the vast majority of the human race, will have the opportunity to accept the Gospel in the spirit world and thereafter have the opportunity to prove themselves worthy of exaltation in the celestial kingdom? Or do you believe all those who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel in the flesh prove by the way they live their lives in the flesh whether or not they will be worthy of celestial exaltation?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[mbh26]

We do it because we should. Why should we be lazy and dump it all on dead people? That would be like the afternoon shift deciding not to work and just hoping the evening shift will take care of it all. They might but if the boss finds out you might get fired.

 

Earthly bosses don't pay the same wage for showing up during the last 15 minutes of the workday.  

[janderich]

I'm trying to understand what you actually believe. Do you believe those people who never had the opportunity to hear, accept and live the Gospel while in the flesh, which constitutes the vast majority of the human race, will have the opportunity to accept the Gospel in the spirit world and thereafter have the opportunity to prove themselves worthy of exaltation in the celestial kingdom? Or do you believe all those who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel in the flesh prove by the way they live their lives in the flesh whether or not they will be worthy of celestial exaltation?

I most closely align with option 2. We come to earth with a certain spirit. During mortality our spirit changes in positive or negative ways. At the end of mortality our spirit will be in a certain state. It is this state that will determine the kingdom in which we find ourselves. 

 

Again, this life is the time to prepare ourselves. The spirit world is not about changing our course. It is about receiving the blessings we missed. As Amulek says, "for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."  

[The Nehor]

Earthly bosses don't pay the same wage for showing up during the last 15 minutes of the workday.  

 

They also didn't get the job offer until the last 15 minutes. The parable is unclear about those who are hired earlier and lounge about hoping the master will hire some schlubs later on and that they will take care of everything. If you want to risk it though go for it.

[Bobbieaware]

I most closely align with option 2. We come to earth with a certain spirit. During mortality our spirit changes in positive or negative ways. At the end of mortality our spirit will be in a certain state. It is this state that will determine the kingdom in which we find ourselves.

Again, this life is the time to prepare ourselves. The spirit world is not about changing our course. It is about receiving the blessings we missed. As Amulek says, "for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

OK, now I'm beginning to understand your position. and it doesn't square with the scriptures. Your thinking is fairly aligned with non-Latter-day Saint Christians who don't believe there's any need for the Gospel to be preached to the dead because God learns all he needs to know about us by how we live our lives in the body, with our without a knowledge of the Gospel. So congratulations, you think like a non-Mormon.

Paul teaches us that adults cannot prove themselves worthy of eternal life until the Gospel comes into their lives and they are then able to make Gospel oriented choices. And this is the primary reason why Peter and President Joseph F Smith taught us the Gospel is preached to the dead -- so that the spirits of the dead can be judged according to men in the flesh, as if they received the Gospel in the flesh. As Brigham Young often said, the primary purpose of mortality and real test of faith doesn't actually begin for anyone until he or she comes face to face with the Gospel. And this is also what Paul taught: there can be no salvation until one is presented with the Gospel message and makes a decision to believe it and live it, or disbelieve it and reject it. The dead cannot be judged according to men in the flesh until they encounter the Gospel...

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)

There is no way to prove worthiness unto eternal life without knowing the Gospel. To teach otherwise is to undermine the great Latter-day Saint program of salvation of the dead by vicarious ordinances and the dead receiving the Gospel from appointed missionary messengers SENT (remember.Paul's words quoted above?) to them in the spirit world.

And as to your quote from Amulek: in D&C 138, President Joseph F Smith tells us that the dead are capable of repentance. If a bad spirit follows one into the spirit world, just like Alma the younger, he can get rid of that bad spirit through the Gospel's repentance process. These are all such basic LDS Church teachings and I'm.quite surprised you seem to ignore them.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[janderich]

I said I most closely align with option 2, but I of course believe there is a need to preach the gospel to those who have not had an opportunity to accept it. They must receive the ordinances and accept the Savior. However, progress towards salvation will be slower in the spirit world, and those who have had a chance in this life and rejected it will not be able to make up the difference in the next. 

 

Now your stance about large opportunities to progress and second chances is clearly not in line with teachings of the gospel. For example:

- If physical death should strike before moral wrongs have been made right, opportunity for repentance will have been forfeited. Thus, ‘the [real] sting of death is sin’ (1 Corinthians 15:56). (Ensign, May 1992, 73)

- It is true that repentance is always worthwhile. But Spirit World repentance cannot recompense for that which could and should have been done on earth. (The Miracle of Forgiveness, 301)

- There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world. (The Seven Deadly Heresies, BYU Speeches, June 1, 1980)

- And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their heats were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good. (Alma 41:4)

[Bobbieaware]

I said I most closely align with option 2, but I of course believe there is a need to preach the gospel to those who have not had an opportunity to accept it. They must receive the ordinances and accept the Savior. However, progress towards salvation will be slower in the spirit world, and those who have had a chance in this life and rejected it will not be able to make up the difference in the next.

Now your stance about large opportunities to progress and second chances is clearly not in line with teachings of the gospel. For example:

- If physical death should strike before moral wrongs have been made right, opportunity for repentance will have been forfeited. Thus, ‘the [real] sting of death is sin’ (1 Corinthians 15:56). (Ensign, May 1992, 73)

- It is true that repentance is always worthwhile. But Spirit World repentance cannot recompense for that which could and should have been done on earth. (The Miracle of Forgiveness, 301)

- There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world. (The Seven Deadly Heresies, BYU Speeches, June 1, 1980)

- And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their heats were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good. (Alma 41:4)

So this brings up some questions. Questions I will ask after laying out a scenario, variations of which have been played out many times since the beginning of the Restoration of the Gospel.

Let's suppose there's a 17 year-old young man who hears the Restored Gospel for the first time after some missionaries knock on his parent's door and he accepts the missionary's invitation to be taught. While being taught, he's favorably impressed by what he hears; and after reading the Book of Mormon and acting on Moroni's challenge he obtains a powerful spiritual confirmation that the Restored Gospel is true. Thereafter he lives a storied life in the Church: fulfilling a successful mission in Chile, graduating from BYU, getting married in the temple to a lovely "born in the Church" LDS girl, having a family and getting a good job. All the while his testimony of the Restored Gospel is strong and constantly growing in power as he's called, among other positions, to be Ward Mission Leader, Elders Quorum President and eventually he spends five years as a very spiritual and well-respected Bishop.

But then something goes wrong. At age 40 he goes through an unexpected trial of faith. His family and friends are shocked and horrified. Though many try to help him salvage his testimony, he eventually asks to have his name removed from the records of the Church. Not satisfied with his self-excommunication, he becomes a bitter enemy of the Church and this puts such a strain on his marriage that he and his broken-hearted wife divorce. The shattered children are put through hell.

But after thirty years of living life as bitter enemy of the Church, our 70 year-old former member is reconverted to the Restored Gospel through the loving efforts of his very spiritual and knowledgable oldest son.

Here are the questions:

1) Do you believe after thirty years of living life as a bitter ex-Mormon that it's possible for this man to regain his former testimony and even surpass the strength of his former testimony in faith in Christ, love of God, diligence in keeping the commandments and power of spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon and the Restored Gospel are verily true?

2) Do you believe after thirty years of living life as a bitter ex-Mormon that it's possible for this man to have all of his former Gospel blessings restored, including baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and all his former temple blessings (including his temple marriage if his former wife still loves him and is willing to get remarried and resealed?

3) Do you believe after his reconversion that it's possible for this man to obtain full exaltation with his wife and family in the celestial kingdom?

Edited August 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Mormonmaniac]

My opinion is that no judgments will be made as to our eternal homes until after the millennium. At that time we will be judged by who we have become, not where we have been.

[janderich]

So this brings up some questions. Questions I will ask after laying out a scenario, variations of which have been played out many times since the beginning of the Restoration of the Gospel. ...

Here are the questions:

1) Do you believe after thirty years of living life as a bitter ex-Mormon that it's possible for this man to regain his former testimony and even surpass the strength of his former testimony in faith in Christ, love of God, diligence in keeping the commandments and power of spiritual witness that the Book of Mormon and the Restored Gospel are verily true?

2) Do you believe after thirty years of living life as a bitter ex-Mormon that it's possible for this man to have all of his former Gospel blessings restored, including baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and all his former temple blessings (including his temple marriage if his former wife still loves him and is willing to get remarried and resealed?

3) Do you believe after his reconversion that it's possible for this man to obtain full exaltation with his wife and family in the celestial kingdom?

In this life all are possible.

 

Now, why are such large changes possible here and so little in the spirit world? Because we have a body and we are confronted with evil directly. The hosts of Satan are trying with all their effort to unlawfully gain these bodies. We are confronted again and again with their efforts. But we have an advantage (which is little understood). Elder Bednar states it plainly: 

Our physical bodies make possible a breadth, depth, and intensity of experience that simply could not be obtained in our premortal estate...Thus, our relationships with other people, our capacity to recognize and respond to truth, and our ability to obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are amplified through our physical bodies. (Ricks College, Jan 11, 2000, see also Ensign Sep 2001)

 

With such advantages, and faced with such direct confrontation, our progression can be much quicker with a body. The late Elder Melvin J. Ballard gave his opinion that the advantage would be ten times what it would be in the spirit world.

A man may receive the priesthood and all its privileges and blessings, but until he learns to overcome the flesh, his temper, his tongue, his disposition to indulge in the things God has forbidden, he cannot come into the celestial kingdom of God—he must overcome either in this life or in the life to come. But this life is the time in which men are to repent. Do not let any of us imagine that we can go down to the grave not having overcome the corruptions of the flesh and then lose in the grave all our sins and evil tendencies. They will be with us. They will be with the spirit when separated from the body.

 

It is my judgment that any man or woman can do more to conform to the laws of God in one year in this life than they could in ten years when they are dead. The spirit only can repent and change, and then the battle has to go forward with the flesh afterwards. It is much easier to overcome and serve the Lord when both flesh and spirit are combined as one. This is the time when men are more pliable and susceptible. When clay is pliable, it is much easier to change than when it gets hard and sets.

 

This life is the time to repent. That is why I presume it will take a thousand years after the first resurrection until the last group will be prepared to come forth. It will take them a thousand years to do what it would have taken, but three score years and ten to accomplish in this life. ("The Three Degrees of Glory," Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, p.234-261)

Now, with all these plain statements from the scriptures and the brethren, it seems clear to me that this life is the time to repent. That our fate is largely determined at the moment we pass beyond this life and that it would be folly to suppose that we could significantly change our condition in the spirit world.

Edited August 5, 2015 by janderich

[Bobbieaware]

In this life all are possible.

Now, why are such large changes possible here and so little in the spirit world? Because we have a body. While here we do not completely understand our advantage but Elder Bednar has said:

With such advantages, our progression can be much quicker with a body. The late Elder Melvin J. Ballard gave his opinion that the advantage would be ten times what it would be in the spirit world.

Now, with all these plain statements from the scriptures and the brethren, it seems clear to me that this life is the time to repent. That our fate is largely determined at the moment we pass beyond this life and that it would be folly to suppose that we could significantly change our condition in the spirit world.

Name one verse of SCRIPTURE in harmony with D&C 138 that indicates it is harder to repent while in the spirit world? The spirit prison is an extension of the fallen state. Our spirits fall as well as do our bodies. Remember that the fall brings temporal as well as SPIRITUAL DEATH. Because our spirits are fallen there is still plenty to overcome that helps the dead to learn how to repent and change for the better.

So if all things remained the same for our bitter ex-Mormon, including his potential to eventually respond to his son's efforts to help reconvert him, but he was hit by a drunk driver in a freak accident and killed one year before his son would have begun his efforts to help his dad to come back to the Church, does that mean the simple fact that he suffered an untimely accidental death totally negate his opportunity for the positive change that would have occurred if not for a freak accident? Please answer this question clearly and completely in light of the justice and mercy of God. Don't just slough it off.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[CV75]

I think the spirit world will be a more productive place for those who have an attitude of hastening rather than procrastinating the day of their repentance. When one hears the word of God, whether here or in the spirit world, he responds according to his attitude. Additional opportunities to progress will be extended to those who did not have such opportunities before. Progress is a form of repentance, and we don't always repent of sin, but we often repent of something lesser to something greater.

[Ahab]

My opinion is that no judgments will be made as to our eternal homes until after the millennium. At that time we will be judged by who we have become, not where we have been.

Good way to put it. Repentance is always possible and that leads to perfection through the atonement of Christ.

The only ones who won't be exalted are the ones who refuse to repent/turn away from any particular sin(s).

[CV75]

Good way to put it. Repentance is always possible and that leads to perfection through the atonement of Christ.

The only ones who won't be exalted are the ones who refuse to repent/turn away from any particular sin(s).

Now there is something to be said about spirit prison and why people are there, and how much and what kind of repentance can be accomplished.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

 

“The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will* of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress [which to me includes the idea that they may repent] as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138).”

 

and:

 

“The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise. [i would say that these can repent]

 

“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.” [i would say that these cannot repent unto receiving mercy and grace]

 

* While the Lord’s will is the same for all His children on an eternal scale, what He expects of someone to accomplish in one lifetime of mortal / temporal circumstances may differ from someone in another set.

[Ahab]

[i would say that these cannot repent unto receiving mercy and grace]

I would say they can't use the excuse that they are gonna repent when they're feeling the effects of their sins. The time for thinking about it will be over, for the time being, and it will then be the time to feel the effects of their sins. And not just a little bit either. They will be feeling the full effects of their sins, what they did and the trouble that caused, and then after all that they will either be hardened or remorseful. If hardened they will be sons (or daughters) of Perdition and still willing to go on sinning. If remorseful they will have a glimmer of a telestial degree intelligence/glory.

It's either pay the piper before it's too late or suffer the consequences for waiting too long.

* While the Lord’s will is the same for all His children on an eternal scale, what He expects of someone to accomplish in one lifetime of mortal / temporal circumstances may differ from someone in another set.

I agree, depending on how much truth/light/intelligence/glory we have received.

[Bobbieaware]

"If physical death should strike before moral wrongs have been made right, opportunity for repentance will have been forfeited. Thus, ‘the [real] sting of death is sin" (1 Corinthians 15:56). (Ensign, May 1992, 73)

I hope you will thoughtfully answer my previous post as well as this one.

If you don't mind, starting with this post, let's take things one small and specific step at a time. I'll start by asking you the following question: Are you able to doctrinally harmonize the above quote from the May 1992 Ensign with the following verses from D&C 138?

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient WHO HAD REJECTED THE TRUTH to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and CARRY THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL to them that were in darkness, EVEN TO ALL THE SPIRITS OF MEN; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord (I.e. the Lord is extending his arm of mercy to them) and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, EVEN UNTO ALL WHO WOULD REPENT OF THEIR SINS AND RECEIVE THE GOSPEL.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, OR IN TRANSGSSION, HAVING REJECTED THE GOSPEL..

33 These were taught FAITH IN GOD, REPENTENCE FROM SIN , VICARIOUS BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS , THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST by the laying on of hands,

34 AND ALL OTHER PRINCIPLES OF THE GOSPEL that were necessary for them TO KNOW IN ORDER TO QUALIFY THEMSELVES that they might be JUDGED ACCORDING TO MEN IN THE FLESH (i.e, be judged as if they are still living in the flesh) but live according to God in the spirit (I.e. live by the principles of the Gospel and grow spiritually while in the spirit world) (D&C 138)

In light of the above clear presentation of the sacred and hope-inspiring Gospel principles set forth specifically to those who rejected or rebelled against the Gospel message while in the flesh. how does one forfeit any and all rights to repentance unless that repentance is carried out while in the flesh?

Edited August 5, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[janderich]

Name one verse of SCRIPTURE in harmony with D&C 138 that indicates it is harder to repent while in the spirit world? The spirit prison is an extension of the fallen state. Our spirits fall as well as do our bodies. Remember that the fall brings temporal as well as SPIRITUAL DEATH. Because our spirits are fallen there is still plenty to overcome that helps the dead to learn how to repent and change for the better.

So if all things remained the same for our bitter ex-Mormon, including his potential to eventually respond to his son's efforts to help reconvert him, but he was hit by a drunk driver in a freak accident and killed one year before his son would have begun his efforts to help his dad to come back to the Church, does that mean the simple fact that he suffered an untimely accidental death totally negate his opportunity for the positive change that would have occurred if not for a freak accident? Please answer this question clearly and completely in light of the justice and mercy of God. Don't just slough it off.

You may have missed some of my meaning. It is not that it is harder to repent in the spirit world. Rather, change is less beneficial. Why? Because out of this world the challenge is less extreme, but also our our ability to overcome is reduced. In fact, it appears likely to me that as we approach final judgement this process will continue. As evidences become more clear we will at the same time be more constrained by our previous choices until we reach final judgement. 

 

Our spirits are not fallen like our bodies. Spiritual death refers to the fact that our spirits are cut off from God, not that our spirits are in the same state as our bodies. As Brigham Young testified, "The spirit is purer and under the special control and influence of the Lord. But the body is of the earth and is subject to the power of the devil and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p 70)

 

To your scenario. The first problem is that you are assuming a person's death is "untimely". Each person has a season and a time to work in this life. You do not know that a person's death is untimely. In fact I strongly suspect that God knows the time and works within it to accomplish his purposes such that no one's death is "untimely". Next, you are limiting yourself to a narrow sliver of time, of which mortality and the spirit world is just a blip in our eternal progression. If we could see the whole you would recognize the justice and mercy that the Lord extends.

 

Now let me give you two scenarios.

 

1. Suppose there is a person who never hears the gospel. This man abuses his wife and kids, cheats on her, and finally leaves. He has many vices drinking, lying, cheating. At the end of his days he dies in the same conditioned he lived his entire life. Will this person have a chance to repent and reach the celestial kingdom in the spirit world? 

 

2. Suppose there is another person who hears and accepts the gospel with all his heart. He receives all the ordinances. But in his middle years he cheats on his wife. He feels sorry for what he has done but does not repent before he dies at a relatively young age. Is he barred from the celestial kingdom? 

Edited August 6, 2015 by janderich

[mbh26]

With such advantages, and faced with such direct confrontation, our progression can be much quicker with a body.

 

 

Why does it matter how quick our progression is if you're only judged on "what you can do" and then saved by grace?  

 

I question how much basis any of these scriptures have in objective truth.  They seem like spiritual leaders with good intentions telling people in different situations in life what they think will be the most comforting and then at other times what will motivate them the most.    

Edited August 6, 2015 by mbh26