Repentance In Spirit Prison

[janderich]

I hope you will thoughtfully answer my previous post as well as this one.

If you don't mind, starting with this post, let's take things one small and specific step at a time. I'll start by asking you the following question: Are you able to doctrinally harmonize the above quote from the May 1992 Ensign with the following verses from D&C 138?

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient WHO HAD REJECTED THE TRUTH to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and CARRY THE LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL to them that were in darkness, EVEN TO ALL THE SPIRITS OF MEN; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord (I.e. the Lord is extending his arm of mercy to them) and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, EVEN UNTO ALL WHO WOULD REPENT OF THEIR SINS AND RECEIVE THE GOSPEL.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, OR IN TRANSGSSION, HAVING REJECTED THE GOSPEL..

33 These were taught FAITH IN GOD, REPENTENCE FROM SIN , VICARIOUS BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS , THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST by the laying on of hands,

34 AND ALL OTHER PRINCIPLES OF THE GOSPEL that were necessary for them TO KNOW IN ORDER TO QUALIFY THEMSELVES that they might be JUDGED ACCORDING TO MEN IN THE FLESH (i.e, be judged as if they are still living in the flesh) but live according to God in the spirit (I.e. live by the principles of the Gospel and grow spiritually while in the spirit world) (D&C 138)

In light of the above clear presentation of the sacred and hope-inspiring Gospel principles set forth specifically to those who rejected or rebelled against the Gospel message while in the flesh. how does one forfeit any and all rights to repentance unless that repentance is carried out while in the flesh?

Sure I can harmonize them. Clearly a person can repent in the spirit world and accept the gospel. But, as I stated in my previous post, "It is not that it is harder to repent in the spirit world. Rather, change is less beneficial. Why? Because out of this world the challenge is less extreme, but also our our ability to overcome is reduced." 

 

D&C 138 is certainly important doctrine but the BoM, the New Testament, and modern prophets and apostles cannot be left out when they say that this life is the time to repent. 

[Bobbieaware]

You may have missed some of my meaning. It is not that it is harder to repent in the spirit world. Rather, change is less beneficial. Why? Because out of this world the challenge is less extreme, but also our our ability to overcome is reduced. In fact, it appears likely to me that as we approach final judgement this process will continue. As evidences become more clear we will at the same time be more constrained by our previous choices until we reach final judgement. 

 

Our spirits are not fallen like our bodies. Spiritual death refers to the fact that our spirits are cut off from God, not that our spirits are in the same state as our bodies. As Brigham Young testified, "The spirit is purer and under the special control and influence of the Lord. But the body is of the earth and is subject to the power of the devil and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p 70)

 

To your scenario. The first problem is that you are assuming a person's death is "untimely". Each person has a season and a time to work in this life. You do not know that a person's death is untimely. In fact I strongly suspect that God knows the time and works within it to accomplish his purposes such that no one's death is "untimely". Next, you are limiting yourself to a narrow sliver of time, of which mortality and the spirit world is just a blip in our eternal progression. If we could see the whole you would recognize the justice and mercy that the Lord extends.

 

Now let me give you two scenarios.

 

1. Suppose there is a person who never hears the gospel. This man abuses his wife and kids, cheats on her, and finally leaves. He has many vices drinking, lying, cheating. At the end of his days he dies in the same conditioned he lived his entire life. Will this person have a chance to repent and reach the celestial kingdom in the spirit world? 

 

2. Suppose there is another person who hears and accepts the gospel with all his heart. He receives all the ordinances. But in his middle years he cheats on his wife. He feels sorry for what he has done but does not repent before he dies at a relatively young age. Is he barred from the celestial kingdom?

Because I don't want to risk the likelihood most of my rebuttal points will get lost in a plethora of words, I'll respond to your post one item at a time as time and inclination permit.

Think about what you said. You said: "out of this world the challenge is less extreme, but also our our ability to overcome is reduced."

So you assert that while our challenges in the spirit world are less extreme than they are in the flesh, at the same time you say our ability to overcome those less extreme challenges is reduced. So if these two assertions of yours are correct, then everything balances out in the end.and we're basically right back where we started from. Listen carefully. According to what you're saying, in the flesh our increased challenges are compensated for by being endowed with increased ability; and while we're in the spirit world our reduced abilities are compensated for by being given less severe challenges. Same difference. No?

[janderich]

Because I don't want to risk the likelihood most of my rebuttal points will get lost in a plethora of words, I'll respond to your post one item at a time as time and inclination permit.

Think about what you said. You said: "out of this world the challenge is less extreme, but also our our ability to overcome is reduced."

So you assert that while our challenges in the spirit world are less extreme than they are in the flesh, at the same time you say our ability to overcome those less extreme challenges is reduced. So if these two assertions of yours are correct, then everything balances out in the end.and we're basically right back where we started from. Listen carefully. According to what you're saying, in the flesh our increased challenges are compensated for by being endowed with increased ability; and while we're in the spirit world our reduced abilities are compensated for by being given less severe challenges. Same difference. No?

No it doesn't balance out because with less challenge progression is slower. Just like when I lift more weight vs lift less weight. I end up lifting them both, but with less weight muscle growth is less.

[Bobbieaware]

No it doesn't balance out because with less challenge progression is slower. Just like when I lift more weight vs lift less weight. I end up lifting them both, but with less weight muscle growth is less.

Well I see you've missed the point. Is it not true that for a man who's only in moderate physical condition, bench pressing, say, 150 pounds can be every bit as physically difficult, challenging and impactful on the mussels as, let's say, 250 pounds can be for a man who's already in good physical condition? In fact, the man in moderate condition, who's only bench pressing the 150 pounds, could very well wake up the next morning much sorer and with more broken down muscle mass than the man who's already in good shape and bench pressing 250 pounds. If the man with lesser physical strength diligently continues to lift the weights that his weaker body finds difficult and challenging, in a year or two he could very well end up stronger and in better physical condition as well.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[janderich]

Well I see you've missed the point. Is it not true that for a man who's only in moderate physical condition, bench pressing 150 pounds can be every bit as physically difficult, challenging and impactful on the mussels as, let's say, 250 pounds can be for a man who's already in good physical condition? In fact, the man in moderate condition, who's only bench pressing the 150 pounds, could very well wake up the next morning much sorer and with more broken down muscle mass than the man who's already in good shape and bench pressing 250 pounds. If the man with lesser physical strength diligently continues to lift the weights that his weaker body finds difficult and challenging, in a year or two he could very well end up stronger and in better physical condition as well.

Imagine as Elder Ballard said, it is 10 times harder to progress in the spirit world. Suppose both begin to lift weights of the same intensity, (but not the same weight) in their training routines. Instead of growing muscle at a normal rate it is now ten times harder. If they grow muscle at the same slow rate, the person who is lifting 150 lbs will never surpass the person lifting 250 lbs. The only way the person lifting 150 lbs surpasses the person lifting 250 lbs is if the person lifting 250 lbs does nothing and the person lifting 150 lbs works with all his might for a long time. But there is even more here. The person who is lifting 250 lbs has an established habit while the person who can lift only 150 lbs has no routine. So the chance of this weaker person surpassing the stronger is even more remote.

 

We could continue with the analogy but it's not perfect so I don't want to take it too far. I am just trying to explain how I understand the spirit world. 

Edited August 6, 2015 by janderich

[janderich]

Why does it matter how quick our progression is if you're only judged on "what you can do" and then saved by grace?  

 

I question how much basis any of these scriptures have in objective truth.  They seem like spiritual leaders with good intentions telling people in different situations in life what they think will be the most comforting and then at other times what will motivate them the most.    

I don't believe I said a person is only judged on what they can do. Certainly by the end a person is judged on what he does. Also, I don't want to start a tangent, but this idea of saved by grace is misunderstood. Grace is an enabling power. It allows a person to tap into the strength offered by the Savior. But it is not some do nothing, free ride. When we combine faith with humility and desire to change the added strength can be ours. But we still must work. We put forth effort, and that effort is magnified. 

 

It is your prerogative to believe the scriptures and General Authorities, but I would be very careful about pushing aside what they have said. Particularly if it is replaced by some 'feel good' theory not well supported in the scriptures and not at all by authorities.

[Bobbieaware]

Imagine as Elder Ballard said, it is 10 times harder to progress in the spirit world. Suppose both begin to lift weights of the same intensity, (but not the same weight) in their training routines. Instead of growing muscle at a normal rate it is now ten times harder. If they grow muscle at the same slow rate, the person who is lifting 150 lbs will never surpass the person lifting 250 lbs. The only way the person lifting 150 lbs surpasses the person lifting 250 lbs is if the person lifting 250 lbs does nothing and the person lifting 150 lbs works with all his might for a long time. But there is even more here. The person who is lifting 250 lbs has an established habit while the person who can lift only 150 lbs has no routine. So the chance of this weaker person surpassing the stronger is even more remote.

We could continue with the analogy but it's not perfect so I don't want to take it too far. I am just trying to explain how I understand the spirit world.

I was simply trying to point out that if, as you say, the challenges in the spirit prison are less severe than the challenges of mortality (a highly doubtful proposition in consideration of the fact that the scriptures make it clear the suffering that goes on in the spirit prison is so intense it causes even God and all the angels in heaven to bitterly weep out of divine sympathy and pity -- see Moses 7) but the ability to meet those challenges is also reduced, then on a proportional basis we're right back where we started from. But you're right, our disagreement on this point stems, at least in part, from an imperfect analogy.

Before I leave for work, here's something else to consider: I'll start with a quote from the prophet Lehi...

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men WERE PROLONGED, according to the will of God, THAT THEY MIGHT REPENT WHILE IN THE FLESH; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and THEIR TIME WAS LENGTHENED according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. (2 Nephi 2)

You surely remember that during the days of the earliest patriarchs men and women often lived to be nearly a thousand years old. And according to Lehi, it was God's will they live that long so as to provide them ample opportunity to repent before they died. So if God thought that in order to be just and fair he needed to give the first generations of the children of men a nearly 1,000 year lifespan -- and this so that their "first chance" to prove themselves faithful might be of long enough duration to give them ample opportunity to prove themselves faithful to the cause of Christ, or to repent in the event they allowed themselves to backslide away from belief and faithfulness -- how is it just and fair that on average we're given 92% less earthly probation time than these early patriarchs? And if you agree it doesn't seem fair we have so much less time in the flesh to repent than had the ancient patriarchs, how does a truly just God make up the difference to us so that we can have similar ample time to "get it right?"

Edited August 8, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Mormonmaniac]

The first patriarchs were given extra time because it woyld be thousands of years in spirit prison before the gates would be opened at Christs death before they would be visited.

[Bobbieaware]

The first patriarchs were given extra time because it woyld be thousands of years in spirit prison before the gates would be opened at Christs death before they would be visited.

Good guess, but it appears unlikely you are correct. After all, Noah lived to be 950 years old and the unrepentant people of his day, who perished in the floods, were by the Lord's command condemned to confinement in the spirit prison until the faroff day of Christ's atoning sacrifice and resurrection.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

39 And that which I have chosen (Christ) hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment; (Moses 7)

[janderich]

I was simply trying to point out that if, as you say, the challenges in the spirit prison are less severe than the challenges of mortality (a highly doubtful proposition in consideration of the fact that the scriptures make it clear the suffering that goes on in the spirit prison is so intense it causes even God and all the angels in heaven to bitterly weep out of divine sympathy and pity -- see Moses 7) but the ability to meet those challenges is also reduced, then on a proportional basis we're right back where we started from. But you're right, our disagreement on this point stems, at least in part, from an imperfect analogy.

Before I leave for work, here's something else to consider: I'll start with a quote from the prophet Lehi...

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men WERE PROLONGED, according to the will of God, THAT THEY MIGHT REPENT WHILE IN THE FLESH; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and THEIR TIME WAS LENGTHENED according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. (2 Nephi 2)

You surely remember that during the days of the earliest patriarchs men and women often lived to be nearly a thousand years old. And according to Lehi, it was God's will they live that long so as to provide them ample opportunity to repent before they died. So if God thought that in order to be just and fair he needed to give the first generations of the children of men a nearly 1,000 year lifespan -- and this so that their "first chance" to prove themselves faithful might be of long enough duration to give them ample opportunity to prove themselves faithful to the cause of Christ, or to repent in the event they allowed themselves to backslide away from belief and faithfulness -- how is it just and fair that on average we're given 92% less earthly probation time than these early patriarchs? And if you agree it doesn't seem fair we have so much less time in the flesh to repent than had the ancient patriarchs, how does a truly just God make up the difference to us so that we can have similar ample time to "get it right?"

In 2 Ne 2 Lehi is here considering two statements. The first by God who said, "for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Moses 3:17, Gen 2:17). This is not stated directly by Lehi but is clearly part of his thinking. The second statement by the father of lies who said, "Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." (2 Ne 2:18). Since the Lord said that they should surely die, but they needed space to repent, he lengthened out the time until their death. So, by this verse (21), we need not suppose that Lehi was speaking about people living 1,000 years instead of 100. Rather, the point is, that they did not die immediately after partaking of the fruit in order to allow them to change their ways. In fact, I see this verse as providing more evidence for what I am saying because Lehi says, And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh". Why would their days need to be prolonged in the flesh at all, if they could fully repent in the spirit world and receive all they needed there? 

 

Now, I have already addressed your next question to some extent. It is simply about people not living the same length of time and the belief that the shorter length of time is somehow unjust. As I said before, the Lord knows the times of our birth and death. It is all according to the Lord's time table. As Alma says, "And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man." (Alma 40:10). 

 

Next, more time on the earth is a double edged sword. We are given more time to mess it up and more time to get it right. So is more time a blessing or a curse? Jesus speaking of the last days tells us shorter days are a blessing, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matt 24:22). At any rate, our potential for growth is not exclusively tied to our length of time in the flesh. It is about experiencing and overcoming challenges. One very difficult experience may be worth a 1,000 years of untroubled days while on the other hand some experiences and challenges may lead us to destruction. I leave it in the Lord's capable hands. We don't need to worry about the times we have been given. Someone's days may be long and others short. I thank the Lord for both.

[Bobbieaware]

In 2 Ne 2 Lehi is here considering two statements. The first by God who said, "for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Moses 3:17, Gen 2:17). This is not stated directly by Lehi but is clearly part of his thinking. The second statement by the father of lies who said, "Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." (2 Ne 2:18). Since the Lord said that they should surely die, but they needed space to repent, he lengthened out the time until their death. So, by this verse (21), we need not suppose that Lehi was speaking about people living 1,000 years instead of 100. Rather, the point is, that they did not die immediately after partaking of the fruit in order to allow them to change their ways. In fact, I see this verse as providing more evidence for what I am saying because Lehi says, And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh". Why would their days need to be prolonged in the flesh at all, if they could fully repent in the spirit world and receive all they needed there?

Now, I have already addressed your next question to some extent. It is simply about people not living the same length of time and the belief that the shorter length of time is somehow unjust. As I said before, the Lord knows the times of our birth and death. It is all according to the Lord's time table. As Alma says, "And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man." (Alma 40:10).

Next, more time on the earth is a double edged sword. We are given more time to mess it up and more time to get it right. So is more time a blessing or a curse? Jesus speaking of the last days tells us shorter days are a blessing, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matt 24:22). At any rate, our potential for growth is not exclusively tied to our length of time in the flesh. It is about experiencing and overcoming challenges. One very difficult experience may be worth a 1,000 years of untroubled days while on the other hand some experiences and challenges may lead us to destruction. I leave it in the Lord's capable hands. We don't need to worry about the times we have been given. Someone's days may be long and others short. I thank the Lord for both.

You've simply reiterated and validated what I said in my previous post: For reasons unexplained, the earliest inhabitants of planet earth lived in the flesh about 14 to 15 times longer than we do. So the question is: If what we do in the flesh is all-important, and any gains that can be made for change and spiritual growth in the spirit world are negligible by comparison, how is God being just and merciful in allowing we latter-day inhabitants of earth to have a lifespan that's 15 times shorter that the earliest inhabitants? If anything, especially if as the scriptures say we are going to be judged according to our works, and if as you say the works performed in the spirit world are of far, far less importance than those done in the flesh, then why shouldn't we also be given a much longer lifespan? It would be interesting to know how many thousands (millions?) of backsliders lived in the days of the patriarchs who returned to full fellowship and future celestial glory hundreds of years after first going astray? Where's the fairness and moral symmetry when one compares the amount if time the early inhabitants of earth had to "get it right" when compared to the relatively paltry span of time we modern humans are afforded?

And here are even more significant questions for you: If, as you say, God can determine by the actions of non-members, who live their entire lives in the flesh without a knowledge of the Gospel, whether or not they will be worthy of exaltation without him having to take into consideration what they will do in the spirit world, then why did the Lord bother to lengthen out the days of probation for earth's earliest inhabitants? And if all that additional probationary time given to earth's early-dwellers was unnecessary because God can determine who's going to be worthy of celestial glory simply by observing how they live their lives on earth, with or without a knowledge of the Gospel, then why not allow all of earth's inhabitants, from the beginning to the end, to have about the same amount of probationary time in t,he flesh so there will appear to be no injustice, disparity or partiality on the part of God?

Edited August 8, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[reubendunn]

The use of Amulek in this discussion may be out of context.

 

Amulek was speaking to members of the Lords Church, those already under covenant. His warning to them not to procrastinate the day of their repentance unto the end, had more to them not living up to those covenants that they had already entered into. I look at this as an applicable warning to myself, who has already made covenants, in and out of the temple.

 

I would suggest that the division in the Spirit World, paradise and Spirit Prison, is literal and that those who have either died without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ, to whatever degree, as well as those who have had that knowledge, e.g., members who were under covenant while in mortality but, for whatever reason, have walked away from it, (The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood would come to mind.)are separated from the "Paradise" side of things.

 

We know, thanks to the detailed revelation of the Lord, through President Joseph F. Smith, that the Lord has made provision to have his message of vicarious faith, repentance, and baptism, along with the necessary vicarious temple ordinances, to be done, both on this side of the vail. and on the other side.

 

Moral agency is still there. People can still accept or reject that opportunity.

 

Those who accept that work which is being done in the temples, are, according to LDS Doctrine, relocated into Paradise.

 

However, they are still doing to be judged by the Lord at the last day when the books are open. There is no short cut to either of the three kingdoms of Glory. All must have that same process.

 

I think some here have confused this process here to some degree.

[janderich]

You've simply reiterated and validated what I said in my previous post: For reasons unexplained, the earliest inhabitants of planet earth lived in the flesh about 14 to 15 times longer than we do. So the question is: If what we do in the flesh is all-important, and any gains that can be made for change and spiritual growth in the spirit world are negligible by comparison, how is God being just and merciful in allowing we latter-day inhabitants of earth to have a lifespan that's 15 times shorter that the earliest inhabitants? If anything, especially if as the scriptures say we are going to be judged according to our works, and if as you say the works performed in the spirit world are of far, far less importance than those done in the flesh, then why shouldn't we also be given a much longer lifespan? It would be interesting to know how many thousands (millions?) of backsliders lived in the days of the patriarchs who returned to full fellowship and future celestial glory hundreds of years after first going astray? Where's the fairness and moral symmetry when one compares the amount if time the early inhabitants of earth had to "get it right" when compared to the relatively paltry span of time we modern humans are afforded?

And here are even more significant questions for you: If, as you say, God can determine by the actions of non-members, who live their entire lives in the flesh without a knowledge of the Gospel, whether or not they will be worthy of exaltation without him having to take into consideration what they will do in the spirit world, then why did the Lord bother to lengthen out the days of probation for earth's earliest inhabitants? And if all that additional probationary time given to earth's early-dwellers was unnecessary because God can determine who's going to be worthy of celestial glory simply by observing how they live their lives on earth, with or without a knowledge of the Gospel, then why not allow all of earth's inhabitants, from the beginning to the end, to have about the same amount of probationary time in t,he flesh so there will appear to be no injustice, disparity or partiality on the part of God?

I have not reiterated and validated what you have said. I think you need to re-read my post. You seem very concerned that everyone get equal amount of time. But time is only one variable and the Savior himself has lengthened or shortened people's life as seemeth him good. Some people can grow more in one day than others grow in a life time. 

 

Perhaps you can catch my meaning by listening to the words of Harold B. Lee who was speaking to a friend, West Belnap who was suffering terribly from cancer and considering stoping treatment.

 

West, You and I ...know that life is very precious thing and...has a very important meaning. Every minute of it, even the suffering of it...How do you and I know but what the suffering you're going through is a refineing process by which obedience neccessary to exaltation is made up? ...Live it out to the last day, West...Who knows but what the experience you are having now will pay dividends greater than all the rest of your life. Live it true to the end, and we'll bless you and pray to God that pains beyond your endurance will not be permitted by a merciful God. (Quoted in A Disciple's Life p. 260)

[Bobbieaware]

The use of Amulek in this discussion may be out of context.

 

Amulek was speaking to members of the Lords Church, those already under covenant. His warning to them not to procrastinate the day of their repentance unto the end, had more to them not living up to those covenants that they had already entered into. I look at this as an applicable warning to myself, who has already made covenants, in and out of the temple.

 

I would suggest that the division in the Spirit World, paradise and Spirit Prison, is literal and that those who have either died without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ, to whatever degree, as well as those who have had that knowledge, e.g., members who were under covenant while in mortality but, for whatever reason, have walked away from it, (The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood would come to mind.)are separated from the "Paradise" side of things.

 

We know, thanks to the detailed revelation of the Lord, through President Joseph F. Smith, that the Lord has made provision to have his message of vicarious faith, repentance, and baptism, along with the necessary vicarious temple ordinances, to be done, both on this side of the vail. and on the other side.

 

Moral agency is still there. People can still accept or reject that opportunity.

 

Those who accept that work which is being done in the temples, are, according to LDS Doctrine, relocated into Paradise.

 

However, they are still doing to be judged by the Lord at the last day when the books are open. There is no short cut to either of the three kingdoms of Glory. All must have that same process.

 

I think some here have confused this process here to some degree.

Welcome! Your knowledge and wisdom are much appreciated!

A question for you (you seem to be someone who could answer this questions itch ample knowledge): Poster janderich disagrees with me when I say our spirits, as well as our bodies, are fallen. He also disagrees with with me when I say the spirit world is an extension, or continuation, of the fallen state. Janderich believes only our bodies are fallen but not our spirits, and it is for this reason that our there is very little spiritual progress that can be made in the spirit world. My belief is that our spirits as well as our bodies are subject to the fall. It's my position that 2 Nehpi 9 makes it clear our spirits are fallen because, according to Jacob's words, if our spirits were left in Ithe spirit world without a glorious resurrection, we would all eventually and inevitably fall into the spiritual "black hole" of the devil's power and become devil's ourselves. What do you think?

[Bobbieaware]

I have not reiterated and validated what you have said. I think you need to re-read my post. You seem very concerned that everyone get equal amount of time. But time is only one variable and the Savior himself has lengthened or shortened people's life as seemeth him good. Some people can grow more in one day than others grow in a life time.

Perhaps you can catch my meaning by listening to the words of Harold B. Lee who was speaking to a friend, West Belnap who was suffering terribly from cancer and considering stoping treatment.

You acknowledge there is a great disparity between how much probationary earth-time we modern folks are given, as compared to how much more probationary earth-time the early inhabitants of the earth were given, but supply no answer as to why, other than to say that God can do whatever he sees fit to do. But there is no actual attempt to logically explain the rationale behind that apparent injustice and disparity.

But guess what? I CAN supply a logical and satisfying answer to the question. And that answer is that God makes up for that disparity in allotted earthly probation time by judging the spirits in the spirit world according to (I.e. as if they are) men in the flesh; and this because, through the justice, mercy and love of God, they are given the opportunity live lives of dynamic spiritual growth while in the world of spirits by faithfully living the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[VideoGameJunkie]

I would like to avoid spirit prison/school at all costs so I'm trying my best to repent as much as possible in this life. Problem is, I keep sinning.

[janderich]

You acknowledge there is a great disparity between how much probationary earth-time we modern folks are given, as compared to how much more probationary earth-time the early inhabitants of the earth were given, but supply no answer as to why, other than to say that God can do whatever he sees fit to do. But there is no actual attempt to logically explain the rationale behind that apparent injustice and disparity.

But guess what? I CAN supply a logical and satisfying answer to the question. And that answer is that God makes up for that disparity in allotted earthly probation time by judging the spirits in the spirit world according to (I.e. as if they are) men in the flesh; and this because, through the justice, mercy and love of God, they are given the opportunity live lives of dynamic spiritual growth while in the world of spirits by faithfully living the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think I have explained why time on this mortal earth can be different for different people, but you keep refusing to acknowledge my points. Now, your position is logical when it comes to one case: the amount of time people have to change. But it fails terribly in a number of other critical ways.   

 

1. You do not account for why we needed to come here in the first place and what advantage that gives us over our pre-earth life.

2. You do not account for the scriptures and prophets who have taught that this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God.

3. You do not account for the disparity between those who you believe can and can't enter the celestial kingdom as given in the scenarios I provided in post #74. 

Edited August 8, 2015 by janderich

[janderich]

Welcome! Your knowledge and wisdom are much appreciated!

A question for you (you seem to be someone who could answer this questions itch ample knowledge): Poster janderich disagrees with me when I say our spirits, as well as our bodies, are fallen.

Correct, our spirits are cut off, not fallen.

He also disagrees with with me when I say the spirit world is an extension, or continuation, of the fallen state.

Partially true. I believe that the spirit world is a step above this fallen world. We receive a partial judgement and gain more understanding of our previous life as spirits but still have opportunity to progress in more limited ways before the final judgement.

Janderich believes only our bodies are fallen but not our spirits, and it is for this reason that our there is very little spiritual progress that can be made in the spirit world. My belief is that our spirits as well as our bodies are subject to the fall.

Close. During our mortal life, because our spirit is cut off from God, we can may choose to allow our spirit to be taken over by the power of the evil one. In as much as we allow him, he will have power over us in the world to come.

It's my position that 2 Nehpi 9 makes it clear our spirits are fallen because, according to Jacob's words, if our spirits were left in Ithe spirit world without a glorious resurrection, we would all eventually and inevitably fall into the spiritual "black hole" of the devil's power and become devil's ourselves. What do you think?

While I do believe are spirits are cut off not fallen, I don't disagree with your statement. As 2 Nephi 9 clarifies, "because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord." (verse 6). Cut off from his presence we would eventually become angels to a devil to rise no more.

[Bobbieaware]

Correct, our spirits are cut off, not fallen.

Partially true. I believe that the spirit world is a step above this fallen world. We receive a partial judgement and gain more understanding of our previous life as spirits but still have opportunity to progress in more limited ways before the final judgement.

Close. During our mortal life, because our spirit is cut off from God, we can may choose to allow our spirit to be taken over by the power of the evil one. In as much as we allow him, he will have power over us in the world to come.

While I do believe are spirits are cut off not fallen, I don't disagree with your statement. As 2 Nephi 9 clarifies, "because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord." (verse 6). Cut off from his presence we would eventually become angels to a devil to rise no more.

There is one reason and one reason alone why the spirits in paradise exist in a state where the effects of the fall are mitigated; and that is because they entered paradise as spirits who accepted the Gospel of Christ, received it's ordinances, and remained faithful till death. If they had not received and lived the Gospel on earth, they would have ended up in the darkness of hell with all the others suffering from what Jacob calls "the death of the spirit." The way of escape from the fallen state was established by God, and that means of escape is called the Gospel of Jrsus Christ. Those in the spirit prison suffer from spiritual death which, along side the death of the mortal body, is the very essence of the fallen state. The spirits in spirit prison escape from "the death of the spirit" the way we all do -- by exercising living faith in Christ, repenting of their sins, accepting the ordinance of baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end. They need the Gospel and it's saving ordinances because they are fallen and need to be redeemed by the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Christ, just like everybody else. Do you deny that the death of the spirit in hell -- a state which D&C 138 tells us many will escape by means of the Gospel -- is a manifestation of the fall? Also, If mortality is one of the major consequences of the fall, then there is nothing mor mortal than being dead.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[VideoGameJunkie]

Is this punishment in spirit prison all emotional or is there physical pain too. I mean granted emotional torment is worse but I'm just wondering. When I went through my psychosis episode in 2013 I thought I died and went to spirit prison and it was the scariest moment of my life. I can only imagine what the real thing is like.

[janderich]

There is one reason and one reason alone why the spirits in paradise exist in a state where the effects of the fall are mitigated; and that is because they entered paradise as spirits who accepted the Gospel of Christ, received it's ordinances, and remained faithful till death. If they had not received and lived the Gospel on earth, they would have ended up in the darkness of hell with all the others suffering from what Jacob calls "the death of the spirit." The way of escape from the fallen state was established by God, and that means of escape is called the Gospel of Jrsus Christ. Those in the spirit prison suffer from spiritual death which, along side the death of the mortal body, is the very essence of the fallen state. The spirits in spirit prison escape from "the death of the spirit" the way we all do -- by exercising living faith in Christ, repenting of their sins, accepting the ordinance of baptism, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end. They need the Gospel and it's saving ordinances because they are fallen and need to be redeemed by the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Christ, just like everybody else. Do you deny that the death of the spirit in hell -- a state which D&C 138 tells us many will escape by means of the Gospel -- is a manifestation of the fall? Also, If mortality is one of the major consequences of the fall, then there is nothing mor mortal than being dead.

It is very clear, spiritual death is separation from God. There are two aspects of this separation. First, the fall initiated our separation from God, but through Christ we are brought back in his presence. Second, our own disobedience separates us from God, for which we must repent. 

 

Your initial contention was that the fall effected our spirits and bodies the same. I let you know that this was not the case. That our spirits were pure while our bodies are of the earth and more directly under the control of the devil. Now you are asking different questions. Is death of the spirit in Hell a manifestation of the fall? Of course. Why would I deny this? Separated from God, a person may disobey and because of this disobedience enter spirit prison.  

 

Now of course there is something the BoM calls second death. Second death is when our spirits are permanently cut off from righteousness, despite what Christ has done (Hel 14:18). Individuals in this state know all about God and have received his light, but have sunk so low that they have lost the desire to repent. In such a state the gospel plan is useless to them. These are sons of perdition.

[Broker]

Is this punishment in spirit prison all emotional or is there physical pain too. I mean granted emotional torment is worse but I'm just wondering. When I went through my psychosis episode in 2013 I thought I died and went to spirit prison and it was the scariest moment of my life. I can only imagine what the real thing is like.

There's a difference between receiving punishment for sinful behavior and suffering the demands of justice. 

God may enact punishments (physical or otherwise) to motivate people to repent (here or in the Spirit World). I don't think there are punishments of physical pain in the Spirit World, but that's just my opinion.

 

If people won't repent of their sin in the Spirit World (or until they do), I believe they will suffer justice. I think that means they will be forced to fully understand the suffering they have caused others. They can never make up for what they did, only the Savior can. I don't think people will be clamoring for revenge or punishment upon those who hurt them - because they'll also be asking for forgiveness from those they injured.

 

To me, the scriptures are not very clear about what suffering for your sins means. From what I've been able to reason, it means fully comprehending and feeling what bad things you did to others. Can you imagine what that would mean for a Hitler , Stalin and others (e.g. those who promote abortions)?  To take upon themselves, the comprehension of the full suffering of those they injured ? They would probably beg for annihilation.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Broker, it truly makes you wonder how Jesus got through the suffering of all the sins and pains and badness in Gethsemene. That's why He's my hero. And I know He would go through all of it just for one person alone. That's how much Jesus loves us.

Edited August 10, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Calm]

What do you mean by physical pain, VGJ? If we don't have our body, can we even experience physical pain (usually defined as something on the body hurting or causing pain)?

[Calm]

"From what I've been able to reason, it means fully comprehending and feeling what bad things you did to others. Can you imagine what that would mean....  [t]o take upon themselves, the comprehension of the full suffering of those they injured"

This is how I've concluded it will be like. Those who don't care about others will have to endure the suffering/pain, but it won't change them at their core save to avoid the experience themselves in the future. Those who care about what they've done to others for the others' sake will desire to humble themselves and repent and this caring for others will open them up to the Atonement.