Repentance In Spirit Prison

[Ahab]

I would like to avoid spirit prison/school at all costs so I'm trying my best to repent as much as possible in this life. Problem is, I keep sinning.

As long as you keep repenting your sins are covered by the atonement. Just do your best to not sin intentionally and when you mess up just repent again. It's a very merciful program.

[Bobbieaware]

It is very clear, spiritual death is separation from God. There are two aspects of this separation. First, the fall initiated our separation from God, but through Christ we are brought back in his presence. Second, our own disobedience separates us from God, for which we must repent.

Your initial contention was that the fall effected our spirits and bodies the same. I let you know that this was not the case. That our spirits were pure while our bodies are of the earth and more directly under the control of the devil. Now you are asking different questions. Is death of the spirit in Hell a manifestation of the fall? Of course. Why would I deny this? Separated from God, a person may disobey and because of this disobedience enter spirit prison.

Now of course there is something the BoM calls second death. Second death is when our spirits are permanently cut off from righteousness, despite what Christ has done (Hel 14:18). Individuals in this state know all about God and have received his light, but have sunk so low that they have lost the desire to repent. In such a state the gospel plan is useless to them. These are sons of perdition.

My main point here is that the post-mortal spirit world is an extension of our mortal probation in the flesh, or "our second estate," Unless the spirits who enter the spirit world are already saved, they must overcome spiritual weakness, the tendency to sin (one of the essential elements of the fallen nature) and the wiles of the devil through accepting and living the Gospel of Christ while in that world of post-mortal spirits. If the fallen nature doesn't follow the wicked into the spirit world, and if after death their spirits are so pure and holy, why is it that their wicked tendencies (in D&C 138, president Smith calls it "bondage to sin"), ungodly motivations and consuming addictions of the fallen state in the flesh follow them there? Why doesn't their ungodliness get left behind with their fallen dead bodies? If the wicked in the post-mortal spirit world are not still existing in a fallen and spiritually unregenerated state, what then would you call that state of spiritual darkness President Smith vividly describes in D&C 138?

By the way, I'm not the only Latter-day Saint who believes the post-mortal spirit world is an extension of mortality -- an integral part of the second estate. Read for yourself:

"We tend to overlook the reality that the spirit world and paradise are part, really, of the second estate" From The Promise of Discipleship, Neal A Maxwell (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2001), pp. 105-114

"The scriptures and the prophets of this dispensation have referred to our present condition—a combination of spirit body and physical mortal body—as being part of our second estate. This estate began when our spirit body and physical mortal body came together initially, and it ends at the resurrection when our spirit body and our immortal physical body come together, never to be separated again. Our second estate does not end with our physical temporal death; it ends with our resurrection. Therefore, our next major phase of existence—the postmortal spiritual existence—is part of our second estate.

The postmortal spiritual existence is part of our second estate and remains a time of testing and proving. It is evident that agency will continue to play an important part of that realm, and will undoubtedly do so throughout all the eternities to come." (Gospel Scholars Series by Daniel H. Ludlow)

Parley P. Pratt:

"The spirit world is . . . an intermediate state, a probation, a place of preparation, improvement, instruction, or education, where spirits are chastened and improved, and where, if found worthy, they may be taught a knowledge of the Gospel." (Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 126)

"We will have to work there to grow and to make progress just as we have here. . . . But we shall find that knowledge and power will not come to us there as the rain that falls upon us, without any effort of ours to acquire them. We shall have to exercise ourselves and exert our powers there just as we have to here. We shall be rewarded according to our diligence and faithfulness in the exercise of our agency." (Cannon, Gospel Truth, 60)

Elder Neal A. Maxwell:

"We do not now know precisely how God handles things in the spirit world so that life there is an extension of walking by faith. Death does not suddenly bestow upon the disbeliever full awareness of all reality, thereby obviating the need for any faith. Instead, what follows death is a continuum of the basic structure in mortality—until the Judgment Day, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ (see Romans 14:11; Philippians 2:10; D&C 76:110). Until then, we 'walk by faith, not by sight' (2 Corinthians 5:7). (Maxwell, That Ye May Believe, 94)

"The postmortal spirit world is a natural continuation of earth life. It comprises the other vital portion of our second estate. The second estate began with our birth as our spirit and physical body were joined together, and it continues until they are reunited again in a resurrected state. . . . Both phases of the second estate are probationary periods where we learn, develop, and test our spiritual commitments. Our priorities must be developed and refined before we can exit from the postmortal spirit world. " (Ludlow, Principles and Practices, 225)

Edited August 11, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

It is very clear, spiritual death is separation from God. There are two aspects of this separation. First, the fall initiated our separation from God, but through Christ we are brought back in his presence. Second, our own disobedience separates us from God, for which we must repent. 

 

Your initial contention was that the fall effected our spirits and bodies the same. I let you know that this was not the case. That our spirits were pure while our bodies are of the earth and more directly under the control of the devil. Now you are asking different questions. Is death of the spirit in Hell a manifestation of the fall? Of course. Why would I deny this? Separated from God, a person may disobey and because of this disobedience enter spirit prison.  

 

Now of course there is something the BoM calls second death. Second death is when our spirits are permanently cut off from righteousness, despite what Christ has done (Hel 14:18). Individuals in this state know all about God and have received his light, but have sunk so low that they have lost the desire to repent. In such a state the gospel plan is useless to them. These are sons of perdition.

Please be sure to read my previous post to you (just above), Here is a more complete quote from Elder Maxwell:

"We tend to overlook the reality that the spirit world and paradise are part, really, of the second estate. The work of the Lord, so far as the second estate is concerned, is completed before the Judgment and the Resurrection.

Since those who go to the celestial kingdom include, as revealed, those who "overcome by faith" (D&C 76:53), the same efforts and triumph would need to occur in the spirit world before they receive resurrection and the entitlement to enter the celestial kingdom. . . .

He gave us our spirit birth, bringing the first estate to all. He gave the gift to us of mortality, or the second estate, where all might be "added upon," leaving one-third of the host free to be rebels! (Abraham 3:26; Revelation 12:4). He provides in the spirit world a continuum of mortality's probation, the great opportunity for all." (Maxwell, The Promise of Discipleship, p. 111)

[janderich]

My main point here is that the post-mortal spirit world is an extension of our mortal probation in the flesh, or "our second estate," Unless the spirits who enter the spirit world are already saved, they must overcome spiritual weakness, the tendency to sin (one of the essential elements of the fallen nature) and the wiles of the devil through accepting and living the Gospel of Christ while in that world of post-mortal spirits. If the fallen nature doesn't follow the wicked into the spirit world, and if after death their spirits are so pure and holy, why is it that their wicked tendencies (in D&C 138, president Smith calls it "bondage to sin"), ungodly motivations and consuming addictions of the fallen state in the flesh follow them there? Why doesn't their ungodliness get left behind with their fallen dead bodies? If the wicked in the post-mortal spirit world are not still existing in a fallen and spiritually unregenerated state, what then would you call that state of spiritual darkness President Smith vividly describes in D&C 138?

In a way the spirit world is an extension of our mortal lives and in a way it is not. It is in the sense that there is still some growth, some ability to change. It is not, in the sense that we do not have our bodies, our potential for growth is more limited, and we have received and partial judgement based on our works in the flesh. 

 

So, for example, I can give you quotes about this life being the end of probation.  

"The promise is that if they keep this, their second (that is, our mortal) estate, they "shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." . . . [W]e came to earth for two purposes: one, to obtain physical bodies of flesh and bone in the likeness of our Heavenly Father; and two, to be proved-to see if we "will do all things whatsoever the Lord" our God commands us. (CR 1976 April, p 118-19)

 

And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation - that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe" (D&C 29:43)

But in the end we would each only be partly right because the next life does represents a significant change but not the complete change that will occur at the resurrection. This first change will bring us a step closer to the end in that we will have: a deeper recognition of what we have done right and wrong (and consequently sadness or happiness) and a more limited opportunity to repent (but still a chance to some extent).

 

Now you ask why doesn't their ungodliness get left behind with the dead bodies? Simply because in as much as a person chooses to yield to the flesh during mortality then the devil has power over their spirits in the next. This life does not simply effect our bodies, but also our spirits. 

. 

[Bobbieaware]

In a way the spirit world is an extension of our mortal lives and in a way it is not. It is in the sense that there is still some growth, some ability to change. It is not, in the sense that we do not have our bodies, our potential for growth is more limited, and we have received and partial judgement based on our works in the flesh.

So, for example, I can give you quotes about this life being the end of probation.

But in the end we would each only be partly right because the next life does represents a significant change but not the complete change that will occur at the resurrection. This first change will bring us a step closer to the end in that we will have: a deeper recognition of what we have done right and wrong (and consequently sadness or happiness) and a more limited opportunity to repent (but still a chance to some extent).

Now you ask why doesn't their ungodliness get left behind with the dead bodies? Simply because in as much as a person chooses to yield to the flesh during mortality then the devil has power over their spirits in the next. This life does not simply effect our bodies, but also our spirits.

.

Do you believe any of those who hear the Gospel for the first time in the post-mortal spirit world will be able to grow enough spiritually so as to obtain eternal life?

If you do believe it will be possible for such people to obtain eternal life, how will they be able to obtain eternal life if spiritual growth in the post-mortal spirit world is extremely limited?

Why does the Church allow members to perform all the ordinances of the temple -- including endowments and dealings -- for nonmember parents, grandparents and ancestors who were known to have lived lives of wickedness on the earth without ever repenting or asking for forgiveness before death?

As to your last paragraph: you have said that after death the spirits of men no longer exist in a fallen state. So what would you call the state of the wicked who are in "darkness" and "the bondage of sin" (Joseph F. Smith's words) in the post-mortal spirit world?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Paradox_58]

This thread is fascinating to me because I have also read a number of near-death experiences to try to get a feel for what the spirit world is like. Interestingly, an atheist (now Christian) who died described it as dark, horrible and evil until he remembered learning about Jesus in his childhood, and began, like Alma the younger, calling upon the name of Christ, whereupon he was taken to a better place where he began to have the gospel of Jesus Christ explained to him in its most basic format. Another man, a Christian-sect priest, described the spirit world as much more beautiful than this, but limited, and he was aware that he was separated from the "higher" beings, including Christ, by an unseen but very real barrier, and that he was aware that he would need more information than he presently had access to in order to move beyond that barrier and become one of the "higher beings" he said visited him and his friends/family in the place he was in for a short time. This same person said that those in his, limited sphere, visited and ministered to those in deeper darkness, trying to help them see that they could repent and change, but sometimes facing the reality that those in darkness didn't want change and in fact, avoided and hated light. 

 

Every NDE description of "hell" that I have read emphasizes the fact that it is the mindset of the person, and has seemed to agree that it is harder to change a mindset in the spirit than in the flesh. This jives with Amulek's declaration in Alma 34:34--"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis (that is, facing death) that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for the same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."  

 

What I learn from that is that there are many people, who, according to Joseph Smith, would gladly accept the gospel, but "they know not where to find it." When these die, why would they not gladly accept the message of those "higher beings" who bring the good news of Jesus Christ's full mission and the great plan that was provided to us to allow us to become even as Christ is? I take great comfort in that thought, and realize that most of humanity (despite the incorrect depictions of historians and current media) are and always have been good, loving, people who want to do the best they can, with a few known exceptions outlined in the scriptures. 

[janderich]

Do you believe any of those who hear the Gospel for the first time in the post-mortal spirit world will be able to grow enough spiritually so as to obtain eternal life?

Certainly many who hear the gospel for the first time in the spirit world will be able to obtain eternal life.

 

Now, if your asking if any and all of those who have never heard the gospel in mortality will still have a chance to obtain the celestial kingdom in the next life the answer is "No". There are terrible people who lived in mortality who will be unable to reach the celestial kingdom even though they hear the gospel for the first time in the world of spirits. 

 

If you do believe it will be possible for such people to obtain eternal life, how will they be able to obtain eternal life if spiritual growth in the post-mortal spirit world is extremely limited?

Good people will obtain eternal life largely due to their preparation before mortality and the good lives they lived while here. In so doing they prepared their spirit to accept the truth. Such is the case with Alvin, who would have accepted the gospel with all his heart if he had been permitted to tarry. But again, there are no massive leaps of progression in the spirit world.

 

For this second group who were very wicked during this life they will not obtain eternal life because they will be unable to make the needed progression in the world of spirits.

 

Why does the Church allow members to perform all the ordinances of the temple -- including endowments and dealings -- for nonmember parents, grandparents and ancestors who were known to have lived lives of wickedness on the earth without ever repenting or asking for forgiveness before death?

One reason is that we want to give the benefit of the doubt to those who have passed on since our knowledge of their condition is limited. Joseph F. Smith (the same who wrote section 138) was aware of this, as president of the church he said, "“There is, no doubt, great leniency given to people who are anxious to do the work for their dead, and in some instances very unworthy people may have the work done for them; it does not follow, however, that they will receive any benefit therefrom, and the correct thing is to do the work only for those of whom we have the testimony that they will receive it. However, we are disposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the dead, as it is better to do the work for many who are unworthy than to neglect one who is worthy.” (“Redemption beyond the Grave,” Improvement Era, December 1901, 147). Note also his comment that the wicked will not receive any benefit from the work done but we want to be lenient to those living.

 

As to your last paragraph: you have said that after death the spirits of men no longer exist in a fallen state. So what would you call the state of the wicked who are in "darkness" and "the bondage of sin" (Joseph F. Smith's words) in the post-mortal spirit world?

The spirit world is not in a fallen state like our mortal earth. Yes there are people who are in "darkness" and "bondage of sin" but that is due to their choices in mortality and not due to some inherent depraved state of the spirit world itself.

[Ahab]

The spirit world is not in a fallen state like our mortal earth. Yes there are people who are in "darkness" and "bondage of sin" but that is due to their choices in mortality and not due to some inherent depraved state of the spirit world itself.

no fallen or depraved state like Nevada, you mean?

I think we agree. I don't envision a building in the spirit world set apart as a prison where all of the bad people are sent. The Lord refers to some spirits in prison, not a spirit prison, a state of mind/spirit rather than a geographical state with some prison building.

Some people simply shut themselves off to all the good they could be experiencing, just as some people shut themselves off to experiencing evil except when trying to help evil-disposed people.

[Bobbieaware]

Certainly many who hear the gospel for the first time in the spirit world will be able to obtain eternal life.

Now, if your asking if any and all of those who have never heard the gospel in mortality will still have a chance to obtain the celestial kingdom in the next life the answer is "No". There are terrible people who lived in mortality who will be unable to reach the celestial kingdom even though they hear the gospel for the first time in the world of spirits.

Good people will obtain eternal life largely due to their preparation before mortality and the good lives they lived while here. In so doing they prepared their spirit to accept the truth. Such is the case with Alvin, who would have accepted the gospel with all his heart if he had been permitted to tarry. But again, there are no massive leaps of progression in the spirit world.

For this second group who were very wicked during this life they will not obtain eternal life because they will be unable to make the needed progression in the world of spirits.

One reason is that we want to give the benefit of the doubt to those who have passed on since our knowledge of their condition is limited. Joseph F. Smith (the same who wrote section 138) was aware of this, as president of the church he said, "“There is, no doubt, great leniency given to people who are anxious to do the work for their dead, and in some instances very unworthy people may have the work done for them; it does not follow, however, that they will receive any benefit therefrom, and the correct thing is to do the work only for those of whom we have the testimony that they will receive it. However, we are disposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the dead, as it is better to do the work for many who are unworthy than to neglect one who is worthy.” (“Redemption beyond the Grave,” Improvement Era, December 1901, 147). Note also his comment that the wicked will not receive any benefit from the work done but we want to be lenient to those living.

The spirit world is not in a fallen state like our mortal earth. Yes there are people who are in "darkness" and "bondage of sin" but that is due to their choices in mortality and not due to some inherent depraved state of the spirit world itself.

If life for the departed spirits in hell, where they are spiritually dead and unforgiven, isn't an existence in a fallen state, then there is no fallen state. For those spirits in hell who have suffered the death of the body (the prophet Jacob's first effect of the fall) and the death of the spirit (Jacob's second effect of the fall), they are as spiritually dead as one can get. Would you dare to say that just because the devils in hell are spirits that they are not existing in a fallen state? And would you dare to say that just because the sons of perdition in hell will have resurrected bodies that they won't also be living in a fallen state? Remember, the devil and his followers suffered a fall of their own -- spiritual death -- even though their spirits were never born into fallen physical bodies (... Is fallen, is fallen, a son of the morning is fallen).

A question: Why are the sons of perdition considered to be in a lost and fallen state if after the last resurrection they wifi no longer have fallen mortal bodies but have resurrected spiritual bodies?

If extreme wickedness in mortality is the dealbreaker when it comes to whether or not someone is able to obtain eternal life, why is it right and fair that Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah -- whom the Book of Mormon says were "the very vilest of sinners" (Alma himself says he was guilty of murder) -- were given the opportunity to repent and gain eternal life? In addition to the apparent extreme injustice of allowing such vile sinners to get "get off the hook" when they had ruined so many lives, why is it that others, who are not nearly as wicked as they were, are deprived of the opportunity to obtain eternal life just because God didn't send to them a mighty rebuking angel before they died. Why is it that Alma and the sons of Mosiah were able to totally escape from the grave consequences of their own most depraved sinfulness through their faith in Christ, but lesser sinners, who encounter no rebuking angel of salvation, are not afforded the same opportunity to exercise similar faith in the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ just because they died before they had the chance to have a similar divine intervention of saving grace?

P.S. It looks like you ignored the quotes I supplied from the Church leaders and scholars who say life in the spirit world is a continuation of the mortal probation.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[VideoGameJunkie]

Bobbie, I think it's because Heavenly Father knows people like Alma the younger would change for the better so He sent angels to help steer the right way. I've been steered the right way many times after falling off the path and I'm thankful every time for it.

[Bobbieaware]

Bobbie, I think it's because Heavenly Father knows people like Alma the younger would change for the better so He sent angels to help steer the right way. I've been st

eered the right way many times after falling off the path and I'm thankful every time for it.

These are perfectly valid points of which I'm very well aware. But here is the essence of my argument: The 138th section of the D&C was inspired by a simple but profound declaration made by the apostle Peter. He said that the Gospel is preached to the spirits of the dead -- including the spirits of those who rejected the preaching of the Gospel in the days of Noah -- that they might be judged as if they are still living in the flesh based on how faithfully they live according to the principles of the Gospel in the spirit world. But If janderich is correct, and there's almost nothing that can be accomplished as spirits in the post-mortal spirit world, how in the world can the spirits of the dead be judged as if they are still living in the flesh if there is almost nothing meaningful that can be accomplished by the spirits of the dead when compared to what can be accomplished by men who are living in the flesh? Why would Peter say the spirits of the dead can live the Gospel in the spirit world so that they can be judged as if they are still living in the flesh if there is such a huge disparity between what can be accomplished in the fleshly and spiritual realms? It doesn't make sense that Peter would say what he said if janderich is correct.

In addition, is it not true that there must have been enough to challenge the spirits in the ore-earth spirit existence for those spirits to be able to prove themselves (think the war in heaven) and also to show themselves worthy of being numbered among the noble and great spirits who were foreordained to become the leaders of God's kingdom on earth? If almost nothing of value can be accomplished by unembodied spirits, how on earth did the noble and great ones prove themselves worthy as spirits? In fact, the very words 'noble' and 'great' presuppose there were great challenges to overcome in the spirit world in order for those spirits to be rightly Identified as being noble and great. How does one explain the following excerpt from D&C 138 if spirits are not able to perform great acts of faith against adversity?

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other CHOICE spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fulness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work,

54 Including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the dead, were also in the spirit world.

55 I observed that they were also among the NOBLE and GREAT ones who were CHOSEN in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were PREPARED to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. (D&C 138)

Bottom line? Peter would not have taught that the dead can live meaningful Gospel-oriented lives in the spirit world, lives that enable them to be judged as if they are still living in the flesh, if it was not so.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[janderich]

These are perfectly valid points of which I'm very well aware. But here is the essence of my argument: The 138th section of the D&C was inspired by a simple but profound declaration made by the apostle Peter. He said that the Gospel is preached to the spirits of the dead -- including the spirits of those who rejected the preaching of the Gospel in the days of Noah -- that they might be judged as if they are still living in the flesh based on how faithfully they live according to the principles of the Gospel in the spirit world. But If janderich is correct, and there's almost nothing that can be accomplished as spirits in the post-mortal spirit world, how in the world can the spirits of the dead be judged as if they are still living in the flesh if there is almost nothing meaningful that can be accomplished by the spirits of the dead when compared to what can be accomplished by men who are living in the flesh? Why would Peter say the spirits of the dead can live the Gospel in the spirit world so that they can be judged as if they are still living in the flesh if there is such a huge disparity between what can be accomplished in the fleshly and spiritual realms? It doesn't make sense that Peter would say what he said if janderich is correct.

 

....

Bottom line? Peter would not have taught that the dead can live meaningful Gospel-oriented lives in the spirit world, lives that enable them to be judged as if they are still living in the flesh, if it was not so.

I believe you have misinterpreted I Peter 4:6. I suggest you study 1 Peter 3:13 to 4:6 to understand his meaning. His point is not that the dead are judged in the spirit world as if they are still living in the flesh. Rather, his point is that according to the spirit we live by God's standards, even though in the flesh men may judge us by human standards.  

 

This is why Peter asks the believers to follow God's will even though they are being persecuted for it. Because though the wicked will heap abuse on them while in the flesh, they will not be judged according to such men's judgement, but according to God in the spirit. For this very reason the gospel is being preached to the dead, that all men might be justly judged by God according to the spirit. 

[Bobbieaware]

I believe you have misinterpreted I Peter 4:6. I suggest you study 1 Peter 3:13 to 4:6 to understand his meaning. His point is not that the dead are judged in the spirit world as if they are still living in the flesh. Rather, his point is that according to the spirit we live by God's standards, even though in the flesh men may judge us by human standards.  

 

This is why Peter asks the believers to follow God's will even though they are being persecuted for it. Because though the wicked will heap abuse on them while in the flesh, they will not be judged according to such men's judgement, but according to God in the spirit. For this very reason the gospel is being preached to the dead, that all men might be justly judged by God according to the spirit.

This makes absolutely no sense. Do you realize your interpretation of Peter's teachings is very similar to the kind of faulty interpretations the non-LDS Christians give in order to explain away the LDS belief in salvation for the dead? President Joseph F. Smith was inspired to receive his vision on the salvation of the dead by Peter's teachings because he wanted to know more precisely why and how the dead receive the Gospel and live by its principles while in the spirit world. And according to the vision, the reason why the dead are judged as if they are still living in the flesh is because they are taught that while in the world of spirits they are expected to exercise faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice, accept the ordinance of baptism for a remission of their sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost so that they might be inspired and empowered to live godly lives while in the world of spirits. By accepting and abiding by the principles of the Gospel in the spirit world, the dead are judged by the same standards expected of those who live in the flesh. D$C 138 makes all of this wonderful doctrine very clear in easy to understand language,

I'm about ready to end our dialogue because, from my point of view, your understanding and my understanding of the doctrines pertaining to the salvation of the dead cannot be harmonized.

[Bobbieaware]

I believe you have misinterpreted I Peter 4:6. I suggest you study 1 Peter 3:13 to 4:6 to understand his meaning. His point is not that the dead are judged in the spirit world as if they are still living in the flesh. Rather, his point is that according to the spirit we live by God's standards, even though in the flesh men may judge us by human standards.

This is why Peter asks the believers to follow God's will even though they are being persecuted for it. Because though the wicked will heap abuse on them while in the flesh, they will not be judged according to such men's judgement, but according to God in the spirit. For this very reason the gospel is being preached to the dead, that all men might be justly judged by God according to the spirit.

President Smith makes the points I made in my previous post very plain and easy to understand:

33 These (the dead in the spirit world, not those still living in the flesh) were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know IN ORDER TO QUALIFY THEMSELVES that they (the dead in the spirit world) might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (D&C 138)

Edited August 13, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[carbon dioxide]

The use of Amulek in this discussion may be out of context.

 

Amulek was speaking to members of the Lords Church, those already under covenant. His warning to them not to procrastinate the day of their repentance unto the end, had more to them not living up to those covenants that they had already entered into. I look at this as an applicable warning to myself, who has already made covenants, in and out of the temple.

I would agree.  The spirit world is more than simply paradise and prison.  There may be more divisions in the spirit world than we realize.

 

"I do not believe the ...doctrine of sending honest men and noble-minded men to hell, along with the murder and the adulterer...I will send men to preach to them in prison and save them if I can." (Joseph Smith HC 6:365)

 

"Now let us come to still inferior glories. I have mentioned those who inherit the glory of the stars. Who are they? They are not the heathen, for they come up higher—into the terrestrial glory. Who are they, then, who are permitted only to inherit a glory typified by the stars? They are the general world of mankind, those who have heard the Gospel of the Son of God but have not obeyed it. They are to be punished. How long? Until Jesus has reigned here on the earth a thousand years. How much longer? Until the "little season" has passed away after the end of the thousand years, and then when the final end shall come and the trump of God shall sound, and the great white throne shall appear and the heaven and the earth shall flee away; when that time shall come, the sound of the trump shall call forth those sleeping millions of all ages, generations and nations who have heard the sound of the Gospel and have not obeyed it, but until then their bodies must sleep. They are not worthy of the first resurrection." "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection, for on such the second death has no power." But, those who will not give heed to the law of the Gospel have no claim on this first resurrection, and their bodies must sleep through all these long centuries that are to intervene between the time of their death and the end of the earth. Where will their spirits be all that time? Not in any glory; they cannot inherit a glory until their punishment is past. They are not permitted to enter into prison. A great many people, and perhaps some of the Latter-day Saints, have supposed that these characters will go into prison. I do not know of any revelation anywhere intimating that any one of this class of persons will ever be put in prison. Where do they go? To another place altogether different from a prison. A prison is designed for those who never heard the Gospel here in the flesh, but yet have committed a few sins without the knowledge of the revealed law, and who have to be beaten with few stripes in prison. But these persons who hear the Gospel, as the nations of the present dispensation are doing, can not go to prison, it is not their place. They fall below a prison, into outer darkness or hell, where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There they have to remain with the devil and his angels in torment and misery until the final end, then they come forth."  Orson Pratt JOD 15:322)

Edited August 14, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Bobbieaware]

I would agree. The spirit world is more than simply paradise and prison. There may be more divisions in the spirit world than we realize.

"I do not believe the ...doctrine of sending honest men and noble-minded men to hell, along with the murder and the adulterer...I will send men to preach to them in prison and save them if I can." (Joseph Smith HC 6:365)

"Now let us come to still inferior glories. I have mentioned those who inherit the glory of the stars. Who are they? They are not the heathen, for they come up higher—into the terrestrial glory. Who are they, then, who are permitted only to inherit a glory typified by the stars? They are the general world of mankind, those who have heard the Gospel of the Son of God but have not obeyed it. They are to be punished. How long? Until Jesus has reigned here on the earth a thousand years. How much longer? Until the "little season" has passed away after the end of the thousand years, and then when the final end shall come and the trump of God shall sound, and the great white throne shall appear and the heaven and the earth shall flee away; when that time shall come, the sound of the trump shall call forth those sleeping millions of all ages, generations and nations who have heard the sound of the Gospel and have not obeyed it, but until then their bodies must sleep. They are not worthy of the first resurrection." "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection, for on such the second death has no power." But, those who will not give heed to the law of the Gospel have no claim on this first resurrection, and their bodies must sleep through all these long centuries that are to intervene between the time of their death and the end of the earth. Where will their spirits be all that time? Not in any glory; they cannot inherit a glory until their punishment is past. They are not permitted to enter into prison. A great many people, and perhaps some of the Latter-day Saints, have supposed that these characters will go into prison. I do not know of any revelation anywhere intimating that any one of this class of persons will ever be put in prison. Where do they go? To another place altogether different from a prison. A prison is designed for those who never heard the Gospel here in the flesh, but yet have committed a few sins without the knowledge of the revealed law, and who have to be beaten with few stripes in prison. But these persons who hear the Gospel, as the nations of the present dispensation are doing, can not go to prison, it is not their place. They fall below a prison, into outer darkness or hell, where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There they have to remain with the devil and his angels in torment and misery until the final end, then they come forth." Orson Pratt JOD 15:322)

I enjoyed reading Orson Pratt"s words. But there's only one problem, his ideas are out of harmony with the 138th section of the D&C, and canonized scripture trumps something that's not a part of the standard works, Before D&C 138 was made part of the standard works in 1981, I was quite familiar with it and remember thinking that if the vision was ever made part of the LDS canon it would be a doctrinal deal breaker. D&C 138 clearly states that ALL the wicked who rejected or rebelled against the Gospel, even including the desperately wicked who were ripened in iniquity and rejected the Gospel message in the days Noah, are in the spirit prison -- not Orson Pratts outer darkness -- and they will be taught or retaugh (yes, retaugh) the gospel and its ordinances, and through this means have access to repentance, a remission of their sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost and a salvation in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions of glory. It would be interesting if you would carefully reread D&C 138 and then let me know if you can find a way to harmonize Orson Pratt's statement with President Smith's canonized revelation.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[janderich]

This makes absolutely no sense. Do you realize your interpretation of Peter's teachings is very similar to the kind of faulty interpretations the non-LDS Christians give in order to explain away the LDS belief in salvation for the dead? President Joseph F. Smith was inspired to receive his vision on the salvation of the dead by Peter's teachings because he wanted to know more precisely why and how the dead receive the Gospel and live by its principles while in the spirit world. And according to the vision, the reason why the dead are judged as if they are still living in the flesh is because they are taught that while in the world of spirits they are expected to exercise faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice, accept the ordinance of baptism for a remission of their sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost so that they might be inspired and empowered to live godly lives while in the world of spirits. By accepting and abiding by the principles of the Gospel in the spirit world, the dead are judged by the same standards expected of those who live in the flesh. D$C 138 makes all of this wonderful doctrine very clear in easy to understand language,

I'm about ready to end our dialogue because, from my point of view, your understanding and my understanding of the doctrines pertaining to the salvation of the dead cannot be harmonized.

Of course it makes sense. And it does not explain away salvation for the dead.

 

Paul is not telling us that the dead will be judged according to the flesh. This would be completely wrong, and God has never made that promise. There is no justice in the flesh. You are living in the flesh now and do you not see that judgment in the flesh is inherently unjust?

 

Rather Paul's words explain why we are all justly judged according to the spirit and not the flesh. It is because of this very fact that all God's commandments are spiritual and not temporal as he himself has said, "Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created" (D&C 29:34). It is because he judges us according to the spirit, that the gospel must be preached to the spirits in prison. For if all men did not hear the gospel in the spirit they would not receive a just judgment. If it were not so, God would be a partial God. Therefore, we must live according to the spirit both in this life and the next.

 

[Bobbieaware]

Of course it makes sense. And it does not explain away salvation for the dead.

Paul is not telling us that the dead will be judged according to the flesh. This would be completely wrong, and God has never made that promise. There is no justice in the flesh. You are living in the flesh now and do you not see that judgment in the flesh is inherently unjust?

Rather Paul's words explain why we are all justly judged according to the spirit and not the flesh. It is because of this very fact that all God's commandments are spiritual and not temporal as he himself has said, "Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created" (D&C 29:34). It is because he judges us according to the spirit, that the gospel must be preached to the spirits in prison. For if all men did not hear the gospel in the spirit they would not receive a just judgment. If it were not so, God would be a partial God. Therefore, we must live according to the spirit both in this life and the next.

I'm sorry, I presumed you were a member of the LDS Church but I now realize you're probably not. We've probably been "banging heads" unnecessarily. The other possibility is that you are a member but you've been pulling my leg and you're a prankster. Are you? Please admit it if you are because I don't want to play this game any more.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

Of course it makes sense. And it does not explain away salvation for the dead.

Paul is not telling us that the dead will be judged according to the flesh. This would be completely wrong, and God has never made that promise. There is no justice in the flesh. You are living in the flesh now and do you not see that judgment in the flesh is inherently unjust?

Rather Paul's words explain why we are all justly judged according to the spirit and not the flesh. It is because of this very fact that all God's commandments are spiritual and not temporal as he himself has said, "Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created" (D&C 29:34). It is because he judges us according to the spirit, that the gospel must be preached to the spirits in prison. For if all men did not hear the gospel in the spirit they would not receive a just judgment. If it were not so, God would be a partial God. Therefore, we must live according to the spirit both in this life and the next.

In the event that you are a member of the LDS Church and you're not pulling my leg, let's see if we can end our discussion on a positive note of agreement? I'll quote four verses from D&C 138 and ask you a question after each quoted verse. If you can answer each of my four questions in the affirmative, then I say we end our discussion on a high note...

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

Do you agree that the spirits in the post-mortal spirit prison are taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that they can be liberated from the confines of the spirit prison if they accept the Gospel and repent of their sins, including the sins they committed while in the flesh?

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

Do you agreethat verse 31's liberating Gospel message is given both to those inhabitants of the spirit prison who never heard the Gospel while in the flesh, as well as to those inhabitants of the spirit prison who heard but rejected the Gospel message while in the flesh?

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

Do you believe the inhabitants of the post-mortal spirit prison are able to come to believe the Gospel while there, even though they may have rejected it while in the flesh; repent of their sins while there, even though they chose not to repent while in the flesh; accept the ordinance of baptism while there, even though they refused it while in the flesh; receive the spiritual enlightenment and empowerment of the gift of the Holy Ghost while there, even though they refused that and all the other Gospel blessings blessing while in the flesh?

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to QUALIFY THEMSELVES that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Do you believe that through the acceptance of the Gospel, and living by its precepts, the inhabitants of the post-mortal spirit world are able to qualify themselves for greater blessings in the resurrection than they would have received if they never chose to accept the Gospel and live by its precepts while in the world of the dead?

I propose that if you agree with the above statements let's end on a high note and just agree to disagree on the rest.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[janderich]

In the event that you are a member of the LDS Church and you're not pulling my leg,...

Of course I'm a member. I have not spent pages and pages discussing with you as a joke. You need to give me more credit than that.

...let's see if we can end our discussion on a positive note of agreement? I'll quote four verses from D&C 138 and ask you a question after each quote verse. If you can answer each of my four questions in t he affirmative, then I say we end our discussion on a high note...

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

Do you agree that the spirits in the post-mortal spirit prison are taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that they can be liberated from the confines of the spirit prison if they accept the Gospel and repent of their sins, including the sins they committed while in the flesh?

Yes, in as much as they are willing to repent they may accept the gospel. But as James E. Talmage stated, "As the time of repentance is procrastinated, the ability to repent grows weaker; neglect of opportunity in holy things develops inability." (Articles of Faith, p. 104, in section “Repentance Not Always Possible”)

 

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

Do you agree that verse 31's liberating Gospel message is given both to those inhabitants of the spirit prison who never heard the Gospel while in the flesh, as well as to those inhabitants of the spirit prison who heard but rejected the Gospel message while in the flesh?

No doubt the gospel message will be offered to everyone who is able to accept it.

 

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

Do you believe the inhabitants of the post-mortal spirit prison are able to come to believe the Gospel while there, even though they may have rejected it while in the flesh; repent of their sins while there, even though they chose not to repent while in the flesh; accept the ordinance of baptism while there, even though they refused it while in the flesh; receive the spiritual enlightenment and empowerment of the gift of the Holy Ghost while there, even though they refused that and all the other Gospel blessings blessing while in the flesh?

No, if they were offered the gospel in the flesh and knowingly rejected it they will not, in the world of spirits, receive all the blessings given to the faithful. Even Joseph F. Smith made this clear, "Let me say in explanation that Alma is evidently speaking to those who have received a knowledge of the gospel or the plan of salvation, as would appear by the 27th verse of the 9th chapter of Second Nephi: "But wo unto him that has the law given; yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!" Now, it is evident that such as these have no chance for redemption, no matter what may be done for them in hope or by faith, for they will have sinned against light and knowledge, and are, therefore, worthy of damnation. It is nowhere revealed that such as these will ever be forgiven, although we are informed that all of God's judgments are not given unto men." (Improvement Era Vol. 5, Dec 1901, italics added)

 

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to QUALIFY THEMSELVES that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Do you believe through the acceptance of the Gospel, and living by its precepts, that the inhabitants of the post-mortal spirit world are able to qualify themselves for greater blessings in the resurrection than they would have received if the never chose to accept the Gospel and live by its precepts while in the world of the dead?

Yes

 

I propose that if you agree with the above statements let's end on a high note and just agree to disagree on the rest.

I think based on my answers given above we may end the discussion. If you take only one thing from our discussion take this: this mortal realm is the time for men to prepare to meet God. 

[Bobbieaware]

Of course I'm a member. I have not spent pages and pages discussing with you as a joke. You need to give me more credit than that.

Yes, in as much as they are willing to repent they may accept the gospel. But as James E. Talmage stated, "As the time of repentance is procrastinated, the ability to repent grows weaker; neglect of opportunity in holy things develops inability." (Articles of Faith, p. 104, in section “Repentance Not Always Possible”)

No doubt the gospel message will be offered to everyone who is able to accept it.

No, if they were offered the gospel in the flesh and knowingly rejected it they will not, in the world of spirits, receive all the blessings given to the faithful. Even Joseph F. Smith made this clear, "Let me say in explanation that Alma is evidently speaking to those who have received a knowledge of the gospel or the plan of salvation, as would appear by the 27th verse of the 9th chapter of Second Nephi: "But wo unto him that has the law given; yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!" Now, it is evident that such as these have no chance for redemption, no matter what may be done for them in hope or by faith, for they will have sinned against light and knowledge, and are, therefore, worthy of damnation. It is nowhere revealed that such as these will ever be forgiven, although we are informed that all of God's judgments are not given unto men." (Improvement Era Vol. 5, Dec 1901, italics added)

Yes

I think based on my answers given above we may end the discussion. If you take only one thing from our discussion take this: this mortal realm is the time for men to prepare to meet God.

Now I agree it's undeniably true it becomes more and more difficult for the once greatly enlightened to repent when they turn away from the truth. This is why there are the sons of perdition, who eventually arrive at a point where they are unable to repent. But the sons of perdition are fully accountable and worthy of their condemnation because they arrived at the stature of a fully-enlightened prophet in their own right, and then sinned against the undeniable light of truth at noonday. There are very few among us who arrive at this point of tremendous enlightenment, sanctification, righteousness and accountability.

But to me the story of Alma the younger is the dealbreaker that lets me know it's likely it will one day be revealed God is more merciful than we now realize (remember, the prophet Joseph Smith said there was much more to add to D&C 76, but he was forbidden of God to reveal all he knew). Alma was raised by a father who was a prophet of God, but despite this fact he became one of the very vilest of sinners. And according to his own word committed murder or, as he also put it, "led many souls to destruction. If there was a hope of eternal life for Alma, because he had not yet arrived at the point of accountability of a son of perdition (although it must be noted that his sins were serious enough and he was accountable enough to be thrust into his own private hell for 3 days and 3 nights), then I believe it's likely there will be other such examples of individuals with great faith who will overcome the odds in the spirit world and inherit eternal life after rejecting the message on in the flesh. But I believe it's possible the Lord hasn't clearly revealed this kind of knowledge to the world as yet because he doesn't want some of us to foolishly think it will be easy to repent in the spirit world and inherit eternal life.

But in the end it all boils down to accountability. And it's this very principle of accoutabilty that always causes me to wonder why Alma was accountable enough to suffer the exquisite pains of an everlasting hell, yet he not only escaped from the hell he deserved because of his murders, but was even able to lay hold on eternal life. For this reason, I've decided to not be dogmatic on this subject and keep an open mind. Even so, I live my life in the flesh with urgency to do and choose the right because I believe I am now nigh unto being as accountable as is a prophet of God. And it is for reason I know there will be no second chances for me in the spirit world. But there are few who are as accountable as I now am because I have a sure knowledge that the restored Gospel is true.

All the best to you till we may spar again. If you respond to this, I'll give your the last word.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Ahab]

Read what Talmage and Alma said, again. They don't say something like ...and then they repented. They're talking about people who do not repent while having light and knowledge that they have sinned against the laws of God.

Of course their state is awful, because they would not repent.

And the days of our probation, and of our mortality, include our time in the so-called spirit world. Our flesh doesn't become immortal until we are resurrected in it.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Ahab

[Bobbieaware]

Read what Talmage and Nephi said, again. They're talking about people who do not repent while having light and knowledge that they have sinned against the laws of God.

Of course their state is awful, because they would not repent.

And the days of our probation, and of our mortality, include our time in the so-called spirit world. Our flesh doesn't become immortal until we are resurrected in it.

I addressed these issues with my remarks on the son's of perdition, the salvation of Alma the younger, and the role of accountability. I agree with you about our mortal probation continuing in the spirit world. My belief is that as long as their are temples and proxies who do ordinance work for the dead, at least as far as the laws of justice and mercy are concerned, deceased persons are still, in technical sense, in the flesh. This is why as far the law of the Lord is concerned, spirits who are baptized by proxy are quite literally considered to have baptized in the flesh. Ann it must be this way because baptism can only be performed and submitted to by individuals who have mortal bodies. So when an individual is baptized for the dead in one of our temples, technically speaking, it is a deceased individual who is being baptized in the flesh and not the proxy.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Ahab]

I addressed these issues with my remarks on the son's of perdition, the salvation of Alma the younger, and the role of accountability. I agree with you about our mortal probation continuing in the spirit world. My belief is that as long as their are temples and proxies who do ordinance work for the dead, at least as far as the laws of justice and mercy are concerned, deceased persons are still, in technical sense, in the flesh. This is why as far the law of the Lord is concerned, spirits who are baptized by proxy are quite literally considered to have beenbaptized in the flesh. An it must be this way because baptism can only be performed and submitted to by individuals who have mortal bodies. So when an individual is baptized for the dead in one of our temples, technically speaking, it is a deceased individual who is being baptized in the flesh and not the proxy.

Yes I know that was your point, and I agree.

My point was to point out what Alma and Talmage were talking about when saying people are in an awful state when they sin against light and knowledge of the laws of God ...and do not repent. The ...and they do not repent part is what makes their situation awful.

[Bobbieaware]

Yes I know that was your point, and I agree.

My point was to point out what Alma and Talmage were talking about when saying people are in an awful state when they sin against light and knowledge of the laws of God ...and do not repent. The ...and they do not repent part is what makes their situation awful.

The fate of the son of perdition epitomizes and powerfully validates a holy principle. And that principle is that in direct proportion to the amount of spiritual light which one possesses, the greater and greater the danger of falling from grace and losing the light if one does not continue to magnify and remain true to the degree of spiritual enlightenment he possesses. This is why the 93rd section of the D&C says we will grow from grace to grace (to greater and greater degrees of divine capacitation) as we continue to give away, through service, divine grace commensurate to the spiritual light and empowerment we have received.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bobbieaware