Church, Agency And Consequences

[KevinG]

When anyone argues that the Church or its various facets (BYU, Priesthood Quorums, Relief Society, Wards, Stakes, etc.) restrict or deny members choice I am want to remind them that the whole program,

• Church Membership
• Belief
• Programs and Policy
• Attendance
• Donations

Is VOLUNTARY.

 

Perhaps my status as a convert colors my view.  But even when it is a 7 generation family tradition (and understandably hard to oppose), Mormonism or more specifically membership and obedience to the doctrines and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is voluntary.

 

 

Arguing that constitutional freedoms, agency, choice, freedom of association, etc. has been denied or restricted by voluntary membership in a religious organization is an argument built on a false premise.  It is lazy or perhaps sloppy to blame the church for ones actions.  No less lazy or sloppy than saying "the devil made me do it".

 

Changing one's membership is a social risk, but as a convert one I know can be survived and even lead to thriving.  Is there any valid reason an individual or group should use coercive techniques to solicit changing the church from the outside, vs councils and prayer to elicit change or greater understanding for the church organization and individuals alike?

 

In short knowing you have a choice about affiliation why ask the organization to bend to your will?

 

[Mormonmaniac]

My view is that by following the church guidelines and principles one is led to a greater capacity of agency and freedom. So, it seems indeed counterproductive that fringe groups fight to change church policy in the name of "freedom" when in reality the very principles they fight for are the ones that lead to captivity and destruction ( a loss of ones agency.

Not really sure why these fringe groups are so adamite about forcing their will on others rather than just walk away and go do their own thing.

[KevinG]

Not really sure why these fringe groups are so adamite about forcing their will on others rather than just walk away and go do their own thing.

 

I have asked this before.  Responses ranged from taking offense, to the fact that family and friend ties prevented them from leaving.

 

The relationship angle is one I'm sympathetic with to a point because I risked relationships to convert to Mormonism.  But I did take the risk so I do see it as an excuse as much as a reason.

 

I'm often astonished at those who decide to join an organization and then ask it to change for them.  Even more so those who won't join, and still want the organization to bend to their personal preferences.  Scott used the term "entitlement generation" on another thread and was chastised for it.  Yet this is an ugly facet of today's culture.

[Ahab]

When anyone argues that the Church or its various facets (BYU, Priesthood Quorums, Relief Society, Wards, Stakes, etc.) restrict or deny members choice I am want to remind them that the whole program,

• Church Membership
• Belief
• Programs and Policy
• Attendance
• Donations

Is VOLUNTARY.

Perhaps my status as a convert colors my view. But even when it is a 7 generation family tradition (and understandably hard to oppose), Mormonism or more specifically membership and obedience to the doctrines and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is voluntary.

Arguing that constitutional freedoms, agency, choice, freedom of association, etc. has been denied or restricted by voluntary membership in a religious organization is an argument built on a false premise. It is lazy or perhaps sloppy to blame the church for ones actions. No less lazy or sloppy than saying "the devil made me do it".

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, or that you understand what they mean. Yes our membership in the Church is voluntary but to be a member in good standing we are asked to give up certain rights and freedoms allowed by secular law. And we can be excommunicated if we do not measure up. Okay with me because I accept the Church standards but if I didn't agree I might want to recommend that the Church change its standards rather than me having to change mine to remain a member.

Changing one's membership is a social risk, but as a convert one I know can be survived and even lead to thriving. Is there any valid reason an individual or group should use coercive techniques to solicit changing the church from the outside, vs councils and prayer to elicit change or greater understanding for the church organization and individuals alike?

Not that I see unless personal preference is a valid reason.

In short knowing you have a choice about affiliation why ask the organization to bend to your will?

Those who do usually have the idea that they are trying to improve the organization by what they think of as improvements. I think they're trying to be leaders when they should be followers. Time will tell.

[jkwilliams]

Speaking for myself only, I internalized a lot of fear and shame and guilt from the teachings and practices of the church, which definitely inhibited my ability to make reasoned and informed choices. 

[KevinG]

Speaking for myself only, I internalized a lot of fear and shame and guilt from the teachings and practices of the church, which definitely inhibited my ability to make reasoned and informed choices. 

 

This could easily turn to a conversation about how to teach and how not to teach agency and self-determination to our children.  I think there might be some value in exploring that dynamic.  

 

At what point does indoctrination go from being a positive sharing of values to a (you're going to love my use this next word) coercive approach that stunts an individuals agency?  If a child was not raised with an appreciation of agency, which I have seen in anti- as well as TBM families, at what point in their development are they responsible for their own mature choices?

 

I think it is telling that some who were raised with little or no respect for their agency (i.e. The don't embarrass us approach to growing up in the church...) are sometimes the most adamantly opposed to how the church operates.  A dogmatic adherent can quickly turn into a dogmatic critic.

[jkwilliams]

This could easily turn to a conversation about how to teach and how not to teach agency and self-determination to our children.  I think there might be some value in exploring that dynamic.  

 

At what point does indoctrination go from being a positive sharing of values to a (you're going to love my use this next word) coercive approach that stunts an individuals agency?  If a child was not raised with an appreciation of agency, which I have seen in anti- as well as TBM families, at what point in their development are they responsible for their own mature choices?

 

I think it is telling that some who were raised with little or no respect for their agency (i.e. The don't embarrass us approach to growing up in the church...) are sometimes the most adamantly opposed to how the church operates.  A dogmatic adherent can quickly turn into a dogmatic critic.

 

I knew all about agency, and I was never told I couldn't choose for myself, so what you're describing is not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that when you have so much baggage bound up in your decisions, it's less free. And I certainly don't think of myself as dogmatic. I'm wrong all the time, and I'm happy to admit it when I am.

Edited July 23, 2015 by jkwilliams

[KevinG]

I knew all about agency, and I was never told I couldn't choose for myself, so what you're describing is not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that when you have so much baggage bound up in your decisions, it's less free.

 

Then I didn't communicate it well...  what you describe, being bound up by baggage, guilt, culture, etc. to the point that it inhibits choice is exactly the kind of thing that I was trying to describe.

 

If a child at a young age is not allowed to exercise agency how can we expect them to understand that faith and its attendant behaviors are a choice as an adult?

 

To me this would be a condition that would stint someone's ability to remove them-self from an organization they no longer believed in.  Ironically not honoring the churches teaching on agency would be additional proof to someone that the organization was not honest.

[jkwilliams]

Then I didn't communicate it well...  what you describe, being bound up by baggage, guilt, culture, etc. to the point that it inhibits choice is exactly the kind of thing that I was trying to describe.

 

If a child at a young age is not allowed to exercise agency how can we expect them to understand that faith and its attendant behaviors are a choice as an adult?

 

To me this would be a condition that would stint someone's ability to remove them-self from an organization they no longer believed in.  Ironically not honoring the churches teaching on agency would be additional proof to someone that the organization was not honest.

 

I was allowed to exercise agency all my life. I was also taught in church and at home that my choices carried serious consequences, and fear and guilt and shame from those teachings definitely inhibited my ability to make free choices. And yes, I suppose that kind of fear did make it hard for me to leave. Of course, I think the church intends for it to be hard to leave. But I managed to exercise agency and leave. How about that?

[KevinG]

I was allowed to exercise agency all my life. I was also taught in church and at home that my choices carried serious consequences, and fear and guilt and shame from those teachings definitely inhibited my ability to make free choices. And yes, I suppose that kind of fear did make it hard for me to leave. Of course, I think the church intends for it to be hard to leave. But I managed to exercise agency and leave. How about that?

 

I think you have integrity, even if I don't agree with some of your views about the church.

 

Fear has a purpose - to keep us from dangerous situations.

 

Guilt has a purpose - to drive us towards repentance.

 

However fear and guilt used arbitrarily or inappropriately can be damaging to faith, even when someone thinks it is preserving faithfulness.

[jkwilliams]

I think you have integrity, even if I don't agree with some of your views about the church.

 

Fear has a purpose - to keep us from dangerous situations.

 

Guilt has a purpose - to drive us towards repentance.

 

However fear and guilt used arbitrarily or inappropriately can be damaging to faith, even when someone thinks it is preserving faithfulness.

 

I will just say I like myself these days, and I'm comfortable with who I am. I never felt that way in the church. I'm glad it works for you. It did not for me.

[KevinG]

Back to the OP...

 

One plausible explanation is social pressure (family and friends) and affiliation.

 

Another is fear of consequences of leaving being more severe than consequences of asking the organization to change.

 

Others?

[theplains]

Another is fear of consequences of leaving being more severe than consequences of asking the organization to change.

 

As far as I know, there are no negative consequences of asking the LDS organization to change

its policies. Likewise, I think it is a perfect use of agency if some members (who feel led by their

burning in the bosom) challenge leaders when they believe they are being led astray by what

they consider to be false teachings in General Conference and/or church publications.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Avatar4321]

How are you bound up with baggage, guilt, or fear if you use the atonement?

[Broker]

Speaking for myself only, I internalized a lot of fear and shame and guilt from the teachings and practices of the church, which definitely inhibited my ability to make reasoned and informed choices. 

I have the same issue. I have also had periods of shame and guilt and some fear. It definitely limited my ability to use my own reasoning and required me to do things without a complete understanding. The result was predictable:

A great marriage, well-adjusted, happy kids,  and awesome returned missionaries who now have their own great marriages. I'm think one of my current missionary kids is on the verge of being translated.

 

Faith precedes the miracle.

[Broker]

In case that came off as insensitive, it's important to remember the parable of the vineyard workers. It's never too late to come back and claim the same ultimate rewards as everyone else.

[Calm]

I think it is a perfect use of agency if some members (who feel led by their

burning in the bosom) challenge leaders when they believe they are being led astray by what

they consider to be false teachings in General Conference and/or church publications.

Do you believe there are any unique LDS teachings that are not false, given you are not LDS?

[Calm]

How are you bound up with baggage, guilt, or fear if you use the atonement?

You are only just learning how to use it, not using it perfectly yet.

 

I have some baggage, guilt and fear pertaining to my family (can't think of anything in regards to the Church) which I picked up as a kid until I left home and was on my own.  My parents were not the best communicators or involvers when it came to teaching how to problem solve even if they were fantastic in other ways.  I can recognize where they went wrong and I have corrected tons in not passing it on to my kids, but I still haven't purged the insecure child responding to my parents gut reaction no matter how deep in self analysis and changing external behavior and attempting to change internal thoughts I go.  I figure the only way I am going to grind that out of my system is going to be through the Atonement, but either I haven't figured how to access it yet or the Lord isn't blessing me yet in that specific area because I need to learn a bit more from it.

Edited July 24, 2015 by calmoriah

[Bobbieaware]

How are you bound up with baggage, guilt, or fear if you use the atonement?

That's the problem. Without even realizing it, some Latter-day Saints end up living in a sort of hybrid Mosaic Law version of Mormonism where they find themselves spiritually stymied at every turn by a counterproductive salvation by works state of mind. So the members who become enmeshed in this false approach to the Gospel never feel forgiven because, strangely enough, the never feel worthy enough to be forgiven. So they live joyless lives as members of the Church because they never experience the peace of mind that comes with being forgiven and comforted.

I believe this false approach to understanding and living the Gospel usually starts with well-meaning but misinformed parents who don't properly explain to their children that the Gospel is primarily a message of mercy and compassion. By employing a letter of the law approach to parenting they leave their children with the false impression that Gid is a cruel and overly demanding taskmaster. So when these kids grow up and turn away from the Church they think they're turning away from Mormonisn, but in reality they are actually turning away from a perverse and wrongheaded version of Mormonism.

[The Nehor]

That's the problem. Without even realizing it, some Latter-day Saints end up living in a sort of hybrid Mosaic Law version of Mormonism where they find themselves spiritually stymied at every turn by a counterproductive salvation by works state of mind. So the members who become enmeshed in this false approach to the Gospel never feel forgiven because, strangely enough, the never feel worthy enough to be forgiven. So they live joyless lives as members of the Church because they never experience the peace of mind that comes with being forgiven and comforted.

I believe this false approach to understanding and living the Gospel usually starts with well-meaning but misinformed parents who don't properly explain to their children that the Gospel is primarily a message of mercy and compassion. By employing a letter of the law approach to parenting they leave their children with the false impression that Gid is a cruel and overly demanding taskmaster. So when these kids grow up and turn away from the Church they think they're turning away from Mormonisn, but in reality they are actually turning away from a perverse and wrongheaded version of Mormonism.

 

The gospel got a bit easier when I realized that being worthy of forgiveness is a nonsensical statement. God does not expect such a thing. Confess and forsake and if you cannot yet forsake keep begging for strength and power and keep confessing until you do. Too many falter when they imagine there is a standard they must reach before help is available instead of realizing that their perfection is as much Christ's responsibility as it is theirs. He can do it and will do it as long as you desire it and do not stop him.

[Joshua Valentine]

That's the problem. Without even realizing it, some Latter-day Saints end up living in a sort of hybrid Mosaic Law version of Mormonism where they find themselves spiritually stymied at every turn by a counterproductive salvation by works state of mind. So the members who become enmeshed in this false approach to the Gospel never feel forgiven because, strangely enough, the never feel worthy enough to be forgiven. So they live joyless lives as members of the Church because they never experience the peace of mind that comes with being forgiven and comforted.

I believe this false approach to understanding and living the Gospel usually starts with well-meaning but misinformed parents who don't properly explain to their children that the Gospel is primarily a message of mercy and compassion. By employing a letter of the law approach to parenting they leave their children with the false impression that Gid is a cruel and overly demanding taskmaster. So when these kids grow up and turn away from the Church they think they're turning away from Mormonisn, but in reality they are actually turning away from a perverse and wrongheaded version of Mormonism.

 

 

The gospel got a bit easier when I realized that being worthy of forgiveness is a nonsensical statement. God does not expect such a thing. Confess and forsake and if you cannot yet forsake keep begging for strength and power and keep confessing until you do. Too many falter when they imagine there is a standard they must reach before help is available instead of realizing that their perfection is as much Christ's responsibility as it is theirs. He can do it and will do it as long as you desire it and do not stop him.

 

I would very much appreciate citations for the version of the LDS Gospel you two are describing?

[KevinG]

As far as I know, there are no negative consequences of asking the LDS organization to change

its policies. Likewise, I think it is a perfect use of agency if some members (who feel led by their

burning in the bosom) challenge leaders when they believe they are being led astray by what

they consider to be false teachings in General Conference and/or church publications.

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

I have questioned policy and procedure and not suffered any negative consequences.  It is not questioning that is a problem.  It is how we question and sometimes oppose.  The greatest example of this in my memory is how the West African Saints appealed to the brethren on race and the priesthood.  They felt inspired and asked the brethren to pray.  Unlike some protest movements that demanded that they were correct and the brethren needed to change based on their demands.

 

There are ways to influence change while respecting the order of the organization you want to change.

[The Nehor]

I would very much appreciate citations for the version of the LDS Gospel you two are describing?

I recommend reading the standard works to start.

[rodheadlee]

I would very much appreciate citations for the version of the LDS Gospel you two are describing?

3 ^aBlessed are the ^bpoor in spirit: for theirs is the ^ckingdom of heaven.

  4 Blessed are they that ^amourn: for they shall be ^bcomforted.

  5 Blessed are the ^ameek: for they shall inherit the ^bearth.

  6 Blessed are they which do ^ahunger and thirst after ^brighteousness: for they shall be filled.

  7 Blessed are the ^amerciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

  8 Blessed are the ^apure in ^bheart: for they shall ^csee God.

  9 Blessed are the ^apeacemakers: for they shall be called the ^bchildren of God.

[HappyJackWagon]

That's the problem. Without even realizing it, some Latter-day Saints end up living in a sort of hybrid Mosaic Law version of Mormonism where they find themselves spiritually stymied at every turn by a counterproductive salvation by works state of mind. So the members who become enmeshed in this false approach to the Gospel never feel forgiven because, strangely enough, the never feel worthy enough to be forgiven. So they live joyless lives as members of the Church because they never experience the peace of mind that comes with being forgiven and comforted.

I believe this false approach to understanding and living the Gospel usually starts with well-meaning but misinformed parents who don't properly explain to their children that the Gospel is primarily a message of mercy and compassion. By employing a letter of the law approach to parenting they leave their children with the false impression that Gid is a cruel and overly demanding taskmaster. So when these kids grow up and turn away from the Church they think they're turning away from Mormonisn, but in reality they are actually turning away from a perverse and wrongheaded version of Mormonism.

BobbieAware, VERY well said. I totally agree which shocks me probably as much as it will shock you.