The Internet: Destroying Dialogue

[Mystery Meat]

I have come to a firm conclusion recently, although it is something I have known for a long time. I have participated in a variety of online forums: sports, politics, video games, and this one. Without exception there is very little good that comes out of my participation (I won't assume to speak for you), and the good that does come is undermined by the crap that comes along with it.

 

Try as I might, these types of place bring out the worst in me, and to be quiet honest, if this is the best that some on this board have to offer then I am sad for humanity.

 

I have asked myself a lot recently what I hope to gain by participating in this board, as this board above all other should be different. Ideally, I come to a board like this hoping to learn something new and to have my own testimony strengthened. Perhaps there is something I can share that helps another. In reality, however, I am not sure that happens all of that much. More often than not, I end up intertwined in arguments or observing bickering between others. 

 

As recently as yesterday we had one poster who can't help but find things wrong with the church admit that he is often snarky and sarcastic, stooping to condescending remarks in regards to other people's positions, and that he does this on purpose. There might be a time and a place for this type of communication, but NEVER when it comes to discussing the Gospel, the Church, its leaders or most especially deity. 

 

Admittedly, my own behavior has at times left much to be desired. In my "righteous zeal" I sometimes get caught up in the moment and take my arguments and accusations too far. When I have done so, I have tried to apologize for my behavior though I am sure there are all too many apologies that were left unsaid. The fact that they needed to be offered and on such a frequent basis says it all, sadly.

 

But as I have participated here, I have come to the conclusion that very few are here to discuss; even fewer are hear to actually learn or have their mind opened and changed. People are hear to make cheap points and to try and change other people's minds. I am not sure I have ever seen those most antagonistic to the Church concede a single point or admit when they are wrong. I am not sure those who are friendly have done it much more (although as a general trend, conceding more and more ground to those opposed or at least more progressive seems to be a recent theme). More often than not, when someone makes a point that another poster doesn't like, they simply ignore it rather than concede a point; when it is brought to the poster's attention they simply say it wasn't relevant and didn't feel the need to respond (or continue to ignore).

 

And so, I have decided that my days posting here and on other internet discussion boards is come to an end. I don't like what it does to me and I don't like what it does to you. I would like to believe that this message board is not what the Church looks like in reality, but participation here has the effect of skewing perceptions. This is not say that I am leaving because you don't agree with me and because you don't I am out; I am leaving first and foremost because of my own behavior. I apologize to those I have offended. I am sure that if we were to meet in person our tone and discussion would have been much different.

 

I plan on following this thread for the next day or so, after that I will move on. I just need to figure out what I am going to do with all of my additional time.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Mystery Meat

[HappyJackWagon]

Good luck, Mystery Meat.

 

I agree. If the board doesn't bring joy or fulfill some meaningful purpose then what's the point.

[jkwilliams]

This might surprise some people, but I think being around these boards has helped me listen better and has worn off some of the rougher edges. Do I expect to change anyone's mind? No. Do I find it fun and interesting to hear and discuss other people's perspectives? Yep. 

 

I wish you well in whatever you decide to do. The bottom line is that you shouldn't do things you feel are harmful to you.

[Mystery Meat]

Good luck, Mystery Meat.

 

I agree. If the board doesn't bring joy or fulfill some meaningful purpose then what's the point.

 

Well played sir, well played.

[Tacenda]

Good for you Mystery Meat, but hopefully you will not completely cut yourself off, maybe when the board becomes better suited for you.

I was just thinking today of closing my FB account. Maybe your saying this will give me incentive. I use to be a reader, now only read FB and discussion boards, how lame is that? But do read a lot of stuff to keep up with my friends on this board somewhat. So what I need to do is have a happy medium.

Good luck in whatever you do! You're not the only poster to have done this. Many have taken breaks or not come back. I miss their input, and will probably miss your posting as well.

[halconero]

I agree, and I feel that it's been the choice of topics as of late which have changed the feel of the board. So much of it has been dedicated to discussing same-sex marriage and Ordain Women that it has left us somewhat bereft of the topics which brought me and kept me here over the past few years.

[ALarson]

I wish you well, Mystery Meat and have enjoyed reading your perspective on here.  I know we have rarely agreed, but I've always found you to be fair.

[ALarson]

I agree, and I feel that it's been the choice of topics as of late which have changed the feel of the board. So much of it has been dedicated to discussing same-sex marriage and Ordain Women that it has left us somewhat bereft of the topics which brought me and kept me here over the past few years.

I agree.  This has brought out ugliness from both sides and I have felt much more anger here lately than when I first started posting. 

[Jacob]

I agree. The following typically fits, imo:

 

D&C 88

 

118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the bestbooks words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

...

122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.

123 See that ye love one another; cease to be covetous; learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires.

 

Most forget that all need to speak in a learning environment and when someone is speaking you should listen with love and a lack of "covetous" mindset. I feel that a lack of "ceas[ing] to be covetous" is referencing a lot of the attitude that you are describing.

[Mystery Meat]

I agree. The following typically fits, imo:

 

D&C 88

 

118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the bestbooks words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

...

122 Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.

123 See that ye love one another; cease to be covetous; learn to impart one to another as the gospel requires.

 

Most forget that all need to speak in a learning environment and when someone is speaking you should listen with love and a lack of "covetous" mindset. I feel that a lack of "ceas[ing] to be covetous" is referencing a lot of the attitude that you are describing.

 

Nice thoughts. I also think the Savior's teaching of unity ("If ye are not one, ye are not mine") is also important to remember.

[Mars]

i take time off quite a bit.  i've been a member of the board since 2006 and yet i have very few posts.

[Stargazer]

I've absented myself from this place for as much as a week at a time after trying to wade through some particularly egregious crap.  I've also done so after generating some particularly egregious crap, and then coming to my senses just before posting.  Last night I spent a hour or so crafting a particularly brilliant and insightful post in response to something that I really felt deserved my intervention.  After posting it I looked at it admiringly for a few moments, and then I went back in and removed my deathless prose.  Don't worry, I kept a copy, so the labor wasn't wasted.  But did my interlocutor really need my verbiage?  Being unsure, I retreated in the face of self-doubts.  I can't promise to leave here, however.

 

I will miss your contributions if you do decide to bow out, MM.  You are one of the voices of sanity around here, whether you know it or not.

[Jacob]

Nice thoughts. I also think the Savior's teaching of unity ("If ye are not one, ye are not mine") is also important to remember.

Definitely. I think being "one" includes those who are not "within the fold." I don't think most really agree with this. They seem to believe that there is "one" fold, but stragglers are not a part of the fold while they are stragglers. I'm pretty sure the shepherd views it as a single unit and not as a unit including the stragglers.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

But as I have participated here, I have come to the conclusion that very few are here to discuss; even fewer are hear to actually learn or have their mind opened and changed. People are hear to make cheap points and to try and change other people's minds. I am not sure I have ever seen those most antagonistic to the Church concede a single point or admit when they are wrong. I am not sure those who are friendly have done it much more (although as a general trend, conceding more and more ground to those opposed or at least more progressive seems to be a recent theme). More often than not, when someone makes a point that another poster doesn't like, they simply ignore it rather than concede a point; when it is brought to the poster's attention they simply say it wasn't relevant and didn't feel the need to respond (or continue to ignore).

I have conceded a few points in my time here. But I have yet to have any one that I had a disagreement reciprocate. I know I am not wrong on a whole lot of points. I used to post a ton. But I figured there was no point when people are so ingrained in what seems to be be political leanings that transcend religion and the cannot put the politics off or they think they know what they are talking about and they don't.. I am sure the same could be said of me. I don't really care at this point, though.

 

The other issue is people that claim to be something they are not. There has been a very steady and every so sophisticated group that comes in claiming to be believing LDS. I cannot believe they are.  And it is disheartening. Which my be the whole point.

 

But I agree with you I don't like what it has done with me. I used to be able to agree to disagree and let it go. But not so much. I have thought of ceasing my board activity all together. I have wondered what good I have to offer. Others seem to do it in a better way. And even then those that have the disagreement still wont every concede a single point.

 

 

Well I wish you well and you will more than likely stick around for some of the entertainment that comes around from time to time.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I agree, and I feel that it's been the choice of topics as of late which have changed the feel of the board. So much of it has been dedicated to discussing same-sex marriage and Ordain Women that it has left us somewhat bereft of the topics which brought me and kept me here over the past few years.

Amen to that. I am quite seriously sick and tired of both of those topics.

[ALarson]

Mystery Meat (and I agree with your post too, Mola), I actually was just thinking about starting a thread asking if anyone has been influenced or has changed their minds on a subject from what another has posted on here.  I know this does happen, but for the most part, I believe that we just talk past each other and then move on to another topic.  In the process some pretty angry and ugly things are said (again from both sides).

 

There are a few posters who have made me stop and think and who I have really learned from (JLHPROF comes to mind and so does calmoriah), but people tend to believe what they believe and most on here, are pretty well read.  It's human nature to believe that we are right and that we have the real truth.

 

So, I get where you're coming from here and have also thought about moving on.  But, this forum is still a great resource for me and I love to ask questions and get feedback (for help with upcoming lessons I teach and so on).  But, I have stopped participating as much especially on threads of certain topics that go nowhere.

Edited July 21, 2015 by ALarson

[HappyJackWagon]

Mystery Meat (and I agree with your post too, Mola), I actually was just thinking about starting a thread asking if anyone has been influenced or has changed their minds on a subject from what another has posted on here.  I know this does happen, but for the most part, I believe that we just talk past each other and then move on to another topic.  In the process some pretty angry and ugly things are said (again from both sides).

 

There are a few posters who have made me stop and think and who I have really learned from (JLHPROF comes to mind and so does calmoriah), but people tend to believe what they believe and most on here, are pretty well read.  It's human nature to believe that we are right and that we have the real truth.

 

So, I get where you're coming from here and have also thought about moving on.  But, this forum is still a great resource for me and I love to ask questions and get feedback (for help with upcoming lessons I teach and so on).  But, I have stopped participating as much especially on threads of certain topics that go nowhere.

Boards have absolutely caused me to look at things in a different way. I've reevaluated information or studied new information based on comments from others. We learn through discussion and then subsequent study. Our beliefs and attitudes don't exist in a vacuum. They develop over time from a myriad of sources, some of which we don't even recognize.

[ALarson]

Boards have absolutely caused me to look at things in a different way. I've reevaluated information or studied new information based on comments from others. We learn through discussion and then subsequent study. Our beliefs and attitudes don't exist in a vacuum. They develop over time from a myriad of sources, some of which we don't even recognize.

I agree.  I also have seen that some on here are very open to learning from others or at least trying to see the other's point of view.  And then there are those who nearly always respond with curt, angry replies that put down the other's opinion or belief.  

 

I enjoy discussing a topic with someone who disagrees with me and who actually respects my right to believe differently. I also like reading anything they supply to support their opinion as well.  

Edited July 21, 2015 by ALarson

[Mystery Meat]

Mystery Meat (and I agree with your post too, Mola), I actually was just thinking about starting a thread asking if anyone has been influenced or has changed their minds on a subject from what another has posted on here.  I know this does happen, but for the most part, I believe that we just talk past each other and then move on to another topic.  In the process some pretty angry and ugly things are said (again from both sides).

 

There are a few posters who have made me stop and think and who I have really learned from (JLHPROF comes to mind and so does calmoriah), but people tend to believe what they believe and most on here, are pretty well read.  It's human nature to believe that we are right and that we have the real truth.

 

So, I get where you're coming from here and have also thought about moving on.  But, this forum is still a great resource for me and I love to ask questions and get feedback (for help with upcoming lessons I teach and so on).  But, I have stopped participating as much especially on threads of certain topics that go nowhere.

 

I do not doubt that there have been positive discussions and developments. The trouble is they are buried beneath mounds of toxicity. At some point you have to decide if it is worth it. I would hope that this board and its tone will change. I am not sure that is realistic. I think sometimes the apologetic voices are held to a higher standard, and I actually think that the higher standard is appropriate in my viewpoint, but when an apologist gives a strongly worded reply they are accused of things that a critic would not. It is as if there is no place for a strong defense to counter strong attacks. So for me, I have decided the best thing I can do to defend the church is in my real life, outside of this board.

[jkwilliams]

I do not doubt that there have been positive discussions and developments. The trouble is they are buried beneath mounds of toxicity. At some point you have to decide if it is worth it. I would hope that this board and its tone will change. I am not sure that is realistic. I think sometimes the apologetic voices are held to a higher standard, and I actually think that the higher standard is appropriate in my viewpoint, but when an apologist gives a strongly worded reply they are accused of things that a critic would not. It is as if there is no place for a strong defense to counter strong attacks. So for me, I have decided the best thing I can do to defend the church is in my real life, outside of this board.

 

The trick is to walk away from toxicity and focus on the positive. It takes discipline, but it can be done. 

[Bob Crockett]

[snip]

 

I plan on following this thread for the next day or so, after that I will move on. I just need to figure out what I am going to do with all of my additional time.

 

Let me respond with my usually unenlightened comments. 

 

I have beat the drum many times for the concept that anonymous posting on religious topics is behavior that God would never likely sanction, is counterproductive to good mental health and Christian conduct and is anti-social.  I would propose that people who have the courage to write in their own names are less likely to be offended, take offense and offer offense.   I know that people hire private investigators to research me (I am a trial lawyer, antitrust and land use) and I want to make sure only the best comes out.  My posts have been mentioned in court proceedings.

 

That doesn't mean that I tend to be milquetoast.  I'm not.  I am often the victim of gnashing of the teeth when I criticize John Sorenson or Margaret Barker, and my criticisms aren't very polite.  

 

But I learn a lot from this board and sometimes it helps me in dealing with members of my stake or other stakes, or even clients in Salt Lake, who have questions.  I get calls and emails asking obscure questions and the answers are usually the ones I have found here (or I've been pointed to answers here.)   I am a Board member of the Claremont Mormon Studies program and perhaps the interest and things I've learned here helps me there.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[CA Steve]

I am sure God wanted the American revolutionary soldiers to stand out in front of the British soldiers where they could see them instead of  shooting from  cover.

Edited July 21, 2015 by CA Steve

[MorningStar]

Will you at least tell us what kind of meat you are before you go?

[Mystery Meat]

Will you at least tell us what kind of meat you are before you go?

 

"Other"

[jkwilliams]

"Other"

 

Scrapple it is.