Reverence And Building Design

[Bernard Gui]

Our ward council is having the perennial discussion on how to improve reverence in our sacrament meeting. Given the church-wide emphasis on improving Sabbath day observance, I make these comments:

I have come to think that our modern buildings are designed for moving people efficiently in and out of the building, but that they are inadequate for proper fellowshipping before and after meetings - which is a major contributor to noise in the chapel.

Our building has 4 outside entrances, NSEW. The chapel is in the center of the building and has 2 foyers each with 3 doors that lead into the chapel.

Members enter the building from all 4 directions, and then make their way into the chapel through one of the 6 doors in the foyers. This results in a lot of "meet and greet" conversations inside the chapel instead of in the foyers, and it is difficult to have effective greeting and ushering at the doors.

In older building there might be several outside entrances, but there is only one large foyer with one or two entrances into the chapel. "Meet and greet" took place in the foyer where the bishopric and ushers greeted members as they came into the chapel. It was much easier to encourage reverence with this design.

On a typical Sunday, a family enters from the parking lot and then passes through one of the 6 chapel doors. Inside they are reminded to be reverent (silent) and listen to the prelude music. After sacrament meeting, they are asked to go directly to Sunday School classes or Primary and not linger in the hallways. After Sunday School, they are moved off to Priesthood, Relief Society, and Young Men and Women meetings. At the conclusion of these meetings, members are asked to vacate the building and not loiter in the halls because there is another ward meeting in the chapel, and the kids are cranky so the parents want to get out as soon as possible.

Thus, we can pass an entire Sunday without "meeting and greeting" many of our brothers and sisters.

This has several consequences: 1. Less fellowship. 2. Increased need to socialize in the chapel before sacrament meeting. 3. Reduced chances to get to know new members or visitors. 4. A feeling of "hurry, hurry" in church. 5. Decreased ward unity.

When I brought this up today in WC, I was told, "We are here for instruction, not for socializing."

Any thoughts?

Edited June 23, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[cinepro]

When I brought this up today in WC, I was told, "We are here for instruction, not for socializing." 

 

Any thoughts?

Whoever said that is stupid. It's not an either/or situation. With three hours at Church, there is plenty of time for both socializing and instruction.

I would also be very wary of buying into the premise that too much socializing is a bad thing, even before Sacrament Meeting. "Socializing" means people are talking to each other. They like each other, and are happy to see each other. It means they are at Church and not somewhere else. 

 

Obviously, there can be too much socializing, or socializing at the wrong time (like during a lesson or meeting).  Other than that, I would be wary of adopting someone's personal opinion on the subject as the "gospel truth".

 

Also, I would point out that Sacrament Meeting is designed with a program that transitions from the opening announcements and such to the more spiritual aspects of the meeting.  You have a good 15 - 20 minutes of hymns, announcements, ward business and prayers to get "reverent" for the Sacrament and talks that follow.  You don't need to be in full spiritual mode right when the meeting starts.

 

But for practical advice, I can definitely say that the most effective thing you could ever do to get people to behave better in the chapel is turn off the florescent lights in the seating areas and cultural hall overflow.  If you can have a darkened seating area, people will talk much less, and children will be much better behaved.  Having the fluorescent lighting turned on so it's brighter than the noon-day sun is about the worst thing you could do if you want people to be focused and quiet (especially children), and it mystifies me that we do this.

[ksfisher]

I believe that the number of doors leading into the chapel, as you've described, is dictated by fire code. A room that can hold X number of people has to have Y number of exits.

[strappinglad]

Cinepro has hit upon an idea. Note what happens in a movie theatre . Lights are up, everyone is milling about finding a seat and chatting. Lights go down slowly and people settle in for the show. The lights dimming is the signal for all to focus and quiet down. In the chapel , there could be a light guy( or gal ) who then sets a spot light on the pulpit as the Bishop reads the announcements etc. The lights then increase somewhat for the rest of the service so the deacons don't trip. I like the idea of a visual cue as well as an audible one of the prelude music. ( My tongue is only partially in my cheek )

[The Nehor]

When I brought this up today in WC, I was told, "We are here for instruction, not for socializing." 

Counterpoint: Then we really need better speakers.

I am there for the sacrament. If I get anything else out of it (happens occasionally) then bonus.

[Bernard Gui]

Whoever said that is stupid. It's not an either/or situation. With three hours at Church, there is plenty of time for both socializing and instruction.

I would also be very wary of buying into the premise that too much socializing is a bad thing, even before Sacrament Meeting. "Socializing" means people are talking to each other. They like each other, and are happy to see each other. It means they are at Church and not somewhere else.

Obviously, there can be too much socializing, or socializing at the wrong time (like during a lesson or meeting). Other than that, I would be wary of adopting someone's personal opinion on the subject as the "gospel truth".

Also, I would point out that Sacrament Meeting is designed with a program that transitions from the opening announcements and such to the more spiritual aspects of the meeting. You have a good 15 - 20 minutes of hymns, announcements, ward business and prayers to get "reverent" for the Sacrament and talks that follow. You don't need to be in full spiritual mode right when the meeting starts.

But for practical advice, I can definitely say that the most effective thing you could ever do to get people to behave better in the chapel is turn off the florescent lights in the seating areas and cultural hall overflow. If you can have a darkened seating area, people will talk much less, and children will be much better behaved. Having the fluorescent lighting turned on so it's brighter than the noon-day sun is about the worst thing you could do if you want people to be focused and quiet (especially children), and it mystifies me that we do this.

I agree with your assessment of that comment. The scriptures are clear that we meet for both purposes. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact I think they enhance each other. I don't have a problem with encouraging reverence before the meeting starts, but it is in our nature to greet our friends. Because of the building design we have, that mostly takes place in the chapel. This makes it a constant issue. I will try your idea with the lights. Edited June 22, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Counterpoint: Then we really need better speakers.

I am there for the sacrament. If I get anything else out of it (happens occasionally) then bonus.

Certainly the purpose of the meeting is the sacrament, but that only occupies a small portion of the time. Reverence during the sacrament has not been a problem. We usually have pretty good speakers, especially when Sister Gui is the speaker.

I am reminded of a part of non-LDS church services when the pastor or priest invites the congregation to greet those seated near them.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

 

But for practical advice, I can definitely say that the most effective thing you could ever do to get people to behave better in the chapel is turn off the florescent lights in the seating areas and cultural hall overflow.  If you can have a darkened seating area, people will talk much less, and children will be much better behaved.  Having the fluorescent lighting turned on so it's brighter than the noon-day sun is about the worst thing you could do if you want people to be focused and quiet (especially children), and it mystifies me that we do this.

Good point. It is this way in my current ward, though I suspect it is more because it was built with windows being an older building.  Even so, I think it probably helps a great deal.

Edited June 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

I've been lamenting for a long time that we can't dim the lights before sacrament meeting, or even have them dim for the majority of it.  As Cinepro said, dim lighting naturally encourages a quieter atmosphere.

 

I think that part of the problem (besides the ones you listed Bernard, which i agree with) is that our chapels don't inspire reverence.  They are very utilitarian in nature, and we sometimes use them for lesser meetings such as sunday school, priesthood meetings, combined meetings, etc. etc.  That means that we are conditioned as church members to not really think of the chapel as an ordinance room.  It's more the room that you use when you need some place that seats a lot of people and something 'churchey' is involved, whatever the reason. 

 

I have holy envy for Catholic sanctuaries and cathedrals which really do, for me anyway, inspire reverence simply thru their architecture and lighting.

[bluebell]

 

 

But for practical advice, I can definitely say that the most effective thing you could ever do to get people to behave better in the chapel is turn off the florescent lights in the seating areas and cultural hall overflow.  If you can have a darkened seating area, people will talk much less, and children will be much better behaved.  Having the fluorescent lighting turned on so it's brighter than the noon-day sun is about the worst thing you could do if you want people to be focused and quiet (especially children), and it mystifies me that we do this.

 

What's even more mystifying is when they leave as many lights on as possible even when we are trying to watch a broadcast of something, so that you can barely see the screen.   I know that pitch dark would not work with kids so i don't think we need to go to that extreme, but it's not like turning off some lights in the chapel is a sin or something.

[Mystery Meat]

I think there is space for both socializing and reverence. I don't think, however, that the time or place for socializing is in the chapel within ten minutes of the start of sacrament meeting. We have two hours of additional meetings that follow (or precede) that can facilitate socializing/fellowshiping. 

Edited June 22, 2015 by Mystery Meat

[Storm Rider]

I think proper labels are important.  Fellowshipping is not socializing and fellowshipping is an important activity among the saints.  The point is that there needs to be time for fellowshipping and there needs to be time for Sunday meetings.  We each know people who come to church and then hang out in the halls - they are not fellowshipping; they are socializing and that is not ideal for Sunday services for the individual or for the congregation.  We need time that is specifically set aside for fellowshipping among the saints.  I miss the Sunday potlucks of my youth that took place every 5th Sunday.  i think having after-church stay and chats over refreshments would also be helpful.  

 

Dimming the lights seems like a good idea; we could also have a live symphony, professional singers, trained orators, etc.  There is a fine line between entertainment and promoting spirituality and strengthening each individual ward member.  It can turn into a slippery slope if we lose focus on our priorities.  

Edited June 22, 2015 by Storm Rider

[rockpond]

I don't think the problem is socializing before/after the meetings.  The adults quiet down pretty quickly when the meeting starts.  If we really want reverence, we have to address the fact that sacrament meeting is not designed for primary age children.  They need another place to go.

[ERayR]

I don't think the problem is socializing before/after the meetings.  The adults quiet down pretty quickly when the meeting starts.  If we really want reverence, we have to address the fact that sacrament meeting is not designed for primary age children.  They need another place to go.

 

Then you have members missing the sacrament baby sitting someone elses children.  I submit that the meetings are organized just right and if children a a problem for you then examine your own attitude.  "Unless ye become as little children. . .

[Mystery Meat]

I don't think the problem is socializing before/after the meetings.  The adults quiet down pretty quickly when the meeting starts.  If we really want reverence, we have to address the fact that sacrament meeting is not designed for primary age children.  They need another place to go.

 

Children take many of their cues on how to behave in sacrament meeting from their parents and other adults. If parents were more reverent, the kids would be significantly better.

 

Reverence and worship so that we may participate in the most sacred of ordinances is not a difficult concept to understand. How you act in ordinance rooms in the temple should be how you act in the ordinance room on Sunday.

[Mystery Meat]

I don't think the problem is socializing before/after the meetings.  The adults quiet down pretty quickly when the meeting starts.  If we really want reverence, we have to address the fact that sacrament meeting is not designed for primary age children.  They need another place to go.

 

Additionally, preparation for the sacrament shouldn't and doesn't start when the meeting begins. Reverence should begin no later then when we cross the threshold of the chapel doors.

[rockpond]

Then you have members missing the sacrament baby sitting someone elses children.  I submit that the meetings are organized just right and if children a a problem for you then examine your own attitude.  "Unless ye become as little children. . .

 

Whoa... slow down.  That wasn't what I meant.  And you've misread my "attitude".

 

First, I don't have a problem with kids in the meeting (I have three primary age kids myself).  I also don't have a problem with the level of reverence in our meetings.  I was just responding to the OP:  If you want more reverent meetings, socializing isn't the issue.  Kids are.  I think the other ideas being discussed here are good but they are equivalent to putting my phone into silent mode while I'm at an amusement park.

 

The fact is, we want our kids there with us.  That's great.  I want to keep 'em there.

 

And, if we did ever decide to have a "nursery" during sacrament meeting, I wouldn't want members to miss taking the sacrament... I think it would have to be done as a joint venture with another ward.

[ERayR]

Whoa... slow down.  That wasn't what I meant.  And you've misread my "attitude".

 

First, I don't have a problem with kids in the meeting (I have three primary age kids myself).  I also don't have a problem with the level of reverence in our meetings.  I was just responding to the OP:  If you want more reverent meetings, socializing isn't the issue.  Kids are.  I think the other ideas being discussed here are good but they are equivalent to putting my phone into silent mode while I'm at an amusement park.

 

The fact is, we want our kids there with us.  That's great.  I want to keep 'em there.

 

And, if we did ever decide to have a "nursery" during sacrament meeting, I wouldn't want members to miss taking the sacrament... I think it would have to be done as a joint venture with another ward.

 

Forgiveness Please.

[bluebell]

Whoa... slow down.  That wasn't what I meant.  And you've misread my "attitude".

 

First, I don't have a problem with kids in the meeting (I have three primary age kids myself).  I also don't have a problem with the level of reverence in our meetings.  I was just responding to the OP:  If you want more reverent meetings, socializing isn't the issue.  Kids are.  I think the other ideas being discussed here are good but they are equivalent to putting my phone into silent mode while I'm at an amusement park.

 

The fact is, we want our kids there with us.  That's great.  I want to keep 'em there.

 

And, if we did ever decide to have a "nursery" during sacrament meeting, I wouldn't want members to miss taking the sacrament... I think it would have to be done as a joint venture with another ward.

 

It sounds like Bernard is talking about having more reverence before the meeting, not during it.  Maybe i have misunderstood though.  

[rockpond]

Children take many of their cues on how to behave in sacrament meeting from their parents and other adults. If parents were more reverent, the kids would be significantly better.

 

Reverence and worship so that we may participate in the most sacred of ordinances is not a difficult concept to understand. How you act in ordinance rooms in the temple should be how you act in the ordinance room on Sunday.

 

In my current calling, I sit on the stand and as I look at the congregation, I see reverent well-behaved adults.  But kids are still kids sometimes.  Sacrament meeting just isn't designed for kids.  No way around that which makes it difficult.  I don't want to put more pressure on parents to keep their kids quiet when I know that they are already trying their best.

[rockpond]

Additionally, preparation for the sacrament shouldn't and doesn't start when the meeting begins. Reverence should begin no later then when we cross the threshold of the chapel doors.

 

It sounds like Bernard is talking about having more reverence before the meeting, not during it.  Maybe i have misunderstood though.  

 

If we're talking about reverence before the meeting, that makes more sense.  Although I am very torn with respect to that.

 

Not long ago, a member of the ward approached me after sacrament meeting and said "you need to do something about the noise level in here before sacrament meeting starts".  So the next week, I took my seat ten minutes before the meeting started and watched the members of our ward.  It was probably too loud.  But what I saw was one friendly conversation after another.  Fellowshipping -- and lots of it.  I'm not sure that I want to curtail that.

[Mystery Meat]

In my current calling, I sit on the stand and as I look at the congregation, I see reverent well-behaved adults.  But kids are still kids sometimes.  Sacrament meeting just isn't designed for kids.  No way around that which makes it difficult.  I don't want to put more pressure on parents to keep their kids quiet when I know that they are already trying their best.

 

Your ward must be different than mine (every ward I have ever been in actually) where adults are busy discussing calling matters, pestering the bishop/bishopric, handing in tithing, setting up hometeaching appointments, talking about the game, discussing the weekend, surfing on their phones and generally doing anything and everything but focusing on the Savior and the ordinance.

 

All of those other things can be done at different times without hindering from otherwise good intentions and desires.

 

We only get to prep for the sacrament in the chapel once a week.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Mystery Meat

[rockpond]

Forgiveness Please.

 

No offense taken and no need to apologize.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify my remarks.  All my best to you ERayR.

[rockpond]

Your ward must be different than mine (every ward I have ever been in actually) where adults are busy discussing calling matters, pestering the bishop/bishopric, handing in tithing, setting up hometeaching appointments, talking about the game, discussing the weekend, surfing on their phones and generally doing anything and everything but focusing on the Savior and the ordinance.

 

All of those other things can be done at different times without hindering from otherwise good intentions and desires.

 

Before the meeting... Yes.  Once it starts... not that I can notice.

[bluebell]

If we're talking about reverence before the meeting, that makes more sense.  Although I am very torn with respect to that.

 

Not long ago, a member of the ward approached me after sacrament meeting and said "you need to do something about the noise level in here before sacrament meeting starts".  So the next week, I took my seat ten minutes before the meeting started and watched the members of our ward.  It was probably too loud.  But what I saw was one friendly conversation after another.  Fellowshipping -- and lots of it.  I'm not sure that I want to curtail that.

 

Bernard seems to agree.  It would help if there was a time or a place to socialize before church (or after) that did not include the actual chapel.  I think that's what he was trying to find a solution to.  That, and keeping people out of the chapel and in a central location so they can socialize before walking thru the chapel doors.