Reverence And Building Design

[ERayR]

In my current calling, I sit on the stand and as I look at the congregation, I see reverent well-behaved adults.  But kids are still kids sometimes.  Sacrament meeting just isn't designed for kids.  No way around that which makes it difficult.  I don't want to put more pressure on parents to keep their kids quiet when I know that they are already trying their best.

 

I can't find it now but it was related to me that one of the GA's once said we must expect some restlessness from chilkdren as they are adult spirits cramped up in those small bodies.

[Mystery Meat]

Before the meeting... Yes.  Once it starts... not that I can notice.

 

Before the meeting is just as bad.

 

President Packer:

 

 

 

For the past several years we have watched patterns of reverence and irreverence in the Church. While many are to be highly commended, we are drifting. We have reason to be deeply concerned.....Our sacrament and other meetings need renewed attention to assure that they are truly worship services in which members may be spiritually nourished and have their testimonies replenished and in which investigators may feel the inspiration essential to spiritual conversion...When we return for Sunday meetings, the music, dress, and conduct should be appropriate for worship. Foyers are built into our chapels to allow for the greeting and chatter that are typical of people who love one another. However, when we step into the chapel, we must!—each of us must—watch ourselves lest we be guilty of intruding when someone is struggling to feel delicate spiritual communications...Leaders sometimes wonder why so many active members get themselves into such predicaments in life. Could it be that they do not feel what they need to feel because our meetings are less than they might be spiritually? Irreverent conduct in our chapels is worthy of a reminder, if not reproof. Leaders should teach that reverence invites revelation. The reverence we speak of does not equate with absolute silence. We must be tolerant of little babies, even an occasional outburst from a toddler being ushered out to keep him from disturbing the peace. Unless the father is on the stand, he should do the ushering.

 https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/reverence-invites-revelation?lang=eng&query=reverence

Elder Oaks:

 

I begin with how members of the Church should prepare themselves to participate in the ordinance of the sacrament. In a worldwide leadership training meeting five years ago, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught the priesthood leaders of the Church how to plan and conduct sacrament meetings. “We commemorate His Atonement in a very personal way,” Elder Nelson said. “We bring a broken heart and a contrite spirit to our sacrament meeting. It is the highlight of our Sabbath-day observance” (“Worshiping at Sacrament Meeting,”Liahona, Aug. 2004, 12; Ensign, Aug. 2004, 26).

We are seated well before the meeting begins. “During that quiet interval, prelude music is subdued. This is not a time for conversation or transmission of messages but a period of prayerful meditation as leaders and members prepare spiritually for the sacrament” (Liahona, Aug. 2004, 13; Ensign, Aug. 2004, 27).

When the Savior appeared to the Nephites following HisResurrection, He taught them that they should stop the practice of sacrifice by the shedding of blood. Instead, “ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit” (3 Nephi 9:20). That commandment, repeated in the modern revelation directing us to partake of the sacrament each week, tells us how we should prepare. As Elder Nelson taught, “Each member of the Church bears responsibility for the spiritual enrichment that can come from a sacrament meeting” (Liahona, Aug. 2004, 14; Ensign,Aug. 2004, 28).

In his writings on the doctrines of salvation, President Joseph Fielding Smith teaches that we partake of the sacrament as our part of commemorating the Savior’s death and sufferings for the redemption of the world. This ordinance was introduced so that we can renew our covenants to serve Him, to obey Him, and to always remember Him. President Smith adds: “We cannot retain the Spirit of the Lord if we do not consistently comply with this commandment” (Doctrines of Salvation,comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:341).

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/sacrament-meeting-and-the-sacrament?lang=eng&query=reverence

 

And Elder Packer again:

 

 

 

Prelude music, reverently played, is nourishment for the spirit. It invites inspiration. That is a time to, as the poet said, “go to your bosom … and ask your heart what it doth know.” ³⁰ Do not ever disturb prelude music for others, for reverence is essential to revelation. “Be still,” He said, “and know that I am God.” 

[Mystery Meat]

Another quote from Brigham Young on the sacrament meeting:

 

 

 

Every person should be silent when we meet here to worship God. Remember and try to keep perfectly quiet, and do not whisper, talk, nor scrape your feet 

[mnn727]

 

 

 

When I brought this up today in WC, I was told, "We are here for instruction, not for socializing." 

 

Any thoughts?

Yeah, whomever said that does not understand the meaning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is Service to others and that means fellowshipping also. You can not truly serve those you don't know and understand. Yes you can give basic service, but not service out of love for the individual and family.

 

I went to a service at my FiL's Methodist Church when we visited him shortly after we were married (he wanted to show off his daughters new husband I guess), they had a fellowship hall off the chapel with: couches, chairs, coffee (they were Methodists not LDS), ice water, glasses, cups, tables and all were encouraged to 'get to know each other before and after their services.

 

Our Churches are too small for everything we have going on IMHO. We need to think of more than just efficiency if we want the Saints to become as one.

[mnn727]

I am reminded of a part of non-LDS church services when the pastor or priest invites the congregation to greet those seated near them.

Been in many non-LDS meeting and its usually not an actual get to know someone type of greeting.

[ERayR]

Another quote from Brigham Young on the sacrament meeting:

 

That was just BY talking on his own. 

[cinepro]

Been in many non-LDS meeting and its usually not an actual get to know someone type of greeting.

On my mission in the southern US, we visited a large church with an investigator (there were no LDS services because the Orlando Temple was being dedicated).

At the start of the meeting, the pastor asked everyone who "wasn't there for the first time" to please stand up. So 99% of the people stand up, leaving my companion, investigator and I sitting along with a few other people scattered throughout the large auditorium.  At which point the pastor said, "if you're standing, please introduce yourself to someone sitting near you."  We were suddenly facing smiling faces and handshakes from every direction as people welcomed us and told us "glad to see you" and "y'all don't be strangers" etc.

 

It was very memorable.

[Calm]

I can't find it now but it was related to me that one of the GA's once said we must expect some restlessness from chilkdren as they are adult spirits cramped up in those small bodies.

I wonder if my restlessness means I have an extralarge spirit.

[Calm]

I have been in wards that have a Primary girl and boy, one at each side of the front next to the steps (I am sorry, can't think of what the raised area is called today) so one of them at least can be easily seen by everyone coming in from both sides and they stand there quietly with arms folded for five minutes before the meeting begins.  This is great imo because the kids are going to notice them before they notice another adult among other adults plus they will know what is going on because they have been taught in Sharing Time what it is about and if old enough, will even have their own chance to participate...so they will pay more attention and remember and be reminded each week in Primary as it is announced who is going to be doing it the next week that it is a time of reverence.

 

And adults will notice as well and hopefully act accordingly as good examples.  

 

Wouldn't be a bad idea for occasional reminders in adult classes.

 

And recognition from the person conducting can help the children feel like they are active participants in their community (as in contributing, not just being physically active).

[Bernard Gui]

I think there is space for both socializing and reverence. I don't think, however, that the time or place for socializing is in the chapel within ten minutes of the start of sacrament meeting. We have two hours of additional meetings that follow (or precede) that can facilitate socializing/fellowshiping.

As I noted above, we are shuffled off to other meetings and actively discouraged from socializing, or shushed because there are other wards meeting in the chapel.

[Bernard Gui]

I believe that the number of doors leading into the chapel, as you've described, is dictated by fire code. A room that can hold X number of people has to have Y number of exits.

Probably so.

[Bernard Gui]

I think proper labels are important. Fellowshipping is not socializing and fellowshipping is an important activity among the saints. The point is that there needs to be time for fellowshipping and there needs to be time for Sunday meetings. We each know people who come to church and then hang out in the halls - they are not fellowshipping; they are socializing and that is not ideal for Sunday services for the individual or for the congregation. We need time that is specifically set aside for fellowshipping among the saints. I miss the Sunday potlucks of my youth that took place every 5th Sunday. i think having after-church stay and chats over refreshments would also be helpful.

Dimming the lights seems like a good idea; we could also have a live symphony, professional singers, trained orators, etc. There is a fine line between entertainment and promoting spirituality and strengthening each individual ward member. It can turn into a slippery slope if we lose focus on our priorities.

We are considering the after-meeting potluck....or maybe just snacks. This would work only because we are the last ot 3 wards that use the building. We also have the hall class, but they resist the urging to move into Gospel Doctrine. No one is suggesting entertainment. I have performed at many non-LDS churches over the years, and they have the entertainment portion down nicely. Not for an LDS sacrament meeting, though.

How about shortening the class times by 3 minutes and a have a 5 minute pause for rubbing elbows?

Edited June 23, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I don't think the problem is socializing before/after the meetings. The adults quiet down pretty quickly when the meeting starts. If we really want reverence, we have to address the fact that sacrament meeting is not designed for primary age children. They need another place to go.

The issue is the noise in the period just before sacrament meeting begins. I have no problem with kids in the meeting. That can be dealt with. I had 7 of them. We used to have "cry rooms" for that purpose back in the olden days. Edited June 23, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Additionally, preparation for the sacrament shouldn't and doesn't start when the meeting begins. Reverence should begin no later then when we cross the threshold of the chapel doors.

That's the issue I am bringing up. The mix of human nature, our meeting schedules, and the design of modern chapels are impedements to that reverence.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

How about sotening the class times by 3 minutes and a have a 5 minute pause for rubbing elbows?

 

Technically, we do already have that pause built into the schedule now.  Not as much after sacrament meeting but following sunday school, if teachers get out on time, there's a 10-15 minute gap between it and the start of RS and priesthood.

[Bernard Gui]

It sounds like Bernard is talking about having more reverence before the meeting, not during it.  Maybe i have misunderstood though.

You have the correct understanding. We have a need to socialize, but the design of our buildings coupled with our meeting schedules do not permit that.....so we are noisy in the chapel before sacrament meeting.

Example: We had 2 missionaries return home recently. In addition to ward members who had followed theirmissions, lots of friends and relatives came to the sacrament meeting following their return. There was a whole lot of greeting going on.....before themeeting in the chapel for the reasons I outlined in the OP. The congregation was shushed from the podium. After the meeting we were shuffled to our classes and asked not to linger in the halls....there was no time for a proper reunion, which seemed a bit sad to me. Having a reception in the home.....yeah, but.......

[Bernard Gui]

If we're talking about reverence before the meeting, that makes more sense.  Although I am very torn with respect to that.

 

Not long ago, a member of the ward approached me after sacrament meeting and said "you need to do something about the noise level in here before sacrament meeting starts".  So the next week, I took my seat ten minutes before the meeting started and watched the members of our ward.  It was probably too loud.  But what I saw was one friendly conversation after another.  Fellowshipping -- and lots of it.  I'm not sure that I want to curtail that.

indeed.

[Bernard Gui]

Your ward must be different than mine (every ward I have ever been in actually) where adults are busy discussing calling matters, pestering the bishop/bishopric, handing in tithing, setting up hometeaching appointments, talking about the game, discussing the weekend, surfing on their phones and generally doing anything and everything but focusing on the Savior and the ordinance.

 

All of those other things can be done at different times without hindering from otherwise good intentions and desires.

 

We only get to prep for the sacrament in the chapel once a week.

All valid points. It's the "different times" that are lacking....and I add a different space.

[Bernard Gui]

Bernard seems to agree.  It would help if there was a time or a place to socialize before church (or after) that did not include the actual chapel.  I think that's what he was trying to find a solution to.  That, and keeping people out of the chapel and in a central location so they can socialize before walking thru the chapel doors.  

How about congregating in the closed-off cultural hall before the meeting and then repairing to the chapel 5 minutes before the meeting starts, with ushers at the chapel doors and prelude music playing in the chapel? Or opening the folding doors and entering the chapel from the rear as the bishopric and ushers greet members as they pass by?

[Bernard Gui]

Before the meeting is just as bad.

 

President Packer:

 

 https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/reverence-invites-revelation?lang=eng&query=reverence

Elder Oaks:

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/sacrament-meeting-and-the-sacrament?lang=eng&query=reverence

 

And Elder Packer again:

Excellent and valid points. Our multiple small foyers and entrances do not lend themselves to this ideal, though.

[Bernard Gui]

Yeah, whomever said that does not understand the meaning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is Service to others and that means fellowshipping also. You can not truly serve those you don't know and understand. Yes you can give basic service, but not service out of love for the individual and family.

 

I went to a service at my FiL's Methodist Church when we visited him shortly after we were married (he wanted to show off his daughters new husband I guess), they had a fellowship hall off the chapel with: couches, chairs, coffee (they were Methodists not LDS), ice water, glasses, cups, tables and all were encouraged to 'get to know each other before and after their services.

 

Our Churches are too small for everything we have going on IMHO. We need to think of more than just efficiency if we want the Saints to become as one.

. Music to my ears.

[Bernard Gui]

Been in many non-LDS meeting and its usually not an actual get to know someone type of greeting.

Of course. It is brief, but it does happen.

[Bernard Gui]

I wonder if my restlessness means I have an extra large spirit.

Well, if by spirit you mean heart, you would be right. Perhaps even xxxl.

[Bernard Gui]

On my mission in the southern US, we visited a large church with an investigator (there were no LDS services because the Orlando Temple was being dedicated).

At the start of the meeting, the pastor asked everyone who "wasn't there for the first time" to please stand up. So 99% of the people stand up, leaving my companion, investigator and I sitting along with a few other people scattered throughout the large auditorium. At which point the pastor said, "if you're standing, please introduce yourself to someone sitting near you." We were suddenly facing smiling faces and handshakes from every direction as people welcomed us and told us "glad to see you" and "y'all don't be strangers" etc.

It was very memorable.

Yes. That is very welcoming. The bishopric could say something like, "Welcome. If you are seated near someone you don't know, be sure to introduce yourself before we leave today." They also have cool praise bands. Perhaps not for LDS sacrament meetings, though. Edited June 23, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Technically, we do already have that pause built into the schedule now.  Not as much after sacrament meeting but following sunday school, if teachers get out on time, there's a 10-15 minute gap between it and the start of RS and priesthood.

That time gap is not consistently observed....and there is a lot of rushing about and congestion in the halls as everyone moves to a new location. As a former school teacher, I struggle not to make everyone form a single line and follow the teacher silently to the next meeting.