Reverence And Building Design

[Garden Girl]

The issue is the noise in the period just before sacrament meeting begins. I have no problem with kids in the meeting. That can be dealt with. I had 7 of them. We used to have "cry rooms" for that purpose back in the olden days.

 

This is what I was remembering and going to ask about... when I last attended as an active member (before I went inactive at age 20), the building designs had a glassed in "crying room" where  children could be taken.  It was part of the chapel with speakers that parents could listen to the service while letting their little ones move around, etc if they got too restless or fussy... They were given the sacrament along with the other ward members...

When I reactivated at age 55, I was surprised to notice that there were no longer crying rooms... wonder whose bright idea that was... now we have numerous parents/children sitting out in the foyer during sacrament meeting.  There is, however, a speaker that can be turned on/off in the seating area so they can listen even though they are not actually part of the chapel.  Does anyone know why the "crying rooms" were done away with?

 

GG

 

Edit to add:  In regard to socializing... fellowshipping... once a month we have "Linger Longer" where we serve a simple meal (prepared at home with hot foods in crock pots, etc.  No one is to be preparing the food in the kitchen during meetings).  It's very successful.  We set up tables in the cultural hall the Wednesday night before, and so quickly put the food out, and everyone has a good time visiting.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Garden Girl

[Bernard Gui]

This is what I was remembering and going to ask about... when I last attended as an active member (before I went inactive at age 20), the building designs had a glassed in "crying room" where  children could be taken.  It was part of the chapel with speakers that parents could listen to the service while letting their little ones move around, etc if they got too restless or fussy... They were given the sacrament along with the other ward members...

When I reactivated at age 55, I was surprised to notice that there were no longer crying rooms... wonder whose bright idea that was... now we have numerous parents/children sitting out in the foyer during sacrament meeting.  There is, however, a speaker that can be turned on/off in the seating area so they can listen even though they are not actually part of the chapel.  Does anyone know why the "crying rooms" were done away with?

 

GG

 

Edit to add:  In regard to socializing... fellowshipping... once a month we have "Linger Longer" where we serve a simple meal (prepared at home with hot foods in crock pots, etc.  No one is to be preparing the food in the kitchen during meetings).  It's very successful.  We set up tables in the cultural hall the Wednesday night before, and so quickly put the food out, and everyone has a good time visiting.

Our stake center had a cry room as you described in 1964. I don't recall being in a chapel built since then that has one.

For your potluck (we are considering that) to work, are you the last ward in the building?

[Bernard Gui]

A cry room could easily be set up with a camera, laptop, and screen in a room other than the chapel.

[HappyJackWagon]

I think Gui is on to something when he talks about the physical building being an impediment to reverence and not only for the reasons he stated. The functionality of the buildings means there is more noise but noise (AKA fellowshipping, welcoming, being generally happy to see each other) isn't necessarily the same thing as lack of reverence. Reverence and silence are not synonymns.

 

Instead of thinking about ways the design of the church adds to the noise maybe we should think about how the design and decoration, use of art, symbols, music, etc add to a feeling of awe and reverence for God and Jesus. In other words, aside from the organ music and hymns during Sacrament Meeting, what else in the chapel inspires reverence? The sacrament does, but that isn't the problem. There is nothing of beauty to be inspired by inside the chapel. No art, no cross, no symbol other than a sacrament table covered with a plain white table cloth.

 

I think we should focus less on being quiet and more on having a sense of reverence for deity. Sure, they can appear to be the same thing, but they aren't necessarily. That person having the conversation with a friend may be getting exactly what they need from church services that week.

[Mystery Meat]

Pardon my bluntness, but I think we are looking at this wrong. All wrong. We go to Church to worship and renew covenants. That is objective number 1. I think there is a tendency in the Church to assume that God wants us to go and be social EVEN if it means we have to disrupt the reverence because we are becoming "one" or being friendly. I think that assumption is false. There is no other time to do what we do during sacrament services. The chapel is an ordinance room, yet we treat it like a banquet hall. Step one is getting reverent in the chapel not just when the member of the bishopric gets up to start the meeting, but before the meeting starts (10-15 minutes?). That time should be used to reflect upon our covenants (all of our covenants as the Sacrament renews them all), to take personal inventory, seek the spirit, and contemplate on the Savior's life and Atonement. Once we get there, then we worry about meeting social needs. If you can't meet people's social needs and promote a Spirit of reverence then you side with reverence and worship EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Worst case, we have activities committees who plan activities where fellowshiping and socializing are central. If people don't go to those that tells me they really only want to be social on Sunday, and even then during their meetings when its convenient. You can't sacrifice the most sacred moment of the week, one that can't be replicated without priesthood authority and keys. 

 

Now, I think it is more than acceptable to give a warm, yet reverent, greeting to a person who needs it; someone who you know is struggling or returning to activity. Love and warmth can be communicated quietly, reverently, and quickly. Invite them to come sit by you and your family. Then be reverent together. After the meeting talk, even skip Sunday School (gasp) if you need to (SS is actually not a requirement to hold a recommend). But in my experience, almost none of the pre-meeting socializing I have seen is that sort of fellowshiping. It is often loud, irrelevant and almost always off-topic (not centered on the ordinance, covenants we are renewing or the Savior). What's worse is other people, those who are trying to worship and feel the Spirit, are dependent on other ward members to not distract from the sacred experience that should permeate through every chapel (ORDINANCE ROOM) in the church. No one really knows what any one has been through; what thoughts are weighing heavy on their minds. What if a person is going through sincere repentance and had lost their right to take the sacrament, but now was afforded the opportunity after an extended break. To me, it would be repulsive to have them show up to sacrament meeting and then lose out on such a sacred experience because either (1) they get caught up in the culture of light mindedness and irreverence that abounds in chapels (ORDINANCE ROOOOM!!!) throughout the Church, or (2) they, despite their best efforts to worship and tune to the Spirit, are distracted by Brother Jones and Brother Adams who are talking about (fill in the blank here).

 

A while back I know we had a poster on our board (I believe it was Raingirl) who wanted so badly to have her worship experience so much more sacred. Shame on all of us throughout the Church for not having a culture that allows for worship first and foremost.

 

Long story short, you worry FIRST about getting reverent, even if it means sacrificing socializing at Church.

 

This is a pretty special topic in my heart, if you couldn't tell.  

[Mystery Meat]

I think Gui is on to something when he talks about the physical building being an impediment to reverence and not only for the reasons he stated. The functionality of the buildings means there is more noise but noise (AKA fellowshipping, welcoming, being generally happy to see each other) isn't necessarily the same thing as lack of reverence. Reverence and silence are not synonymns.

 

Instead of thinking about ways the design of the church adds to the noise maybe we should think about how the design and decoration, use of art, symbols, music, etc add to a feeling of awe and reverence for God and Jesus. In other words, aside from the organ music and hymns during Sacrament Meeting, what else in the chapel inspires reverence? The sacrament does, but that isn't the problem. There is nothing of beauty to be inspired by inside the chapel. No art, no cross, no symbol other than a sacrament table covered with a plain white table cloth.

 

I think we should focus less on being quiet and more on having a sense of reverence for deity. Sure, they can appear to be the same thing, but they aren't necessarily. That person having the conversation with a friend may be getting exactly what they need from church services that week.

 

If renewing covenants is not enough in and of itself, nothing ever will be.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Mystery Meat

[mnn727]

Pardon my bluntness, but I think we are looking at this wrong. All wrong. We go to Church to worship and renew covenants. 

We get what YOU believe, however that is not the focus of this thread. Perhaps re-reading the opening post would help.

[HappyJackWagon]

If renewing covenants is enough in and of itself, nothing ever will be.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

When ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me.

 

If we go to church to "worship God" yet fail to reach out in humanity and love to those who are attending with us, then perhaps we are missing a big piece of why we attend and worship God TOGETHER. We each come to our meetings and the ordinance of the sacrament in different places so pretending that we should all be on the exact same page at that moment is counter to the reasons we meet together oft.

 

I really enjoy this thread. Thanks, Gui. It illustrates that there are tangible things we can do that will improve the level of worship in our church each Sunday. Everything from building design, art, music, lighting, fellowship (All which are a part of reverence) can play a role in our or in others devotional experience.

[Mystery Meat]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

When ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me.

 

If we go to church to "worship God" yet fail to reach out in humanity and love to those who are attending with us, then perhaps we are missing a big piece of why we attend and worship God TOGETHER. We each come to our meetings and the ordinance of the sacrament in different places so pretending that we should all be on the exact same page at that moment is counter to the reasons we meet together oft.

 

I really enjoy this thread. Thanks, Gui. It illustrates that there are tangible things we can do that will improve the level of worship in our church each Sunday. Everything from building design, art, music, lighting, fellowship (All which are a part of reverence) can play a role in our or in others devotional experience.

 

Nothing, is going to do more good, or put another way, there is no greater service we can do for each other at Church on Sunday then providing a spirit of quiet reflection, reverence and worship. There will be power in the sacrament, members will draw near unto the Savior and all of the "sticky" issues that we obsess about on this board will be meaningless. 

[Mystery Meat]

We get what YOU believe, however that is not the focus of this thread. Perhaps re-reading the opening post would help.

 

I think I have a fine grasp on the OP. His post was about how the building design detracts from reverence. Implicit in his post was the fact that people want to be social and because there are so many entry points into the chapel, people can't be social out in the foyer(s) because people are coming in from every which way. My point, which is not off topic, is that there are some faulty assumptions in his post. It shouldn't matter how many foyers there are because people should be in their seats early for sacrament meeting (according to Elder Nelson) and should be quiet and reflecting (according to Elder's Oaks, Nelson and President Packer). 

[ksfisher]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

 

When ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me.

 

If we go to church to "worship God" yet fail to reach out in humanity and love to those who are attending with us, then perhaps we are missing a big piece of why we attend and worship God TOGETHER. We each come to our meetings and the ordinance of the sacrament in different places so pretending that we should all be on the exact same page at that moment is counter to the reasons we meet together oft.

 

I really enjoy this thread. Thanks, Gui. It illustrates that there are tangible things we can do that will improve the level of worship in our church each Sunday. Everything from building design, art, music, lighting, fellowship (All which are a part of reverence) can play a role in our or in others devotional experience.

 

I believe that we can do both, fellowship as well as increase reverence, regardless of how well the building helps or doesn't.

 

First, I believe that sacrament meeting is a sacred and holy time.  Our conduct in the chapel should be as close as possible to how we conduct ourselves in the temple.  After all, sacred ordinances are the center of both experiences.  Our reverence in the chapel can help visitors feel the Spirit and will help them understand our love for and devotion to the Savior.

 

After sacrament meeting I've always found that there's plenty of time to visit and greet new people.  If there isn't room in a foyer there always seems to be plenty of hall space.  Everyone seems to be able to find time to say hello either before they get to the Sunday School room or when they get there. 

 

I believe that if we decide that we are going to make the chapel a sacred space that we can do it.  No, that doesn't mean complete silence.  But it does mean appropriate conduct for the situation.  Children will still act like children, and there will always be someone we need to say something to.  But by focusing our in chapel experience on the Savior we provide a place for all to meditate on the atonement and God's love for them. 

 

Changes in building design could aid this, but it seems to be more in the hands of the people in the building.  We need to decide what type of conduct is appropriate for the time and space that we are in.

[Rain]

I can't find it now but it was related to me that one of the GA's once said we must expect some restlessness from chilkdren as they are adult spirits cramped up in those small bodies.

President Monson in my regional conference 5-10years ago.

[Rain]

How about congregating in the closed-off cultural hall before the meeting and then repairing to the chapel 5 minutes before the meeting starts, with ushers at the chapel doors and prelude music playing in the chapel? Or opening the folding doors and entering the chapel from the rear as the bishopric and ushers greet members as they pass by?

I could go with that as long as people could choose when to go in. It seems contrary to children's nature, but I found that when we arrived early, before most people came into the chapel that my children were more reverent. I also found that time very good for me to feel the Spirit during the meeting. So I think, and I said it here recently, that it is good to socialize beforehand, but the chapel doors should somehow be a signal for reverence and just let people come in when they are ready.

[mnn727]

I think I have a fine grasp on the OP. His post was about how the building design detracts from reverence. Implicit in his post was the fact that people want to be social and because there are so many entry points into the chapel, people can't be social out in the foyer(s) because people are coming in from every which way. My point, which is not off topic, is that there are some faulty assumptions in his post. It shouldn't matter how many foyers there are because people should be in their seats early for sacrament meeting (according to Elder Nelson) and should be quiet and reflecting (according to Elder's Oaks, Nelson and President Packer). 

 You say there is no need to fellowship and you quote some leaders about reverence.

The thrust of this thread is how to fellowship while maintaining reverence.

You don't want to fellowship -- fine, but that's the topic we're discussing here

[Rain]

Elder Bednar had an article in the October Ensign about missionay work and family history/temple work. He said we tend to compartmentalize those and focus on one or the other, but what we should be doing is making them one. That bringing the missions of the church together is stronger than the sum of their parts.

This subject is like that. We could focus on reverence in the chapel and then later focus on socializing, but in this thread we can already see that by focusing on them both together we are stronger in both.

[mnn727]

  Our reverence in the chapel can help visitors feel the Spirit and will help them understand our love for and devotion to the Savior.

 

After sacrament meeting I've always found that there's plenty of time to visit and greet new people.  If there isn't room in a foyer there always seems to be plenty of hall space. to.  But by focusing our in chapel experience on the Savior we provide a place for all to meditate on the atonement and God's love for them. 

 

1 as a convert (of 22+ years now) Part of what drew me in was how friendly everyone was, saying hello, introducing themselves, finding out about me -- in the chapel.

2. Apparently you have not been in a building with multiple wards overlapping meetings. There's no room in the halls (until after Sunday School starts)and another Ward trying to get into the chapel. The Cultural hall is used for both Priesthood and Sunday school, so that's out. 

 

Not sure how it came about in our minds that: silence = reverence and talking =/= reverence

[Mystery Meat]

 You say there is no need to fellowship and you quote some leaders about reverence.

The thrust of this thread is how to fellowship while maintaining reverence.

You don't want to fellowship -- fine, but that's the topic we're discussing here

 

Haha. Wow. I don't want to fellowship, huh? Now we are putting words in my mouth. That is being pretty dishonest and laying a pretty egregious charge at my feet, don't you think? It is uncivil and pretty much erodes civil dialogue when you start making those types of accusations. I have never once said that I don't want to fellowship. I even allowed for some fellowshiping before sacrament meeting in multiple posts on here. But yes, I think, and the brethren agree it would seem, that sacrament meeting (and the time before it as Elder Nelson encouraged us to arrive early to quietly reflect) is first and foremost for worship and reflection. My post was on topic because I think trying to discuss reverence in sacrament meeting without making it priority 1, even if that means sacrificing current church culture and customs, seems to be inconsistent with the teachings of the brethren and even their current focus.

 

But hey, what do I know? I don't want to fellowship.

[Calm]

 There is nothing of beauty to be inspired by inside the chapel. 

Most wards I've been in have a massive flora display or two.  Quite lovely.

 

I do think there could be more religious art though.  It would imo help set the tone.  I do not understand why it is in the hallways to do that and not in the chapel.  I could see if it was garish, in your face art that would distract someone from those at the pulpit, but it isn't that at all.

[Calm]

Everyone seems to be able to find time to say hello either before they get to the Sunday School room or when they get there. 

 

Have you talked to very many Primary or youth teachers?  Many in my experience feel quite isolated from other adults in the ward.  They have to hurry to their classes to avoid a child getting there before them and have to stay until the last one goes, which can often be late because if they are young and they are required to wait for a parent and the parent is off socializing.

 

And parents with a lot of kids have to get them all to their classes before getting to their own and then if kind to their teachers, hurry off after class to pick them up, at which point the kids are more likely to be pulling them out to the car rather than allowing them to have a nice talk with their fellow members.

Edited June 23, 2015 by calmoriah

[HappyJackWagon]

Nothing, is going to do more good, or put another way, there is no greater service we can do for each other at Church on Sunday then providing a spirit of quiet reflection, reverence and worship. There will be power in the sacrament, members will draw near unto the Savior and all of the "sticky" issues that we obsess about on this board will be meaningless. 

I understand your thought process on this, and for many people I think you're right. But for some, like the single mom who is overwhelmed with caring for her kids and is in desperate need of connecting with other adults, the fellowship may be even more meaningful than the "quiet reflection." This is just another way of saying that different people have different needs and it is helpful to recognize that.

[Mystery Meat]

I understand your thought process on this, and for many people I think you're right. But for some, like the single mom who is overwhelmed with caring for her kids and is in desperate need of connecting with other adults, the fellowship may be even more meaningful than the "quiet reflection." This is just another way of saying that different people have different needs and it is helpful to recognize that.

 

I totally understand. But if that socializing takes place in the chapel during quiet reflection time, as President Packer said it prevents the other from having their needs met.

 

Time and place.

[HappyJackWagon]

Most wards I've been in have a massive flora display or two.  Quite lovely.

 

I do think there could be more religious art though.  It would imo help set the tone.  I do not understand why it is in the hallways to do that and not in the chapel.  I could see if it was garish, in your face art that would distract someone from those at the pulpit, but it isn't that at all.

We have a gigantic teel vase with a fake flower arrangement that has been in the building as long as the teel carpet. Not so lovely or inspiring

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I totally understand. But if that socializing takes place in the chapel during quiet reflection time, as President Packer said it prevents the other from having their needs met.

 

Time and place.

 

It seems like either way you will leave people with needs unmet. If quiet reflection time is really so important, it seems like we could cut 5-10 minutes from speakers, and incorporate 5-10 minutes of silence towards the beginning of the meeting (after the announcements and before the sacrament hymn maybe?). Maybe even play some nice music during it. Human nature being what it is, and church design being what it is, I don't see any other way of achieving this.

Edited June 23, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Mystery Meat]

It seems like either way you will leave people with needs unmet. If quiet reflection time is really so important, it seems like we could cut 5-10 minutes from speakers, and incorporate 5-10 minutes of silence towards the beginning of the meeting (after the announcements and before the sacrament hymn maybe?). Maybe even play some nice music during it. Human nature being what it is, and church design being what it is, I don't see any other way of achieving this.

 

I don't dislike your idea, but you still have the problem of irreverence (yes, quiet voices is part of being reverent in the Chapel) in an ordinance room before the meeting starts. I think that is non-negotiable. Until we treat the chapel like we would the ordinance rooms in the temple we are not where we need to be.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Mystery Meat

[Mystery Meat]

It seems like either way you will leave people with needs unmet. If quiet reflection time is really so important, it seems like we could cut 5-10 minutes from speakers, and incorporate 5-10 minutes of silence towards the beginning of the meeting (after the announcements and before the sacrament hymn maybe?). Maybe even play some nice music during it. Human nature being what it is, and church design being what it is, I don't see any other way of achieving this.

 

Also, I disagree that not everyone's needs can be met. People can be social and friendly and talk and chat at other times outside of the chapel (and Sunday worship services).