Nine Murdered In South Carolina Church, Suspect Captured

Russell C McGregor · June 19, 2015

No, you misunderstand. I write sensible things here all of the time. I would suspect that you would agree with some of them. But I'm agreeing with YOU. That's something altogether different.

(Sorry, I couldn't help myself!)

Oh I see. Yes it is different.

I hope it didn't hurt.

Duncan · June 19, 2015

The Church can't comment on every tragedy, but when the tragedy happens inside a house of Christian worship, then it probably should join EVERY other Christian church in showing its solidarity. It's kind of the polite thing to do. That's why I'm sure I'm just missing the statement because it's the first page in the Public Relations handbook.

And the 200th Anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo!!!! My Irish relative who fought there then would be outraged the Church hasn't said a word!!! the Nerve of these people!!! would be nice they comment on International tragedies and not just American ones. Maybe the Church doesn't want these killers to get anymore attention then they are already getting and just let justice take its course

Edited June 19, 2015 by Duncan

mormonnewb · June 19, 2015

And the 200th Anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo!!!! My Irish relative who fought there then would be outraged the Church hasn't said a word!!! the Nerve of these people!!! would be nice they comment on International tragedies and not just American ones. Maybe the Church doesn't want these killers to get anymore attention then they are already getting and just let justice take its course

Well, since we all know the Brethren read this board regularly to get clues on how to run the Church, if we haven't already put out a statement, let's just draft up a quick one. It won't take more than five minutes, I promise. In fact, just copy the statement that every other church is issuing.

Also, you probably haven't noticed this before, but this is an American church (Meet the Mormons vignettes notwithstanding). You might not have also noticed but we have a particular history with people of African descent. Many such persons think that Kanye West was right, "[Thomas Monson] doesn't care about black people." We all know this to be untrue, but perhaps, someone could explain to the PR department so that I won't have to try to use the Church's silence about the anniversary of Waterloo to defend it during this year's Fourth of July cookout.

Duncan · June 19, 2015

Well, since we all know the Brethren read this board regularly to get clues on how to run the Church, if we haven't already put out a statement, let's just draft up a quick one. It won't take more than five minutes, I promise. In fact, just copy the statement that every other church is issuing.

Also, you probably haven't noticed this before, but this is an American church (Meet the Mormons vignettes notwithstanding). You might not have also noticed but we have a particular history with people of African descent. Many such persons think that Kanye West was right, "[Thomas Monson] doesn't care about black people." We all know this to be untrue, but perhaps, someone could explain to the PR department so that I won't have to try to use the Church's silence about the anniversary of Waterloo to defend it during this year's Fourth of July cookout.

well, I don't know who Kanye West is but maybe you should write the Church PR dept. that can't take more then five minutes!! and we in the British Commonwealth also celebrate July the 4th, it's the day we got rid of those pesky colonies

Edited June 19, 2015 by Duncan

Calm · June 19, 2015

I had the same idea. Here is the contact page:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/contact/

thesometimesaint · June 19, 2015

Well, since we all know the Brethren read this board regularly to get clues on how to run the Church, if we haven't already put out a statement, let's just draft up a quick one. It won't take more than five minutes, I promise. In fact, just copy the statement that every other church is issuing.

Also, you probably haven't noticed this before, but this is an American church (Meet the Mormons vignettes notwithstanding). You might not have also noticed but we have a particular history with people of African descent. Many such persons think that Kanye West was right, "[Thomas Monson] doesn't care about black people." We all know this to be untrue, but perhaps, someone could explain to the PR department so that I won't have to try to use the Church's silence about the anniversary of Waterloo to defend it during this year's Fourth of July cookout.

Does that mean that all of Christianity is a Palestinian church?

Edited June 19, 2015 by thesometimesaint

mormonnewb · June 19, 2015

DELETED.

Edited June 19, 2015 by mormonnewb

LoudmouthMormon · June 19, 2015

And I admit that I wouldn't feel a whole lot safer in Sacrament meeting if half the congregation was packin' heat.

I understand. "Feeling safe" is big for a lot of folks. Nobody wants to feel unsafe, right?

If you don't mind me asking, Russell, what state do you live in? Here in CO, someone did the math and figured out that people who walk around in public probably run into a handful of conceal carry permit holders every day. Whenever I encounter someone living in a shall-issue state talking about their feelings, I like to point out the likely number of armed random citizens in their midst, and ask them how it makes them feel. Then I ask them about the last time they actually were in the vicinity of gun violence. Trying to appeal to their rational nature, you see.

In my ward, there are probably more than a dozen members with conceal carry permits. I know 4 or 5 people certainly do. In SLC, I knew a bishop who had one. But, our church policy is pretty clear that the brethren don't want us armed at church, which makes our LDS churches gun-free zones, like the one in Charleston.

How are you feeling about all this, Russell and mormonweb?

Buckeye · June 19, 2015

^mormonnewb,

^{My prayers are with you and many others right now who are hurting in ways that I cannot. I've tried to think of what I could offer to give you hope or solace. I was coming up blank until my 14-year-old son gave me the answer.}

^{As some personal background, you need to know that my family comes from southern stock. My kids are taught about their confederate ancestry. They are also taught how the embrace of slavery destroyed our family - temporally and spiritually - and how the restored gospel taught by two Utah boys in the 1950s gave us renewed hope and faith in the Savior's atonement. I teach them that latter-day prophets are not limited to just men with keys, but includes all those who God directs to point us towards him - none more important to my family than the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.}

^{For family vacation this summer, we've been planning a Missouri/Nauvoo church history tour. We will visit places of great joy (Nauvoo, Independence, etc.) and places of great sorrow (Haun's Mill, Carthage, etc.). Along the way, we're also stopping in both St. Louis and K.C. to add two more stadiums to our belt (we have a goal to take all the kids to all 30 stadiums before they leave home).}

^{Last Sunday, during final plans for vacation, my 14-year-old son said that he'd done some research and learned that Dred Scott was buried in St. Louis. He'd studied Dred Scott in history this year and strongly identified with his story. He}^{asked if we could visit his grave and pay some respects, even if it meant missing the Cardinals game. I was touched by his willingness to sacrifice. We won't have to miss the game, but he'd do so if necessary.}

^{So in a few weeks - actually, on Independence Day - my family will sit down alongside Dred Scott, along the banks of the big muddy, and talk about who we are. We'll then loop through Missouri and end back up a little ways north. Same river, just a different bend. And we'll sit down alongside Joseph, Emma, and Hyrum, and talk about who we are.}

^{I don't know if this story can help much, but it's all I can offer.}^{I've seen first hand the fulfillment of Elijah's promise that the hearts of the children will turn to their fathers. I've seen it this very week - as my teenage son expressed a desire to pay respects to a man who our ancestors cursed (temporally and spiritually). There is yet hope for America, and for the Church. Peace be with you, brother.}

why me · June 19, 2015

I think that the United States has a problem with mass murder. It seems to be organic inside American life. We need to remember all those children who were killed less than two years ago, not to mention all the other people who were killed in mass murders. So, the question is: why so many in the united states? What is it about the american system that creates such people?

The tragedy in south carolina seems to be related to media coverage. Here we have a young man, who is now 21, feeling that black people want to take over the united states. This is not a rational conclusion to make but something made him draw that conclusion. What was that something? When we look at the media in the US and how it has attempted to create a whte/black problem and how al sharpton was out and about blaming white police officers and how he also used it to create a white/black problem, Not to mention the media coverage of race riots etc, it should be no surprise that a crazy idiot would react in the way that he did. Or shock jocks of all races using combative language for ratings. Sometimes americans need to reflect on their own society and how news is portrayed and created and how it may influence the mentally ill. Not to mention the president also making it a white/black problem, before this terrible incident took place, without realizing that america is a multiracial society and not a biracial society.

There needs to be honest dialogue about just what america is and what it has become and how it became the way it is. And to understand that mental illness is rampant throughout american society and some are going to act out their own fantasies with guns because unfortunately, american society is full with violent vocabulary and rhetoric and mental health is an issue that seems to be neglected and underfunded. Finally why does the united states have a problem with mass murder, a symptom that seems to be distinctly american when compared to other western societies.

I understand that the french government has issued a warning to french citizens visiting the US, warning them of the violent gun culture in the united states. Cause for reflection?

Edited June 19, 2015 by why me

smac97 · June 19, 2015

I'd rather this thread not devolve into a debate about gun rights or gun control.

Thanks,

-Smac

Buckeye · June 19, 2015

I'd rather this thread not devolve into a debate about gun rights or gun control.

Thanks,

-Smac

In that case, you should avoid the Charleston newspaper: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/18/charleston_post_and_courier_church_shooting_headline_blocked_by_gun_shop.html

Jeanne · June 19, 2015

I have been keeping up to date on this sad story. So much involved and unfortunate that a church is a place of retaliation. My heart breaks and again confused and frustrated at how this supremecy of white still sets this country in a backward motion...not to mention the right of gun ownership. Wishing much peace for this community and the state. May we find someday a way to rid ourselves of this contention. Color me sad.

smac97 · June 19, 2015

In that case, you should avoid the Charleston newspaper: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/18/charleston_post_and_courier_church_shooting_headline_blocked_by_gun_shop.html

Again, I'd rather this thread not devolve into a debate about gun rights or gun control.

Thanks,

-Smac

Scott Lloyd · June 19, 2015

Also, you probably haven't noticed this before, but this is an American church (Meet the Mormons vignettes notwithstanding).

By "American" church, do you mean a USA church?

I learned last week that the percentage of Latin American members of the Church is almost as high as that of members in the United States (40 percent vs. 43 percent).

Edited June 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

smac97 · June 19, 2015

My wife just asked if I had seen a statement from the Church on the shooting. I looked on LDS Newsroom, but I didn't see it there. And yes, I'm familiar with Google, but it isn't always the best source for finding current news items (it sometimes takes the bots a few hours to do their thing).

Anyone have the quick link to the Church's statement in which we join others in expressing our sorrow for what happened in Charleston last night?

See here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65521-the-freedmens-bureau-project-broadcast-on-619-1100-am-mdt/

Thanks,

-Smac

carbon dioxide · June 19, 2015

Not sure why the Church would have to make a statement on this as if there really is a question of what the position of the Church is. I think the whole thing of whether this is a "hate" crime is really dumb. When does killing 9 innocent people regardless of who they are not a crime of hate. Nobody shoots 9 people and kills them because they love them and thought shooting them was a better expression of love than sending them flowers or a gift card.

smac97 · June 19, 2015

Not sure why the Church would have to make a statement on this as if there really is a question of what the position of the Church is. I think the whole thing of whether this is a "hate" crime is really dumb. When does killing 9 innocent people regardless of who they are not a crime of hate. Nobody shoots 9 people and kills them because they love them and thought shooting them was a better expression of love than sending them flowers or a gift card.

News reports indicate that the perp has confessed, and that his motive was to start a "race war."

I'm not entirely comfortable with the concept of "hate crimes," but this particular perp appears to have been motivated by hate.

Thanks,

-Smac

mormonnewb · June 19, 2015

^mormonnewb,
^{My prayers are with you and many others right now who are hurting in ways that I cannot. I've tried to think of what I could offer to give you hope or solace. I was coming up blank until my 14-year-old son gave me the answer.}
^{As some personal background, you need to know that my family comes from southern stock. My kids are taught about their confederate ancestry. They are also taught how the embrace of slavery destroyed our family - temporally and spiritually - and how the restored gospel taught by two Utah boys in the 1950s gave us renewed hope and faith in the Savior's atonement. I teach them that latter-day prophets are not limited to just men with keys, but includes all those who God directs to point us towards him - none more important to my family than the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.}
^{For family vacation this summer, we've been planning a Missouri/Nauvoo church history tour. We will visit places of great joy (Nauvoo, Independence, etc.) and places of great sorrow (Haun's Mill, Carthage, etc.). Along the way, we're also stopping in both St. Louis and K.C. to add two more stadiums to our belt (we have a goal to take all the kids to all 30 stadiums before they leave home).}
^{Last Sunday, during final plans for vacation, my 14-year-old son said that he'd done some research and learned that Dred Scott was buried in St. Louis. He'd studied Dred Scott in history this year and strongly identified with his story. He}^{asked if we could visit his grave and pay some respects, even if it meant missing the Cardinals game. I was touched by his willingness to sacrifice. We won't have to miss the game, but he'd do so if necessary.}
^{So in a few weeks - actually, on Independence Day - my family will sit down alongside Dred Scott, along the banks of the big muddy, and talk about who we are. We'll then loop through Missouri and end back up a little ways north. Same river, just a different bend. And we'll sit down alongside Joseph, Emma, and Hyrum, and talk about who we are.}
^{I don't know if this story can help much, but it's all I can offer.}^{I've seen first hand the fulfillment of Elijah's promise that the hearts of the children will turn to their fathers. I've seen it this very week - as my teenage son expressed a desire to pay respects to a man who our ancestors cursed (temporally and spiritually). There is yet hope for America, and for the Church. Peace be with you, brother.}

Wow! Your son is an amazing young man! You might have guessed this, but I'm black.

Scott Lloyd · June 19, 2015

News reports indicate that the perp has confessed, and that his motive was to start a "race war."
I'm not entirely comfortable with the concept of "hate crimes," but this particular perp appears to have been motivated by hate.
Thanks,
-Smac

Reportedly, the motive of Charles Manson in inducing his followers to commit the Tate-Labianca murders of 1969 was to start a race war.

Eerily reminiscent. Could it be a copycat crime?

Edited June 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

Duncan · June 19, 2015

Wow! Your son is an amazing young man! You might have guessed this, but I'm black. And I was in Missouri just this week and it didn't even occur to me to visit the Dred Scott site.
I'm VERY hopeful for the future as I think that most kids get it. And increasingly, even a few of us "old folks" are coming around.

did you see this and Elder Christofferson's remarks about Charleston?

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765675804/LDS-Church-to-make-historic-announcement-about-Civil-War-era-records.html?pg=all

ttribe · June 19, 2015

Not sure why the Church would have to make a statement on this as if there really is a question of what the position of the Church is. I think the whole thing of whether this is a "hate" crime is really dumb. When does killing 9 innocent people regardless of who they are not a crime of hate. Nobody shoots 9 people and kills them because they love them and thought shooting them was a better expression of love than sending them flowers or a gift card.

The idea behind "hate crime" charges is that the victim was chosen specifically because of his/her race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

FBI Definition: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/overview

News reports indicate that the perp has confessed, and that his motive was to start a "race war."
I'm not entirely comfortable with the concept of "hate crimes," but this particular perp appears to have been motivated by hate.
Thanks,
-Smac

Hate, mental illness, or some combination of the two.

Tacenda · June 19, 2015

I understand. "Feeling safe" is big for a lot of folks. Nobody wants to feel unsafe, right?
If you don't mind me asking, Russell, what state do you live in? Here in CO, someone did the math and figured out that people who walk around in public probably run into a handful of conceal carry permit holders every day. Whenever I encounter someone living in a shall-issue state talking about their feelings, I like to point out the likely number of armed random citizens in their midst, and ask them how it makes them feel. Then I ask them about the last time they actually were in the vicinity of gun violence. Trying to appeal to their rational nature, you see.
In my ward, there are probably more than a dozen members with conceal carry permits. I know 4 or 5 people certainly do. In SLC, I knew a bishop who had one. But, our church policy is pretty clear that the brethren don't want us armed at church, which makes our LDS churches gun-free zones, like the one in Charleston.
How are you feeling about all this, Russell and mormonweb?

Maybe this tradgedy will change things. We'll be like the Wild West...

I like what Jon Stewart had to say, how racism persists in this country. For instance, highway signs with confederate generals that wanted slavery are in South Carolina. They should be taken down. I like how Jon put it, it is racism wallpaper, or something like that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nid=top_pb_wplogo

Tacenda · June 19, 2015

I understand. "Feeling safe" is big for a lot of folks. Nobody wants to feel unsafe, right?
If you don't mind me asking, Russell, what state do you live in? Here in CO, someone did the math and figured out that people who walk around in public probably run into a handful of conceal carry permit holders every day. Whenever I encounter someone living in a shall-issue state talking about their feelings, I like to point out the likely number of armed random citizens in their midst, and ask them how it makes them feel. Then I ask them about the last time they actually were in the vicinity of gun violence. Trying to appeal to their rational nature, you see.
In my ward, there are probably more than a dozen members with conceal carry permits. I know 4 or 5 people certainly do. In SLC, I knew a bishop who had one. But, our church policy is pretty clear that the brethren don't want us armed at church, which makes our LDS churches gun-free zones, like the one in Charleston.
How are you feeling about all this, Russell and mormonweb?

Maybe this tradgedy will change things. We'll be like the Wild West...

I like what Jon Stewart had to say, how racism persists in this country. For instance, highway signs with confederate generals that wanted slavery are in South Carolina. They should be taken down. I like how Jon put it, it is racism wallpaper, or something like that.

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2015/06/19/watch-jon-stewarts-scathing-commentary-on-the-charleston-shooting/?mod=e2fb

Edited June 19, 2015 by Tacenda

ttribe · June 19, 2015

I understand. "Feeling safe" is big for a lot of folks. Nobody wants to feel unsafe, right?

If you don't mind me asking, Russell, what state do you live in? Here in CO, someone did the math and figured out that people who walk around in public probably run into a handful of conceal carry permit holders every day. Whenever I encounter someone living in a shall-issue state talking about their feelings, I like to point out the likely number of armed random citizens in their midst, and ask them how it makes them feel. Then I ask them about the last time they actually were in the vicinity of gun violence. Trying to appeal to their rational nature, you see.

In my ward, there are probably more than a dozen members with conceal carry permits. I know 4 or 5 people certainly do. In SLC, I knew a bishop who had one. But, our church policy is pretty clear that the brethren don't want us armed at church, which makes our LDS churches gun-free zones, like the one in Charleston.

How are you feeling about all this, Russell and mormonweb?

Russell lives in New Zealand.

BTW, I have a C&C permit, but I don't carry at church for a variety of reasons; the Church's policy on weapons among them.

Edited June 19, 2015 by ttribe

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