Nine Murdered In South Carolina Church, Suspect Captured

[mormonnewb]

did you see this and Elder Christofferson's remarks about Charleston?

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765675804/LDS-Church-to-make-historic-announcement-about-Civil-War-era-records.html?pg=all

Thanks. Obvjously, the Church had been planning this announcement for quite some time, so it makes sense why the Church waited until today to have an apostle speak on the Charleston tragedy.

I do find it interesting that while I reflexively jumped to the conclusion that the Church was being callous with regards to black people, some of you, just as reflexively, jumped to defend the Church for a stance it didn't even take (ie, that the Church should NOT make a statement about the tragedy).

Maybe this is a lesson that both Team Church and Team Critic should look before we leap.

[Duncan]

Thanks. Obvjously, the Church had been planning this announcement for quite some time, so it makes sense why the Church waited until today to have an apostle speak on the Charleston tragedy.

I do find it interesting that while I reflexively jumped to the conclusion that the Church was being callous with regards to black people, some of you, just as reflexively, jumped to defend the Church for a stance it didn't even take (ie, that the Church should NOT make a statement about the tragedy).

Maybe this is a lesson that both Team Church and Team Critic should look before we leap.

 

true! 

[LoudmouthMormon]

It looks like Mr. Roof appears in court in the next half hour or so.  When compared to eternal justice, earthly justice is often a hollow, un-fulfilling, and inadequate substitute.  But I hope we humans manage to do it right enough to somehow benefit the victim's families and loved ones.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks. Obvjously, the Church had been planning this announcement for quite some time, so it makes sense why the Church waited until today to have an apostle speak on the Charleston tragedy.

I do find it interesting that while I reflexively jumped to the conclusion that the Church was being callous with regards to black people, some of you, just as reflexively, jumped to defend the Church for a stance it didn't even take (ie, that the Church should NOT make a statement about the tragedy).

Maybe this is a lesson that both Team Church and Team Critic should look before we leap.

I didn't read anybody here as saying the Church "should not make a statement."

[Calm]

Reportedly, the motive of Charles Manson in inducing his followers to commit the Tate-Labianca murders of 1969 was to start a race war.

 

Eerily reminiscent. Could it be a copycat crime?

I don't see much resemblance in the details. Did he mention Manson? Otherwise given the publicity level I would think that more recent white supremacists' actions and rants would be where he got his twisted ideas.

It seems to me his confession of his purpose will more likely have the opposite effect save on those who already have extreme hate.

[Calm]

Maybe this tradgedy will change things. We'll be like the Wild West...

I like what Jon Stewart had to say, how racism persists in this country.

I have been in a number of countries. Racism persists in all of them, targets varied of course. The US is so far the most verbal about recognizing it exists and taking obvious action both on an individual level and public in my experience. It is talked about as something bad all the time, all over. Needs lots of improvement, but at least it isn't being ignored or glorified on a wider level.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't see much resemblance in the details. Did he mention Manson? Otherwise given the publicity level I would think that more recent white supremacists' actions and rants would be where he got his twisted ideas.

It seems to me his confession of his purpose will more likely have the opposite effect save on those who already have extreme hate.

It's the terminology "start a race war" that got me thinking along these lines. I don't know of any white supremacist groups that have as their stated purpose to start a race war.

 

If you are old enough (as I am) to remember much about the Manson trials (or even if you have read much about them), you'll remember that this motive was a key part of the prosecution's case.

 

Of course, Manson's thought processes are extremely twisted, but then, this guy's seem to be as well.

[thesometimesaint]

We've already had a race war in the US. It is called the U S Civil War, though there was nothing civil about it. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33206084

 

 

 

"I forgive you" said one victim's daughter, fighting back tears.

 

A woman who identified herself as the daughter of Ethel Lance said: "You took something very precious from me. I will never talk to her ever again. I will never be able to hold her again, but I forgive you. And have mercy on your soul."

 

Anthony Thompson, a relative of Myra Thompson, [said]  "I forgive you and my family forgives you," he said.

 

 

I don't have any experience with murderers, but I do have experience with rapists, child molestors, and parents who fail to protect their children from evil.  The people being quoted really are on to something here.

 

Forgiveness blesses the people hurt.  It may or it may not help the person who did the wrong, but it always blesses those who have been hurt.

Edited June 19, 2015 by LoudmouthMormon

[Scott Lloyd]

We've already had a race war in the US. It is called the U S Civil War, though there was nothing civil about it. 

Only if you apply a quirky definition of race war.

 

Race war connotes one or more races on one side fighting against one or more races on another. That doesn't describe the Civil War.

 

... though there was nothing civil about it.

 

Some refer to it as "the war of Northern aggression."

 

For my part, I prefer "the war between the states" or, perhaps, "the war to put down the Southern rebellion."

[TheSkepticChristian]

The idea behind "hate crime" charges is that the victim was chosen specifically because of his/her race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

 

 

It is called terrorism, but nobody is calling it that. 

 

terrorism - " the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal" 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism

[thesometimesaint]

The United States of America never recognized the Confederate States of America as a legal entity. The CSA was formed to maintain the White RACE in Supremacy in the owning of the black RACE held in their "peculiar institution" of chattel slavery.

SEE http://www.civil-war.net/pages/southcarolina_declaration.asp

 

There was nothing noble, heroic, or even justifiable about the CSA and their heritage in a damnable flag. A heritage of starting a war to keep African Americans as chattel slaves. A heritage of treason against the nation. A heritage of terrorism against African Americans. A heritage of lynching and murders of African Americans. A heritage of maintaining Jim Crow and segregation. A heritage of attempting to impose a mythical white supremacy over any person not of European heritage.

That's some heritage in a single symbol...

[LoudmouthMormon]

It is called terrorism, but nobody is calling it that. 

 

 

Actually, I'm hearing people calling it that all over the place.  My liberal buddies are calling it terrorism, as a way to bash the religious right.  I'm hearing it across facebook and websites like this one.  The conservative guy standing in for Dennis Prager on the radio this morning called it terrorism.

[why me]

What happened in south carolina is not terrorism. It is murder. If this act is considered terrorism then every murder should be considered terrorism since murder can cause terror in those being murdered. I think that the reason why certain people wish this to be called domestic terrorism is to de-emphasis muslim terrorism by organized groups and their supporters. It seems that this 21 year old was not acting for any group and he was a lone wolf in his act of murder. I thnk that we need to be careful just what gets labeled terrorism.

[ttribe]

The United States of America never recognized the Confederate States of America as a legal entity. The CSA was formed to maintain the White RACE in Supremacy in the owning of the black RACE held in their "peculiar institution" of chattel slavery.

SEE http://www.civil-war.net/pages/southcarolina_declaration.asp

 

There was nothing noble, heroic, or even justifiable about the CSA and their heritage in a damnable flag. A heritage of starting a war to keep African Americans as chattel slaves. A heritage of treason against the nation. A heritage of terrorism against African Americans. A heritage of lynching and murders of African Americans. A heritage of maintaining Jim Crow and segregation. A heritage of attempting to impose a mythical white supremacy over any person not of European heritage.

That's some heritage in a single symbol...

 

This has nothing to do with the situation at hand.  Take it somewhere else.

[carbon dioxide]

The idea behind "hate crime" charges is that the victim was chosen specifically because of his/her race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

 

 

I understand the idea but I think the idea is dumb.  Is targeting and killing 9 black people any worse a crime than randomly killing 9 people?  Either way 9 families get to bury their dead.

 

[mormonnewb]

I think that the United States has a problem with mass murder. It seems to be organic inside American life. We need to remember all those children who were killed less than two years ago, not to mention all the other people who were killed in mass murders. So, the question is: why so many in the united states? What is it about the american system that creates such people?

The tragedy in south carolina seems to be related to media coverage. Here we have a young man, who is now 21, feeling that black people want to take over the united states. This is not a rational conclusion to make but something made him draw that conclusion. What was that something? When we look at the media in the US and how it has attempted to create a whte/black problem and how al sharpton was out and about blaming white police officers and how he also used it to create a white/black problem, Not to mention the media coverage of race riots etc, it should be no surprise that a crazy idiot would react in the way that he did. Or shock jocks of all races using combative language for ratings. Sometimes americans need to reflect on their own society and how news is portrayed and created and how it may influence the mentally ill. Not to mention the president also making it a white/black problem, before this terrible incident took place, without realizing that america is a multiracial society and not a biracial society.

There needs to be honest dialogue about just what america is and what it has become and how it became the way it is. And to understand that mental illness is rampant throughout american society and some are going to act out their own fantasies with guns because unfortunately, american society is full with violent vocabulary and rhetoric and mental health is an issue that seems to be neglected and underfunded. Finally why does the united states have a problem with mass murder, a symptom that seems to be distinctly american when compared to other western societies.

I understand that the french government has issued a warning to french citizens visiting the US, warning them of the violent gun culture in the united states. Cause for reflection?

I can't believe I missed this earlier! So was Al Sharpton and the media responsible for the lynching of Emmett Till? The deaths of Medgar Evers, the three civil right workers in Philadelphia, MS, the four little girls in Birmingham? What about the thousands of men, women and children who were lynched ever three days for the first 90 years after the Civil War? Was Rev. Al responsible for those acts of violence too?

To suggest that the violence against black people is CAUSED by acknowledging violence against black people is, well, bizarre. And sadly, it's quite common. This was EXACTLY the charge that was laid against those brave people who spoke out against lynching in the early 20th century -- they were stoking racial hostilities.

Edited June 19, 2015 by mormonnewb

[LoudmouthMormon]

What happened in south carolina is not terrorism. It is murder. If this act is considered terrorism then every murder should be considered terrorism since murder can cause terror in those being murdered. I think that the reason why certain people wish this to be called domestic terrorism is to de-emphasis muslim terrorism by organized groups and their supporters. It seems that this 21 year old was not acting for any group and he was a lone wolf in his act of murder. I thnk that we need to be careful just what gets labeled terrorism.

 

Flying planes into US buildings to provoke a violent response from the US, which would get the Islamic world to shake themselves out of complacency, turn to Allah, and bring back the caliphate = Terrorism.

 

White guy does targeted killing of blacks to provoke a violent response from black communities, which would get whites to shake themselves out of complacency, realize [whatever sound byte white racists are selling], turn to arms and fix things = Not Terrorism.

 

Yeah, not seeing it...

[Scott Lloyd]

The United States of America never recognized the Confederate States of America as a legal entity. The CSA was formed to maintain the White RACE in Supremacy in the owning of the black RACE held in their "peculiar institution" of chattel slavery.

SEE http://www.civil-war.net/pages/southcarolina_declaration.asp

 

There was nothing noble, heroic, or even justifiable about the CSA and their heritage in a damnable flag. A heritage of starting a war to keep African Americans as chattel slaves. A heritage of treason against the nation. A heritage of terrorism against African Americans. A heritage of lynching and murders of African Americans. A heritage of maintaining Jim Crow and segregation. A heritage of attempting to impose a mythical white supremacy over any person not of European heritage.

That's some heritage in a single symbol...

I share your contempt of slavery and of the Southern rebellion.

 

But calling it a "race war" is confusing and inaccurate. Black slaves were not combatants in a war between races except to the extent that some former slaves were enlisted into the Union army. But even with that, "race war" is a false characterization. Whites were fighting each other.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

Flying planes into US buildings to provoke a violent response from the US, which would get the Islamic world to shake themselves out of complacency, turn to Allah, and bring back the caliphate = Terrorism.

 

White guy does targeted killing of blacks to provoke a violent response from black communities, which would get whites to shake themselves out of complacency, realize [whatever sound byte white racists are selling], turn to arms and fix things = Not Terrorism.

 

Yeah, not seeing it...

There is a difference. The men behind the world trade center belonged to an organization that had its own ideology and religious beliefs that wished to strike at the power structures of the united states. The 21 year old man seemed to be living in a fanstasy world of mental illness. To equate what happened on 9/11 to what happened in south carolina is misdirected.

 

However, what the white man did did create terror inside the people being murdered. But it is not terrorism.

[why me]

I can't believe I missed this earlier! So was Al Sharpton and the media responsible for the lynching of Emmett Till? The deaths of Medgar Evers, the three civil right workers in Philadelphia, MS, the four little girls in Birmingham? What about the thousands of men, women and children who were lynched ever three days for the first 90 years after the Civil War? Was Rev. Al responsible for those acts of violence too?

To suggest that the violence against black people is CAUSED by acknowledging violence against black people is, well, bizarre. And sadly, it's quite common. This was EXACTLY the charge that was laid against those brave people who spoke out against lynching in the early 20th century -- they were stoking racial hostilities.

Unfortunately, the rhetoric from the media has been quite confrontational. And I do believe that this confrontational vocabulary can impact those who are mentally ill to commit violent acts such as what happened in SC. How could this man who is 21 believe that blacks want to take over america? What gave him such an image? What exactly was going through his mind and what gave birth to such thoughts? During the last year, the rhetoric coming from the media has been quite problematic in its sensationalism when it comes to white/black issues. And I do believe that sharpton's rhetoric does not help create peace in american society. But I also believe that the rhetoric coming from shock jocks on television and the radio does not help either.

 

America is a muliracial society where whites murder blacks, blacks murder blacks, with whites murdering hispanics and blacks murdering whites etc. But this young man acted on a fantasy and this fantasy has a source. What was that source? When people can begin to have a dialogue about what are the roots of america's violent tendencies, maybe then, solutions can come into play. We need to remember that in 2008 the majority of americans voted for obama because they wanted hope and change. Whites, blacks, hispanics and asians voted for him because they believed that america would heal with him as president. Has it? And why hasn't it if such is the case?

 

The source of this man's behavior comes from the racial rhetoric that has plagued america during the last year or so. I can almost assure that this will be the case when he is examined by mental health experts. Please read my previous post again slowly, reflectively thinking about what I wrote and you may be surprised that you did not understand what I said. I blamed many sources, including sharpton. But I was an equal opportunity blamer.

 

During the race riots in LA in the early nineties, it was the koreans who suffered property loss during the rioting. And in crown heights, ny, the conflict was between hasidic jews and blacks. America has a race problem that covers all races. It is not just a white, black issue but a multiracial issue. There needs to be a discussion about the roots of racial conflict and leave the confrontational rhetoric behind.

Edited June 19, 2015 by why me

[LoudmouthMormon]

There is a difference. The men behind the world trade center belonged to an organization that had its own ideology and religious beliefs that wished to strike at the power structures of the united states. The 21 year old man seemed to be living in a fanstasy world of mental illness. To equate what happened on 9/11 to what happened in south carolina is misdirected.

 

 

Again,

 

"Grassroots terrorist" who chooses to subscribe to [islamic ideology x] and commit acts of terror in the name of said ideology, despite not formally belonging to any organization = terrorist.

Guy who chose to subscribe to [insert white supremacist ideology x] and kill in name of said ideology, while possibly not formally belonging to any organization = not terrorist.

 

Yeah, again, no.  Not seeing that either.  I mean, if Nidal Hasan was a terrorist, why not Dylan Roof?  If Roof can't be a terrorist, then neither is McVeigh.  Or the guys who tried to commit massacre at the Garland TX draw Mohammad event.