Did Others Who Used Seer Stones, Put Them In Their Hat?

[ALarson]

I'm only asking this because I was showing my wife the pictures that Wiki Wonka posted today on the other thread ("face in the Hat Translation") and she asked me this exact question.  I did a google search of seer stone in a hat, and all that came up was in reference to Joseph Smith.  

 

So, was this just something that Joseph came up with on his own?  A technique that worked best for him?

 

How did others use their seer stones back then (in or out of the church)?

[Sevenbak]

According to ancient Jewish history, Josephus described the Urim and Thummim as emitting light in a similar way as Joseph Smith described.  One could assume shielding other sources of light to better read it would be expected.  I think this whole idea of mocking Joseph for using a hat for that purpose is straining at gnats.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/urimthummim.html

 

"The earliest speculation on the technique of the oracle is reflected in Josephus (Ant. 3:217), who states that victory was forecast by the shining of the stones in the breastpiece. The talmudists fancied that the oracle was spelled out by the miraculous protruding of letters out of the tribal names engraved on the stones (Yoma 73b; Maim. Yad, Kele ha-Mikdash, 10:11). Rashi takes account of the separate existence of the Urim by making them a document bearing the tetragrammaton, whose presence inside the breastpiece insured the clarity and perfection of the oracle (comment to Ex. 28:30 and Yoma 73a; cf. Samuel b. Meir, who calls the Urim a kind of conjuration by divine names). Naḥmanides (at Ex. 28:30) combines the various strands of interpretation: the Urim was a text bearing divine names placed inside the breastpiece, by virtue of which various letters out of the tribes' names lit up; the Thummim were other divine names by whose virtue the priest was able to combine the letters perfectly into the divine message.

To the names of the 12 tribes engraved on the breastpiece were added those of the three Patriarchs, together with the word shevet ("tribe") so as to encompass the whole alphabet (Yoma 73b). Interpreting Urim to mean "those whose words give light" and Thummim as "those whose words are fulfilled," the rabbis explain that the oracle was effected by rays of light shining on the letters, or protruding from them and forming themselves into groups (Yoma 73b), so that the high priest could read them. Only priests speaking by means of the holy spirit and upon whom the Shekhinah rested could invoke them. The inquirer had his face directed toward the high priest, who directed himself to the Shekhinah. One did not inquire either in a loud voice or silently in his heart, but like Hannah, who muttered her prayer (I Sam 1:13). Only one question was to be put at a time, and if two were asked, only the first was answered. However, if the occasion required two questions, both were answered. Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked. Only a king or a head of the Sanhedrin could inquire from the Urim and Thummim (Yoma 73a–b). The division of the land was effected by means of the Urim and Thummim (RB 122a). Saul and David consulted them (Mid. Ps. 27:2). The Urim and Thummim ceased to give oracular answers immediately after the death of the first prophets (Sot. 9:12), i.e., the destruction of the First Temple (Sot. 48b). However according to the Jerusalem Talmud (Sot. 9:14, 24b), the "first prophets" refers to Samuel and David and according to this view the Urim and Thummim did not function in the First Temple period either."

[strappinglad]

"Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked."

Who would have thought that the decrees of the prophet could be revoked!! That has implications for the Latter-Day church.

Edited May 1, 2015 by strappinglad

[Sevenbak]

Not really. We know from the BoM that a seer is greater than a prophet. Besides, there are many simultaneous prophets, both anciently and modern. We currently have 15.

[Freedom]

"Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked."

Who would have thought that the decrees of the prophet could be revoked!! That has implications for the Latter-Day church.

No, this is evidence of the truthfulness of the lds church. This is the reason why religions with set dogma have painted themselves into a corner. The requirement to live the law of polygamy was revoked, the commandment of some early church leaders to go on missions was revoked. God gives and he takes away. 

[strappinglad]

All 15 are regarded as prophets, seers and revelators . What I referred to was, it seems BY made a decree and SWK revoked it. How manifestly appropriate given the above quotation about ancient practices.

[Avatar4321]

Fascinating subject so how did Joseph know about the light if not first hand experience?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

So, the revelations received through the stone, as originally given, are irrevocably binding. Brings an interesting argument to the Book of Commandments vs. D&C discussion.

[Nevo]

Joseph seems to have learned the head-in-the-hat thing by watching other seers at work. He didn't originate it.

 

Fayette Lapham recalled a conversation with Joseph Smith Sr in which the elder Smith related that "his son Joseph . . . when about fourteen years of age, happened to be where a man was looking into a dark stone and telling people, therefrom, where to dig for money and other things. Joseph requested the privilege of looking into the stone, which he did by putting his face into the hat where the stone was" (in Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents, 1:457–458).

 

William Purple, who attended Joseph's 1826 trial, recorded that Joseph testified that "when he was a lad, he heard of a neighboring girl some three miles from him [probably Sally Chase], who could look into a glass and see anything however hidden from others, that he was seized with a strong desire to see her and her glass; that after much effort he induced his parents to let him visit her. He did so, and was permitted to look in the glass, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light" (in Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents, 4:133).

 

Mark Ashurst-McGee's M.A. thesis mentions that "in 1825, Palmyra's Wayne Sentinel announced the discovery of a buried treasure 'by the help of a mineral stone, (which becomes transparent when placed in a hat and the light excluded by the face of him who looks into it)" ("Wonderfull Discovery," Wayne Sentinel, 27 December 1825, 2). Ashurst-McGee also cites a local history of Pittston, Maine, that described an episode in 1812 where "it began to be whispered that a negro boy named 'Mike' had a rare faculty bestowed on him. He could place a perforated stone which he had in his possession, in his hat, and immediately he could reveal the hiding places of buried treasure" (quoted in Ashurst-McGee, "A Pathway to Prophethood: Joseph Smith Junior as Rodsman, Village Seer, and Judeo-Christian Prophet," [M.A. thesis, Utah State University, 2000], 165).

[CA Steve]

Short answer is yes.

 

An 1820 Palmyra newspaper article contained the following quote:

 

peep stones or pebbles, taken promiscuously from the brook or field, were placed in a hat or other situation excluded from the light, when some witch or wizard (for these performances were not confined to either sex) applied their eyes, and nearly starting their [eye]balls from their sockets, declared they saw all the wonders of nature, including of course, ample stores of silver and gold.

 

Sally Chase was known to use a hat with a seer stone in it.

 

In Essex Vermont in1824 a local treasure seeker "carried in his hat the mystical stone in which he could see the precise locality and enormous quantity of the concealed precious metals."

 

"In 1815 in Rochester (New York) the 18 year old son of a British immigrant named Smith found a round stone the size of a man's fist. For a time he guided Rochester's residents in search of buried treasure after adjusting the stone in his hat."

 

All references are from D Michael Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View"

 

 

[nealr]

I'm only asking this because I was showing my wife the pictures that Wiki Wonka posted today on the other thread ("face in the Hat Translation") and she asked me this exact question.  I did a google search of seer stone in a hat, and all that came up was in reference to Joseph Smith.  

 

So, was this just something that Joseph came up with on his own?  A technique that worked best for him?

 

How did others use their seer stones back then (in or out of the church)?

 

ALarson,

 

I think it is important to keep in mind not the hat itself, but what the hat was being used for: to block out the light. So, if the question is did others need to block out the light while using a seer stone, the answer is absolutely. And there were various ways of doing that, using a hat being one, and others have already provided some references to others doing just that. If you really want to understand the context of the stone-in-hat-method, I strongly recommend Brant Gardner's The Gift and Power: Translating the Book of Mormon (Greg Kofford Books, 2011). It contextualizes the "magic" aspects of it all better than anything else, in my view. 

[Robert F. Smith]

So, the revelations received through the stone, as originally given, are irrevocably binding.

CFR that they are irrevocably binding.  Where does it say that?

 

Brings an interesting argument to the Book of Commandments vs. D&C discussion.

Joseph felt free to edit the revelations, and I know an LDS patriarch who has edited his patriarchal blessings.  Is there anything wrong with that?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[california boy]

 

According to ancient Jewish history, Josephus described the Urim and Thummim as emitting light in a similar way as Joseph Smith described.  One could assume shielding other sources of light to better read it would be expected.  I think this whole idea of mocking Joseph for using a hat for that purpose is straining at gnats.

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/urimthummim.html

 

"The earliest speculation on the technique of the oracle is reflected in Josephus (Ant. 3:217), who states that victory was forecast by the shining of the stones in the breastpiece. The talmudists fancied that the oracle was spelled out by the miraculous protruding of letters out of the tribal names engraved on the stones (Yoma 73b; Maim. Yad, Kele ha-Mikdash, 10:11). Rashi takes account of the separate existence of the Urim by making them a document bearing the tetragrammaton, whose presence inside the breastpiece insured the clarity and perfection of the oracle (comment to Ex. 28:30 and Yoma 73a; cf. Samuel b. Meir, who calls the Urim a kind of conjuration by divine names). Naḥmanides (at Ex. 28:30) combines the various strands of interpretation: the Urim was a text bearing divine names placed inside the breastpiece, by virtue of which various letters out of the tribes' names lit up; the Thummim were other divine names by whose virtue the priest was able to combine the letters perfectly into the divine message.

To the names of the 12 tribes engraved on the breastpiece were added those of the three Patriarchs, together with the word shevet ("tribe") so as to encompass the whole alphabet (Yoma 73b). Interpreting Urim to mean "those whose words give light" and Thummim as "those whose words are fulfilled," the rabbis explain that the oracle was effected by rays of light shining on the letters, or protruding from them and forming themselves into groups (Yoma 73b), so that the high priest could read them. Only priests speaking by means of the holy spirit and upon whom the Shekhinah rested could invoke them. The inquirer had his face directed toward the high priest, who directed himself to the Shekhinah. One did not inquire either in a loud voice or silently in his heart, but like Hannah, who muttered her prayer (I Sam 1:13). Only one question was to be put at a time, and if two were asked, only the first was answered. However, if the occasion required two questions, both were answered. Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked. Only a king or a head of the Sanhedrin could inquire from the Urim and Thummim (Yoma 73a–b). The division of the land was effected by means of the Urim and Thummim (RB 122a). Saul and David consulted them (Mid. Ps. 27:2). The Urim and Thummim ceased to give oracular answers immediately after the death of the first prophets (Sot. 9:12), i.e., the destruction of the First Temple (Sot. 48b). However according to the Jerusalem Talmud (Sot. 9:14, 24b), the "first prophets" refers to Samuel and David and according to this view the Urim and Thummim did not function in the First Temple period either."

 

 

You do realize that there is a difference between the Urim and Thummin and the seer stone right?  I am a bit unclear why you inserted this.  Maybe you could explain.

[Sevenbak]

I would have thought the reason was obvious.  Joseph used both at one time or another.  Both worked on similar principles.   "In the darkness, the spiritual light would shine."    This is a description given by witnesses of the seer stone in the hat method.  

 

The Church's own explanation on lds.org speaks to both as being interchangeable and doing the same thing.

 

"These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters."

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

[california boy]

I would have thought the reason was obvious.  Joseph used both at one time or another.  Both worked on similar principles.   "In the darkness, the spiritual light would shine."    This is a description given by witnesses of the seer stone in the hat method.  

 

The Church's own explanation on lds.org speaks to both as being interchangeable and doing the same thing.

 

"These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters."

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

 

Thanks for your response.  That did clear up the confusion for me.  Do you think that when Joseph used the Urim and Thummin, he put it in a hat or that he wore it only in a darkened room?  Does anyone know of any account on how the Urim and Thummin was used and what conditions were required for it's use??

[california boy]

An interesting overview of seer stones in the church on Wikipedia.  

 

I knew that Hiram Page had one, but I didn't know that David Whitmer and Jacob Whitmer had one also.  And that Joseph Smith at one time had 5 of them.

[nealr]

Thanks for your response.  That did clear up the confusion for me.  Do you think that when Joseph used the Urim and Thummin, he put it in a hat or that he wore it only in a darkened room?  Does anyone know of any account on how the Urim and Thummin was used and what conditions were required for it's use??

 

Several early newspaper accounts report Joseph as putting the spectacles in the hat to translate. This article here quotes from many of them:

 

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-spectacles-the-stone-the-hat-and-the-book-a-twenty-first-century-believers-view-of-the-book-of-mormon-translation/

[Bob Crockett]

 

Joseph felt free to edit the revelations, and I know an LDS patriarch who has edited his patriarchal blessings.  Is there anything wrong with that?

 

Now, there's evidence!

[ALarson]

Thanks for all the replies and quotes.  They're all very interesting as they give some history to why Joseph used the technique he did for translation.  I'll share them with my wife!

 

nealr, thank you for the book referral, I'll look it up!

 

 

"These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters."

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng

The terms "Urim and Thummim" were not used (that we know of) until after 1833.

 

I remembered that we had a discussion on here about the usage of the terms "Urim and Thummim" and how those terms were not used prior to 1833.  I know they weren't used in the first edition of the Book of Commandments but had been added in the 1835 edition.  

 

I found this from one of my posts explaining this from that thread and it also explains how the stone was called the U&T too:

 

"Here's more on how these terms [urim & Thummim] came to be associated with the translation tools/stones:  

 

It is notable that the term 'Urim and Thummim' is not found in the Book of Mormon and was never used by Joseph Smith with reference to producing the Book of Mormon until after 1833. In that year, a close associate of Smith, W.W. Phelps, speculated that the ancient Nephite interpreters mentioned in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament. Phelps wrote in the LDS publication The Evening and Morning Star (Jan. 1833) that the Book of Mormon had been translated, 'through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles (known perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim). Phelps words, 'known perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummin' show that it was merely speculation on his part that associated Josephs magic seer stone with the biblical Urim and Thummim. 

Phelps' speculation gained quick popularity to the point where LDS writers used the term Urim and Thummim to refer to both the mystical interpreters Joseph Smith said were with the gold plates, and to the seer stone Joseph placed in his hat while dictating the Book of Mormon. As a result, many LDS writings used the term Urim and Thummim synonymously for seer stone.

 

Here's a quote by Joseph Fielding Smith that shows the confusion at times:

 

'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'""

Edited May 1, 2015 by ALarson

[BookofMormonLuvr]

CFR that they are irrevocably binding.  Where does it say that?

 

Joseph felt free to edit the revelations, and I know an LDS patriarch who has edited his patriarchal blessings.  Is there anything wrong with that?

 

"Unlike the decrees of a prophet, those of the Urim and Thummim could not be revoked."

I know he "felt free to edit the revelations", but those edits weren't by the stones. The wording from the stones seems to hold preeminence over any add-ons. 

So this could help the restoration churches not be so quick to judge one another because of their stances over D&C vs. BoC- they could BOTH be right.

Edited May 1, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Uncle Dale]

I'm only asking this because I was showing my wife the pictures that Wiki Wonka posted today on the other thread ("face in the Hat Translation") and she asked me this exact question.  I did a google search of seer stone in a hat, and all that came up was in reference to Joseph Smith.  

 

So, was this just something that Joseph came up with on his own?  A technique that worked best for him?

 

How did others use their seer stones back then (in or out of the church)?

 

 

Try the word search "hat" on this web-page:

 

 

 

UD

[Tacenda]

Try the word search "hat" on this web-page:

UD

I didn't see a search box, what page do they discuss a hat? Edited May 2, 2015 by Tacenda

[Brant Gardner]

I didn't see a search box, what page do they discuss a hat?

Tacenda, when you go to the web page, click CTRL-F on your keyboard. That is the (mostly) universal request for a search box. One will appear (probably in the upper right of your screen). When you search for "hat" you might want to search for " hat " (spaces before and after). Otherwise you might highlight every word containing those three letters.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, when you go to the web page, click CTRL-F on your keyboard. That is the (mostly) universal request for a search box. One will appear (probably in the upper right of your screen). When you search for "hat" you might want to search for " hat " (spaces before and after). Otherwise you might highlight every word containing those three letters.

I guess I'm still computer illiterate, didn't know this little gem. Thank you Brant.

[Uncle Dale]

I guess I'm still computer illiterate, didn't know this little gem. Thank you Brant.

 

 

One thing to keep in mind, as you read through these old accounts

of seer-stones, treasure-seeking, etc., is that the practice was

illegal under New York State statutes.

 

It was one variety of "juggling," specifically mentioned in the

legal code operative during the 1820s throughout the state.

 

Perhaps that is one reason why the LDS Church has been

reluctant to publish images of Smith engaged in this "work."

The Mormon Articles of Faith profess that members obey

the civil law -- so, even though the Church was not yet

organized, Smith was then violating his own moral standard.

This would become fact (rather than theory) when he went

treasure hunting in Massachusetts in 1836, after the Church

was organized.

 

Probably very few peep-stone artists were actually arrested and

brought to trial back then. I also suppose that operators of

"divining rods" were generally overlooked by the authorities,

as water-witching was then a common practice among reputable

citizens. Probably even Smith's peep-stone activities would

have fallen short of criminality, had he not sought some sort of

payment for his head-in-the-hat pretensions.

 

I'm not sure how the law would have been applied, had Smith been

brought to trial and there demonstrated that he really could see

under the ground, or at a great distance, with his peep-stone.

Among the RLDS/CoC members, I've spoken with believers who

concluded that Smith truly could see underground (while any other

people pretending to that power were, in fact, con artists).

 

UD