Did Others Who Used Seer Stones, Put Them In Their Hat?

[bcuzbcuz]

One thing to keep in mind, as you read through these old accounts

of seer-stones, treasure-seeking, etc., is that the practice was

illegal under New York State statutes.

 

It was one variety of "juggling," specifically mentioned in the

legal code operative during the 1820s throughout the state.

 

Perhaps that is one reason why the LDS Church has been

reluctant to publish images of Smith engaged in this "work."

The Mormon Articles of Faith profess that members obey

the civil law -- so, even though the Church was not yet

organized, Smith was then violating his own moral standard.

This would become fact (rather than theory) when he went

treasure hunting in Massachusetts in 1836, after the Church

was organized.

 

Probably very few peep-stone artists were actually arrested and

brought to trial back then. I also suppose that operators of

"divining rods" were generally overlooked by the authorities,

as water-witching was then a common practice among reputable

citizens. Probably even Smith's peep-stone activities would

have fallen short of criminality, had he not sought some sort of

payment for his head-in-the-hat pretensions.

 

I'm not sure how the law would have been applied, had Smith been

brought to trial and there demonstrated that he really could see

under the ground, or at a great distance, with his peep-stone.

Among the RLDS/CoC members, I've spoken with believers who

concluded that Smith truly could see underground (while any other

people pretending to that power were, in fact, con artists).

 

UD

I have no idea whether "seer stones" and "hats" are still used in the search for treasure, but divining rods are still very prevalent in the search for water. Treasure hunting and treasure hunters abound,as do their methods. A simple internet search for hidden treasure or lost treasure will produce thousands of sites. Many of these sites will sell anything from treasure maps to myserious texts (at a very reasonable price, of course) to whoever stumbles across their path.

The age of treasure hunting is far from past.

[Gray]

I didn't see a search box, what page do they discuss a hat?

 

Ctrl F

 

From the source:

 

 

from: The Orleans Advocate, Dec. ?, 1825

Wonderful discovery. -- A few days since was discovered in this town, by the help of a mineral stone, (which becomes transparent when placed in a hat and the light excluded by the face of him who looks into it, provided he is fortune's favorite,) a monstrous potash kettle in the bowels of old mother Earth, filled with the purest bullion. Some attempts have been made to dig it up, but without success. His Satanic Majesty, or some other invisible agent, appears to keep it under marching orders; for no sooner is it dug on to in one place, than it moves off like "false delusive hope," to another still more remote. But its pursuers are now sanguine of success -- they have entrenched the kettle all round, and driven a steel ramrod into the ground directly over it, to break the enchantment. Nothing now remains, but to raise its ponderous weight, and establish a Mint, that it may be coined into federal money. -- Good news indeed for these hard times!

Edited May 3, 2015 by Gray

[ALarson]

Very interesting stuff, Uncle Dale and Gray.  

 

Uncle Dale I think I've asked you this before, but since you mention the use of the divining rod, what are your thoughts on the Fraternity of the Rodsman (or New Israelites)?

Do you think Joseph Smith, Sr. was involved with them like some statements or witnesses infer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Israelites

 

(Maybe this should be a new thread)

Edited May 3, 2015 by ALarson

[Michael13365]

     Sally Chase was a remarkable young woman, at least in my fictional version of the prophet's life, "The True History of Joseph Smith." (available on Kindle) I see her as a somewhat older girl who draws on her family's tradition of seer stones and wand-work to attract Joseph's attention. His sister Sophronia, who narrates the tale, is not happy at Sally's machinations but Joseph is quite entranced, not so much with Sally as with the folk magic in which she professes to be an expert. The historical record does indicate that he found such a stone while digging a well for Sally's brother, Mason Chase.

    After it is apparent that Joseph's infatuation with her has worn off, Sally seeks to get even by leading her brothers in a nighttime raid upon the Smith farm, all in the effort of finding the gold plates - an incident that is also supported by Lucy Smith's history of her son. All in all, the use of seer stones is quite fascinating, more for what it says about the wonderfully romantic imagination of early 19th century Americans than anything else.

[Uncle Dale]

Very interesting stuff, Uncle Dale and Gray.

Uncle Dale I think I've asked you this before, but since you mention the use of the divining rod, what are your thoughts on the Fraternity of the Rodsman (or New Israelites)?

Do you think Joseph Smith, Sr. was involved with them like some statements or witnesses infer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Israelites

(Maybe this should be a new thread)

Joseph Smith, Sr. certainly lived close enough to the "Wood Scrape"

events of c. 1800, to have been involved -- but there is no definite

proof that he was one of the rodsmen. He very likely knew about

the affair, and perhaps believed in the Woods' divining rod pretensions,

but that does not mean that he himself was there in Middleton, VT.

A more likely participant was Oliver Cowdery's father, who lived

very close to the Woods, and who was connected with their scheme,

at least according to some early testimony. Then again, those

allegations may not be fully correct. I suppose there is no way of

knowing for certain now.

The New Israelites used their rods (among other purposes) to

discern the tribal lineage of members and potential members.

I'm not sure if being descended from Ephraim was important

to them, but being an Israelite descendant certainly was. I'm

fairly convinced that Oliver Cowdery believed himself to be

an Israelite -- and thus somewhat elevated above the Jews

and Gentiles of his day. He seems to have been somewhat

patronizing and dismissive of Judaism -- so, perhaps he

thought he was one of the True Israelites of the latter days.

If so, he would have developed this opinion along with his

expertise in rodsmanship, in Vermont. But, again, none of

this proves that he or his father were followers of the Woods.

Oliver was not even born yet, when that cult collapsed.

UD

Edited May 3, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[theplains]

No, this is evidence of the truthfulness of the lds church. This is the reason why religions with set dogma have painted themselves into a corner. The requirement to live the law of polygamy was revoked, the commandment of some early church leaders to go on missions was revoked. God gives and he takes away. 

 

Let's not forget the Law of Consecration as it applies to the LDS Church.  But regarding the Bible, what

requirement/commandment (s) was given to the New Testament church and then revoked?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[ERayR]

Let's not forget the Law of Consecration as it applies to the LDS Church.  But regarding the Bible, what

requirement/commandment (s) was given to the New Testament church and then revoked?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Circumcision.  Required of Israelites but gentile converts were exempted.   Peter and Paul had some disagreement til Peter received revelation.

[theplains]

Circumcision.  Required of Israelites but gentile converts were exempted.   Peter and Paul had some disagreement til Peter received revelation.

 

Circumcision was never a requirement of the church.

 

Jim

[Bobbieaware]

Let's not forget the Law of Consecration as it applies to the LDS Church. But regarding the Bible, what

requirement/commandment (s) was given to the New Testament church and then revoked?

Thanks,

Jim

The commandment to keep living Apostles and Prophets at the head of the Church, to lead and guide it by revelation until each member attains "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ," was revoked without authority by the apostate Christian church.

"No member of the body of Christ can say to the other members, I have no need of thee." (Paul)

Edited May 14, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[theplains]

The commandment to keep living Apostles and Prophets at the head of the Church, to lead and guide it by revelation until each member attains "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ," was revoked without authority by the apostate Christian church.

"No member of the body of Christ can say to the other members, I have no need of thee." (Paul)

 

Jesus is the head of His church.  The Holy Spirit and the Bible help the saints to grow spiritually.  

If you wish to bring up revelation to lead and guide the church, nothing has been canonized

in the LDS Church since 1978, and that appeared to be more of a consensus based declaration

instead of a 'thus saith the Lord' type revelation.  I have even seen it written somewhere in LDS

teachings that not all revelations are recorded in canon, but it did not give any examples.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................................

.......................... I also suppose that operators of

"divining rods" were generally overlooked by the authorities,

as water-witching was then a common practice among reputable

citizens. ................................ 

.....................................................................

Years ago I did some water-well drilling in the countryside around Wichita, Kansas, and now and then the farmer hiring us would witch the location for us to drill ahead of our arrival.  Of course we always found water.  The aquifer was well mapped, and we already knew the proper depth at which to expect water.  But we didn't tell those farmers that.

 

I mention this lest you think that this is a thing of the past.  You may be old enough to recall an Erskine Caldwell book and movie called "God's Little Acre," in which witching for gold took place in modern times.

[Robert F. Smith]

 

Jesus is the head of His church.  The Holy Spirit and the Bible help the saints to grow spiritually.  

If you wish to bring up revelation to lead and guide the church, nothing has been canonized

in the LDS Church since 1978, and that appeared to be more of a consensus based declaration

instead of a 'thus saith the Lord' type revelation.  I have even seen it written somewhere in LDS

teachings that not all revelations are recorded in canon, but it did not give any examples.

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

There are many revelations (ancient and modern) which have not been canonized.  Or are at least not available to us today.

[Robert F. Smith]

   .............................................................  

.....................................All in all, the use of seer stones is quite fascinating, more for what it says about the wonderfully romantic imagination of early 19th century Americans than anything else.

Erskine Caldwell (born in Georgia in 1903) wrote a best-selling novel, God’s Little Acre (1933), focusing on “witching” and digging for gold in rural Wayne County, Georgia.  The main character, Ty Ty Walden, who condemns the “unscientific” use of willow sticks, and who makes a family enterprise of dowsing and digging on his own farmland, even kidnaps and then cajoles a supposedly magical albino named Dave Dawson to witch for gold.  The motion picture version was raucous and hilarious, but shows how au courant such vernacular, old-time folklore and magic rituals truly are – which non-Mormon scholar Jon Butler maintains was part and parcel of Colonial American folk religion, which was transferred directly from Europe, and which remains part of American culture to this day.  Not just the early 19th century.

 

See Jon Butler,  “"Magic, Astrology, and the Early American Religious Heritage, 1600-1760," American Historical Review, 84/2 (April 1979), 317-346; esp. 318, re “the survival of European occult or magical practices in the American colonies,” and 319, “magic and Christianity in colonial America were not generically different entities but were subsets of the same phenomenon – religion.”

Edited May 16, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Bobbieaware]

Jesus is the head of His church.  The Holy Spirit and the Bible help the saints to grow spiritually.  

If you wish to bring up revelation to lead and guide the church, nothing has been canonized

in the LDS Church since 1978, and that appeared to be more of a consensus based declaration

instead of a 'thus saith the Lord' type revelation.  I have even seen it written somewhere in LDS

teachings that not all revelations are recorded in canon, but it did not give any examples.

 

Thanks,

Jim

The LDS Church is awash in revelation. Most any General Conference address by any of the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is scripture. In the LDS Church there is canonized scripture and scripture that may very well be canonized at some time in the future. This is as it was in the days of the Apostles in the Holy Land: The Apostles and Prophets would address a group of people with the word of the Lord (scripture), and then many years later the addresses were recorded and added to the canon of scripture. You misunderstand the LDS concept of revelation if you think all the revelations of God must first be canonized before they can be considered revelation.

At any rate, your answer was largely unresponsive to my challenge.

[rodheadlee]

 

Jesus is the head of His church.  

Thanks,

Jim

 

That is correct, it's called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Come join, the Lord has brought many blessings to His Church.

[theplains]

The LDS Church is awash in revelation. Most any General Conference address by any of the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is scripture. In the LDS Church there is canonized scripture and scripture that may very well be canonized at some time in the future.

 

Which of the following LDS teaching (in pdf attachments) is true and which is false?

 

Thanks,

Jim

lds_sin_of_adam.pdf

lds_not_the_sin_of_adam.pdf

[Zakuska]

I'm not sure how my great grandma used hers. I'm not sure a pioneer bonette would work.

[Bobbieaware]

Which of the following LDS teaching (in pdf attachments) is true and which is false?

Thanks,

Jim

This one gave me a little bit of a chuckle because I'm wondering if you realize there is no way any of the prominent brethren quoted in the first pdf file would not be perfectly aware of the foundational LDS doctrine that, in a special sense, Adam did not commit a sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit, but that he transgressed to the end that a greater good and ultimate glory might follow. I'm wondering if you realize in the first file the word "transgression" is used interchangeablely with the word "sin" at least eight times? As Paul said, there is a sin unto life and a sin unto death. In tha case of Adam and Eve's transgression, theirs was a sin unto life that made it possible for many sons and daughters to be brought unto glory.

Bottom line? Any experienced and knowledgable Latter-day Saint knows in the first PDFs file quotes the word sin is being used as a direct synonym for transgression, and the men you quoted are all perfectly aware of that fact. In fact, if you are willing to do further searching and investigation, it shouldn't be too hard for you to find quotes from all the brethren in the first file that are in perfect agreement with what is being taught in the second file.

Edited to add: It took me 2 minutes to find the following recent quote from Jeffery R. Holland. Enjoy...

"In our increasingly secular society, it is as uncommon as it is unfashionable to speak of Adam and Eve or the Garden of Eden or of a “fortunate fall” into mortality. Nevertheless, the simple truth is that we cannot fully comprehend the Atonement and Resurrection of Christ and we will not adequately appreciate the unique purpose of His birth or His death—in other words, there is no way to truly celebrate Christmas or Easter—without understanding that there was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it.

"I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death." (Jeffery R. Holland, April 2015 General Conference)

Edited May 16, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[stephenpurdy]

It didn't have to be a hat.  Anything that would exclude outside light would do.  Sometimes, the person who was writing down what Joseph said was doing so by candle light, so a "curtain" of some kind was placed between Joseph and the scribe so that the light would not obscure Joseph's view into the stones.

 

-Stephen

[The Nehor]

Which of the following LDS teaching (in pdf attachments) is true and which is false?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

They're both true and you are false. Hope that helps.