The Truth About The Trek

[Robert F. Smith]

...........................................................................   

 

If these things are true, what conclusion am I suppose to come to about BY?

That he was fallible?

[oremites]

"It is time to honor this story and these heroic people with the truth.”

 

If you asked these heroic people what truths they want told about the trek, would they speak about the same things that Will Bagley does? 

 

I'm not opposed to letting all the facts come out about the treks, but they should include the spiritual facts that are vital to understanding the truth.  I'm not sure Will Bagley is the right man for the job.  To what extent God was behind any of the decisions regarding these treks is certainly up for debate, but removing Him and the parts He did play in all this does not honor the story or these heroic people.

[cinepro]

Do you think it is likely a mistake a brother would make?

 

Since they probably had to fly to "Portland" to get to the mission, and the hospital may very well have been in Portland as well, it probably wasn't even a "mistake".  In sharing the story, she never says "the Portland, Oregon Mission".  She only makes a few references to the city of "Portland", which, if you look at the map, looks like it's the southern half of the city of Vancouver, Washington.

 

I don't know what the other option for the origin of the story would be.  If someone made it up, the blog sources all refer to the Vancouver, Washington mission, so the fact that the story refers to "Portland" would indicate the person didn't get their info from online sources.

Edited April 18, 2015 by cinepro

[CCRW]

That he was fallible?

 

So as far as you know it is true about the booze/tobacco and diverting rescue resources?

Edited April 18, 2015 by CCRW

[Calm]

Yes, it makes sense. But the way the church teaches the history implies that everyone who went through the trial remained faithful. That's disingenuous in my view.

I was a skeptic as a kid.  Idealistic pictures and stories turned me off (maybe because Grandma would do the same with our cousins and then try to guilt us into being more like them...I just didn't buy it was all cherries and cream anyway, they weren't total strangers after all and I knew how she described Dad and how close that was to the truth.)

 

It is certainly possible that it was taught that way, but that was never the lesson I heard, lol.  Always trying to read between the lines and imagining how it would have happened in my family.

[CCRW]

If you asked these heroic people what truths they want told about the trek, would they speak about the same things that Will Bagley does? 

 

I'm not opposed to letting all the facts come out about the treks, but they should include the spiritual facts that are vital to understanding the truth.  I'm not sure Will Bagley is the right man for the job.  To what extent God was behind any of the decisions regarding these treks is certainly up for debate, but removing Him and the parts He did play in all this does not honor the story or these heroic people.

 

In the video, Will notes that only one miracle was needed, for God to suppress the weather for a short period ... but then notes the possibility of another ... for God to soften BY's cold heart.  Bad joke ... sick me laughed.

 

But seriously the last section of the linked document has some interesting things to say about this.

[CCRW]

I was a skeptic as a kid.  Idealistic pictures and stories turned me off (maybe because Grandma would do the same with our cousins and then try to guilt us into being more like them...I just didn't buy it was all cherries and cream anyway, they weren't total strangers after all and I knew how she described Dad and how close that was to the truth.)

 

It is certainly possible that it was taught that way, but that was never the lesson I heard, lol.  Always trying to read between the lines and imagining how it would have happened in my family.

 

The linked document is nowhere near as hostile as the video.  It seems to be a well referenced historical work ... of course bias is there.  But once again, the end of the document has some interesting facts (I assume) along these lines.

[readstoomuch]

In the video, Will notes that only one miracle was needed, for God to suppress the weather for a short period ... but then notes the possibility of another ... for God to soften BY's cold heart.  Bad joke ... sick me laughed.

 

But seriously the last section of the linked document has some interesting things to say about this.

These (handcart companies) people have been honored.  I think we do them justice.  BY was a very complicated man and I still believe he was a prophet.  I  think people gave you a refutation, but not the one you wanted.  At that point in the Churches history, Brigham Young`s business was indelibly linked to the Church and vice versa.  So maybe a steam engine, whiskey and whatever was important.  I hope Brigham Young would show me some deference if he were judging my life 160 years after the fact.  I'll wait until this gets digested better.  If it is really that important it will get some more attention and defense than us feeble people are doing here.  

 

I for one have read enough of Will Bagley and heard him talk enough to not believe every thing he says.  You believe him on this one.  Maybe he is right.  I kind of doubt it.  There is a great article about the handcart companies in BYU studies from about ten years ago.  I am too lazy to find and don't know how to link it to the post. Hopefully, you can see past this or any one issue and just try to spiritually get back into the gospel.  It sounds like you really want to or at least it sounds like you need it.  All my opinion.  Be mellow.  Good night.

[CCRW]

Hopefully, you can see past this or any one issue and just try to spiritually get back into the gospel.  It sounds like you really want to or at least it sounds like you need it.  All my opinion.  Be mellow.  Good night.

 

Thanks readstoomuch for the well wishes. 

[The Nehor]

Well, in pulling this back to the OP, but possibly a wind up, as there seems to be no rebuttal to Bagley's research …

 

I took the time to read the above link.  I am exhausted after doing so.

 

I suppose there is a righteous world view and an apostate world view to be considered here:

 

The righteous Prophet Brigham Young

 

“If any man, or woman, complains of me or of my Counselors, in regard to the lateness of some of this season’s immigration, let the curse of God be on them and blast their substance with mildew and destruction, until their names are forgotten from the earth.”

 

The wicked apostate Will Bagley

 

“No one should ever discount the heroism of those who suffered or died during the handcart ordeal, or ignore the selfless acts of courage by the men and boys who risked their lives to save the victims of this ill-conceived experiment. Nothing could honor that memory better than to deal with this story as honestly as the survivors did in their diaries and memoirs, which Juanita Brooks said “picture the labors and suffering of the handcart pioneers as one long torture.

 

It is time to honor this story and these heroic people with the truth.”

 

So you demand that a rebuttal be written or provided by someone else immediately or you intend to buy it hook, line, and sinker? Despite the fact that Bagley's articles in the past have ripped quotes from context, misrepresented chronology to make LDS leaders villains, and other abuses of the truth?

 

Did no one else's mom tell them not to believe everything you read?

[CCRW]

Did no one else's mom tell them not to believe everything you read?

I seem to recall her mentioning something about avoiding the Death, Destroyer of Worlds.

 

sorry, got some anger issues ... feeling a bit better now 

[The Nehor]

I seem to recall her mentioning something about avoiding the Death, Destroyer of Worlds.

 

I promise not to build any nukes then. The fuel is expensive anyways.

[cinepro]

Do you think it is likely a mistake a brother would make?

 

Considering how much I know about the geography of the state-side missions my own siblings have served, it seems entirely possible to me.

[Calm]

Geography is one thing, the name of the mission is another.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Since they probably had to fly to "Portland" to get to the mission, and the hospital may very well have been in Portland as well, it probably wasn't even a "mistake".  In sharing the story, she never says "the Portland, Oregon Mission".  She only makes a few references to the city of "Portland", which, if you look at the map, looks like it's the southern half of the city of Vancouver, Washington.

 

I don't know what the other option for the origin of the story would be.  If someone made it up, the blog sources all refer to the Vancouver, Washington mission, so the fact that the story refers to "Portland" would indicate the person didn't get their info from online sources.

 I am from the Vancouver, Washington area. Vancouver is essentially a suburb of Portland, encompassed in the "Portland Metro Area". She was likely in Portland fro treatment as that is the major city with the best hospitals, including Oregon Health Sciences University. I have seen active, strong members that I grew up under post links about a sister missionary that served in Vancouver dying- I can only assume they were talking about this story.

Edited April 21, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Geography is one thing, the name of the mission is another.

To me the bigger issue (which you also pointed out) is the two online versions of the story that were written at the time say she died in the hospital while all the sisters were gathered for a conference. The fact that the "brother" got this wrong is a big red flag.

[Calm]

I am not making any judgment on the name of the mission thing.  Don't have enough experience to form an opinion on that.  They were not rhetorical question, but serious ones.  I am wondering if others see it as likely or not if a sibling would get a mission name wrong.

 

I do agree the dying at the hospital as opposed to 48 hours after release is a red flag.

 

I can still see where sisters might have gotten it wrong, so I am not discounting the possibility that it really was her brother posting it and that is the most accurate account.  I just think that one should not just assume it is and be cautious in using any info from it because of the contradiction.  Personally I would just use info all accounts agreed upon or were published in the obit if I was using the story for any purpose.

Edited April 21, 2015 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Two possibilities:

1) You believe in the church, know that human prophets make mistakes, and that God will bless those who died, for their obedience in their transfer to work on the other side.

2) You don't believe in the church, and this was just another episode to use as lever to push your own agenda.

Most likely you already picked one of these conclusions before you started reading the thread.

[CCRW]

In this case I was actually anticipating Robert or Scott or you or someone might have had other information to share.  Just trying to work some things out.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

She may have been there when the Portland Mission split and they formed the Vancouver Mission.

[Calm]

She died in May 2014.  The mission appears to have been created in 2013.

[Tacenda]

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/where-god-ran-out-mountains-1

 

I'm listening to this show on RadioWest with Will Bagley.  He mentions Brigham Young's "Steam Engine" that carried liquor and tobacco etc.  According to Will, BY chose it over saving a few of the saints.  Does anyone have any information on this?  Is there anything by Fair?  I know that Will isn't a lover of BY.  So don't know how biased he might be.  His book is called "South Pass".  He mentions that historians have covered up things.  

[rodheadlee]

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/where-god-ran-out-mountains-1

 

I'm listening to this show on RadioWest with Will Bagley.  He mentions Brigham Young's "Steam Engine" that carried liquor and tobacco etc.  According to Will, BY chose it over saving a few of the saints.  Does anyone have any information on this?  Is there anything by Fair?  I know that Will isn't a lover of BY.  So don't know how biased he might be.  His book is called "South Pass".  He mentions that historians have covered up things.  

Well yeah he loved his booze and cigars more than people of course he would choose to do the wrong thing.

Edited May 27, 2015 by rodheadlee

[ERayR]

From my review of Bagley's Blood of the Prophets:

Bagley argues that after Chief Arapeen told him about the massacre,

Young advised Arapeen to help himself to the booty (BOTP p. 170).

Bagley, however, changes the actual sequence of events to make

things appear as they are not. The Huntington diary shows that

Young first asked Arapeen—just as Brigham Young had asked all

other Indian chieftains—to help himself to the army’s cattle. Then

Arapeen tells him about “a” massacre.⁴⁸ Nobody thereafter suggested

to Arapeen that he help himself to the Fancher train booty.

Brigham Young would never have done this because Arapeen’s tribe

was too far north in Utah. Bagley’s explanation is akin to asking the

mayor of Ogden to help himself to the coffers of Cedar City.

As a separate matter, Will Bagley is an admitted Huntington Library scholar, as am I. Prominent in theJacob Boreman file (the judge who presided over the Lee case) is a letter from William Bishop to John D Lee, telling Lee that Bishop needs to add things to Lee's "confession" to spice it up and make it sell better. He doesn't mention the letter in his book.

As a separate matter, Will Bagley claimed in BOTP as source materials National Archive files. Yet, he never accessed them. When he cites to the national archives, he mistakenly cites to an invoice for copies of the national archives files provided to William Wise, another anti-Mormon scholar. Had Bagley really visited the national archives, as he claimed, he would have seen letters from the Departments of War, Indian affairs and Justice showing another decade of trying to pin the Church to the crime after Lee's trial, rather than claiming that the investigation came to an end with Lee's trial in a scapegoating deal to thwart justice. (As well as other material.)

I'd say that Will is not truthful, and I rarely make that accusation.

It is likely true that Brigham Young sent men east to try and save mercantile shipments at the same time as he sent men to save the handcart pioneers. There is no way that he would have understood the magnitude of the problem when he ordered men east, and they were the ones that made decisions which today might look faulty, as they were there and Brigham Young was not.

Brigham Young was highly critical of Apostle Franklin Richards for the handcart debacle. RIchards was the one who urged the Saints out in September. The other treks suffered a dramatically lower mortality rate than ordinary conestoga wagon treks at the time. But it is very important to also know that many of the Mormons saw the danger and did not go that September. Although they were derided at the time by the trekkers as "back outs" there is no indication they ever were criticized for their decision to wait another year. In short, the hand cart pioneers were adults, had their agency, and some made poor decisions

 

I have not seen much of Bagley (by choice) but what I have seen does not engender any trust in his work.

[Tacenda]

I have not seen much of Bagley (by choice) but what I have seen does not engender any trust in his work.

Do you have proof of this? Proof to make one distrust Will.