Jean-Luc Picard Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 The general message I take away is that the Martin and Willie companies demonstrate the fallibility of our leaders (up to and including the prophet), and also demonstrate the problems of blind faith and blind obedience to fallible leaders (up to and including the prophet). It shows that God will not save us from bad decisions (whether our own or those of our leaders). Some good discussion here once you get a page or two:http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62061-youth-treks/God follows natural laws. Bodies freeze when in cold weather. They also deteriorate when they have no nutrition.Just add it to your BY is his "own pony" file.
mikegriffith1 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 The Truth About the Trek I can not think of anything that disturbed me more than when I listened to this historian's version of BY's Steam Engine and the the rest of the story to the trek preparations etc. JLHPROF has suggested that this issue is similar to MMM, which of course has no solid ties between BY and what happened. But this case seems different, either these things indeed happened or they did not and they should be solidly connected to BY if they did. Apparently BY tried to blame John Taylor for the whole mess. Taylor was over the hand cart program. Taylor defending himself, along with other fiery language issued this final Challenge to BY: "The handcart scheme was to me and to us all a new operation I considered that the utmost prudence was necessary. I wanted if a train started to know that it would go through. I knew of the weakness and infirmity of many women, children and aged persons that were calculated to go. But I did not consider that a few dollars were to be put in competition with the lives of human beings." If nothing else please listen to the last few minutes of this talk starting at 1:07:00 I would ask the scholars here to please provide solid information showing that Will Bagley's version is false. That BY did not divert resources from the rescue, that as John Taylor put ... placed money in competition with human life. If these things are true, what conclusion am I suppose to come to about BY? You should think the same thing about him that John Taylor himself thought about him: that he was a prophet of God. John Taylor did not let view this difference of opinion over transportation resources as any reason to deny or repudiate his sure knowledge that Brigham Young was a prophet. 1
hagoth7 Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 I was able to find two blogs from other missionaries in that mission that described their experiences with the poor sister and their grief at her passing. I also found the obituary from the sister missionary's hometown. So there was definitely a sister missionary who died under those conditions in that area around that time. The specific details about being denied treatment weren't mentioned of course, so we only have the semi-anonymous post from Reddit for that info. If you want the name of the missionary and links, PM me (or Google creatively).She also had two facebook pages. One apparently prior to her mission, and one during.
Tacenda Posted May 31, 2015 Posted May 31, 2015 Well, in pulling this back to the OP, but possibly a wind up, as there seems to be no rebuttal to Bagley's research … I took the time to read the above link. I am exhausted after doing so. I suppose there is a righteous world view and an apostate world view to be considered here: The righteous Prophet Brigham Young “If any man, or woman, complains of me or of my Counselors, in regard to the lateness of some of this season’s immigration, let the curse of God be on them and blast their substance with mildew and destruction, until their names are forgotten from the earth.” The wicked apostate Will Bagley “No one should ever discount the heroism of those who suffered or died during the handcart ordeal, or ignore the selfless acts of courage by the men and boys who risked their lives to save the victims of this ill-conceived experiment. Nothing could honor that memory better than to deal with this story as honestly as the survivors did in their diaries and memoirs, which Juanita Brooks said “picture the labors and suffering of the handcart pioneers as one long torture. It is time to honor this story and these heroic people with the truth.”Today I had the opportunity to go to a presentation by Will that a group of disaffected LDS set up. I heard about this group on NOM. I don't really go to the meet-ups. But noticed that someone wanted to invite Will to speak. Many of the attenders had many of Will's books that he autographed. He's a wonderful man. And admitted that he isn't credentialed, wouldn't be able to teach at SL Community College. That's a humble man. He just wants to tell the truth of what he's found. Such a wealth of information learned today. He wasn't anti in any way. He did mention the Steam Engine and BY wanting to get it brought back, and that it held "groceries". But I don't think he said BY brought that back instead of the pioneers. It was my impression that they were already back in Utah. I've not slept for days so my mind is like mush or I would share more. Will did have his books available to buy, and one was his latest, "South Pass", that I mentioned in another post. I bought it and will read it and look for documentation. He is able to send more through an email if I need it. I mentioned that I post on Mormon Dialogue and that I needed documentation about specifics of this story.
Tacenda Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 http://mormonexpositor.com/101-the-martin-willie-handcart-disaster/ This just out, just in time for the 24th of July celebrations. I haven't listened to all of it. I don't know how much is true, but what is said is pretty interesting. For one, the immigrants arrive in the US with too much luggage and told they were only allowed to take 15 lbs. They then had to sell their belongings, turns out they sold it to the missionaries! And when arriving in SLC they buy back things like their clothing. It is also mentioned that the Perpetual Immigrating Fund the church set up for the immigrants, was to be paid back with interest. And according to Will that was a 10% interest. Which left them as indigent servants, according to Will, much of it couldn't be paid back. And Will quotes that there is a PDF file that can be downloaded that is the original contract. He mentions that the LDS historians won't tell you about the 10%. I guess like my post above, this needs to get straightened out. Or are the facts just impossible to track down? Will is emphatic that he has the highest regard for the pioneers, but that they were sold a bill of goods by their leaders. In post #26 Bob Crockett said: "Brigham Young was highly critical of Apostle Franklin Richards for the handcart debacle. RIchards was the one who urged the Saints out in September. The other treks suffered a dramatically lower mortality rate than ordinary conestoga wagon treks at the time. But it is very important to also know that many of the Mormons saw the danger and did not go that September. Although they were derided at the time by the trekkers as "back outs" there is no indication they ever were criticized for their decision to wait another year. In short, the hand cart pioneers were adults, had their agency, and some made poor decisions". According to Will, Franklin Richards was a scapegoat for BY. And it was poor planning that led to the tragedy of the Martin/Willie Handcart companies. John Taylor apparently had it mapped out where it could have worked. But BY's promise of giving resources to these people, fell through. For instance resource stations, that hold food etc. Also, BY doesn't provide feedback to John Taylor while organizing the handcart purchases. John takes it on himself to try to make it work. No one knew how many immigrants would show up. Therefore there weren't enough handcarts and they had to build handcarts out of green lumber. So much more to put here. I doubt many will listen to Will. But to each their own. I wonder if the pioneers want the story told truthfully, or only faithfully. I'm sure both, but if truthfully, will that hurt the faithful? I know men and women are not perfect. But were these immigrants thinking the end was at hand and they needed to have their souls saved? If so, there is the tragedy.
Calm Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) I prefer to see the original sources when it comes to Bagley's claims. I prefer it all the time actually, but insist upon it before coming to any conclusion for his. Edited July 17, 2015 by calmoriah
Tacenda Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I prefer to see the original sources when it comes to Bagley's claims. I prefer it all the time actually, but insist upon it before coming to any conclusion for his. These are the links and references from the podcast. I've only ever read Devil's Gate, and "The Price We Paid", which isn't listed. Bagley, Will. “One Long Funeral March – A Revisionist’s View of the Mormon Handcart Disasters” Juornal of Mormon History 2009.Moore, Carrie. Historians Fault Leaders in LDS Handcart Tragedy Deseret News 2006.Roberts, David. Devil’s Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart TragedySmith, Don. Leadership, Planning, and Management of the 1856 Mormon Handcart Emigration Annals of Iowa 2006.Turner, John. Mormon Handcart Pioneers Patheos 2013.BYU Website – The Travels of the Willie Handcart CompanyWikipedia – 17 Miracles
Kenngo1969 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Cold historic facts mean nothing here for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistake to send the Hand Cart Company out so late in the season? Yes. But I was in that Company and my wife was in it. . . . I have looked back many times to see who was pushing my cart but my eyes saw no one. I knew then that the Angels of God were there. Was I sorry that I chose to come by hand cart? No. Neither then nor any minute of my life since. The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Hand Cart Company. Source: Chad Orton, "Francis Webster: The Unique Story of One Handcart Pioneer's Faith and Sacrifice," BYU Studies, vol. 45, no. 2 (2006) 117, accessed on line at the following address on July 17, 2015: https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/viewFile/7130/6779 .That's Francis Webster's testimony. Here's what Levi Savage said after discouraging the companies from departing so late: Brethren and sisters, what I have said I know to be true, but seeing you are to go forward, I will go with you, will help you all I can, will work with you, will rest with you, will suffer with you, and if necessary I will die with you. May God have mercy bless and preserve us. Source: http://trek.csnorth.org/PioneerAccounts/LeviSavage.pdf, accessed July 17, 2015 2
Sanpitch Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 That's Francis Webster's testimony. Here's what Levi Savage said after discouraging the companies from departing so late:Apparently there was very selective spiritual help among the handcarters. Of the 576 in the Martin Handcart Company, one fourth of them froze and or starved to death including babies and small children. How can one person have help and the rest just manage the best they can. Re Frances Webster's testimony.
ERayR Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Apparently there was very selective spiritual help among the handcarters. Of the 576 in the Martin Handcart Company, one fourth of them froze and or starved to death including babies and small children. How can one person have help and the rest just manage the best they can. Re Frances Webster's testimony. Given the conditions it is one huge miracle that any of those two companies made it. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Apparently there was very selective spiritual help among the handcarters. Of the 576 in the Martin Handcart Company, one fourth of them froze and or starved to death including babies and small children. How can one person have help and the rest just manage the best they can. Re Frances Webster's testimony.It's Francis. And much more than one person had help. If they hadn't things likely would have been even worse for the two companies. That's what I keep coming back to, pretty much every time I try to convince God how much my life sucks (and believe me, while I have no corner on challenges or suffering, there are a lot of things I would change about it if I could). Essentially, God says, "How do you know things couldn't be worse?" And I have to admit, I dunno. His purposes are as inscrutable to me as they are to anyone else. As Paul Simon sang so well, "God only knows. God makes His plans. The information's unavailable to the mortal man. We work at our jobs, collect our pay, believe we're gliding down the highway when, in fact, we're slip slidin' away." I can only have faith and hope that, one day, I will understand God's currently-inscrutable purposes. If you don't believe that adversity can tutor and refine a person or that God can use even what seem to us to be horrible things to accomplish those purposes, that's your business. I admit, I don't understand the interplay between what God causes, what He merely allows, and what He chooses to intervene to prevent, but I do know He's not like Santa Claus: He doesn't give us "presents" when we're "good" and "lumps of coal" when we're "bad." As Rabbi Harold Kushner once so memorably put it, "Expecting to have a trouble-free life because you are a good person is like expecting the bull not to charge you because you're a vegetarian." Bulls charge people; it's what they do. Sometimes, life sucks; it is what it is. Often, we cannot choose our circumstances; we can only choose how we react to them. As the scriptures put it, "God maketh his sun to shine on both the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Nephi surely didn't understand the reasons for everything that happened to him, but he said, "I know not the meaning of all things; nevertheless, I know that [God] loveth his children." Job didn't deserve everything that happened to him, but he still said, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." Joseph Smith neither understood nor deserved everything that happened to him. He cried out, "O God, where art thou, and where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place," and was told, "My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment. And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high, and thou shalt triumph over all thy foes." And the Savior of the world told him, "The son of man hath descended below [all things]," and asked, "Art thou greater than He?" And it's not as though Francis Webster and others didn't suffer, simply because they happened to live through the experience. If I were a betting man, I would bet that many of them suffered the effects of the trek long afterward, for the rest of their lives, in many cases. But, by and large, like Francis Webster, they were grateful to have lived through it (continuing challenges notwithstanding). It's incomprehensible to me, as it is to all of us, but Christ said that God notices even a sparrow's fall and asked if we're not worth many sparrows. I can't wrap my mortal, finite mind around the implications that "All flesh is in [God's] hand," or that, as he told Joseph Smith, and as I believe is true of all of us, "Thy days are known, and shall not be numbered less. Fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever." And the Apostle Paul wrote that "All things work together for the good of them that love God." Not just the "good" stuff, and not just the things we understand, but all things. My faith often wavers; the words of the man who besought the Savior to cast an evil spirit out of his son often are a perfect description of it: "Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief." I've fallen more times than I can count. Sometimes, I wonder why I keep getting back up, but I do: I get back up, dust myself off, and jump back into the fray. I have a very flawed, finite, mortal perspective, but Joseph Smith also taught that all of our losses would be made up to us in the end, provided we continue faithful. The one thing I try to hold onto is that no matter what else happens to me, I know God loves me. He doesn't love me because I'm perfect, or because I always do what He wants me to do, or because I do that even most of the time. He loves me for the same reason my earthly father does: because I'm His son, and because that's just what he does. But I learned a long time ago not to count on an easy life being a sign of God's favor; it's not. "Whom the Lord loveth, He chasteneth." Edited July 18, 2015 by Kenngo1969 3
oremites Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Apparently there was very selective spiritual help among the handcarters. Of the 576 in the Martin Handcart Company, one fourth of them froze and or starved to death including babies and small children. How can one person have help and the rest just manage the best they can. Re Frances Webster's testimony. The survivors (even those that got the selective spiritual help) froze and starved as well, just not to death. Your question seems to suppose that death is worse than surviving.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) The survivors (even those that got the selective spiritual help) froze and starved as well, just not to death. Your question seems to suppose that death is worse than surviving. Depends on what one has to survive, I suppose. They wouldn't call it "enduring to the end" if there were nothing to endure. I can understand the "selective-spiritual-help" and "why-did-God-help-some-to-survive-while-allowing-others-to-die" perspectives, if one believes there wasn't a life before this one and that there isn't one after it. Edited July 18, 2015 by Kenngo1969 3
Recommended Posts