CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 I can not think of anything that disturbed me more than when I listened to this historian's version of BY's Steam Engine and the the rest of the story to the trek preparations etc. JLHPROF has suggested that this issue is similar to MMM, which of course has no solid ties between BY and what happened. But this case seems different, either these things indeed happened or they did not and they should be solidly connected to BY if they did. Apparently BY tried to blame John Taylor for the whole mess. Taylor was over the hand cart program. Taylor defending himself, along with other fiery language issued this final Challenge to BY: "The handcart scheme was to me and to us all a new operation I considered that the utmost prudence was necessary. I wanted if a train started to know that it would go through. I knew of the weakness and infirmity of many women, children and aged persons that were calculated to go. But I did not consider that a few dollars were to be put in competition with the lives of human beings." If nothing else please listen to the last few minutes of this talk starting at 1:07:00 I would ask the scholars here to please provide solid information showing that Will Bagley's version is false. That BY did not divert resources from the rescue, that as John Taylor put ... placed money in competition with human life. If these things are true, what conclusion am I suppose to come to about BY?
SeekingUnderstanding Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) If these things are true, what conclusion am I suppose to come to about BY? The general message I take away is that the Martin and Willie companies demonstrate the fallibility of our leaders (up to and including the prophet), and also demonstrate the problems of blind faith and blind obedience to fallible leaders (up to and including the prophet). It shows that God will not save us from bad decisions (whether our own or those of our leaders). Some good discussion here once you get a page or two:http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62061-youth-treks/ Edited April 17, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding 3
CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Author Posted April 17, 2015 The general message I take away is that the Martin and Willie companies demonstrate the fallibility of our leaders (up to and including the prophet), and also demonstrate the problems of blind faith and blind obedience to fallible leaders (up to and including the prophet). It shows that God will not save us from bad decisions (whether our own or those of our leaders). Some good discussion here once you get a page or two:http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62061-youth-treks/ Have you listened to this whole talk before, or read Bagley's books?
SeekingUnderstanding Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) Have you listened to this whole talk before, or read Bagley's books?I have read some journal articles on it, as well as journals from those that went on the trek (including my ggg single grandmother and her two young kids). It's my understanding that the dialogue between Brigham and Taylor is accurate. Taylor favored a more measured approach, putting supply stations up and trying it out first. Brigham said no. After it went bad, Brigham Young accused Taylor of sabotaging the effort to fulfill his prediction of failure. Edited April 17, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding
CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Author Posted April 17, 2015 It's worth an hour to listen to, and I'm looking for factual contradictions to what Bagley has presented in this talk. Especially about diverting rescue resources to save his whiskey and groceries.
CA Steve Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 For a terrific autobiography by someone who actually endured the Martin handcart trek I highly recommend the Patience Loader diary, "Recollections of Past Days". Free download here http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1036&context=usupress_pubs 1
Buckeye Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 I'm no historian and I have no ancestors who traveled by wagon or handcart (we joined post-WW II). But I have seen modern treks put on by my stake and others with the youth. I can assure you that safety is big consideration, though there still are some questionable decisions - such as really long and heavy clothing to be (i) authentic and (ii) modest, even in the July heat.
Buckeye Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 It's worth an hour to listen to, and I'm looking for factual contradictions to what Bagley has presented in this talk. Especially about diverting rescue resources to save his whiskey and groceries. I'm doubtful you will find direct factual contradictions or instances where Bagley makes stuff up. However, I'm equally confident that the information he presents is the worst possible sound bites put in the worst possible frame. That's not to excuse those facts, but if one really wants to understand they need to get the entire picture. I did find some of Bagley's points to amount to a "so what?" For instance, he talks about the burial picture being inaccurate because the company did not have shovels and the ground was too cold to dig up. That's probably true, but who cares? PS - the same caution for getting the whole picture applies to the church's version of events as well. 2
CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Author Posted April 17, 2015 Thanks Buckeye, I had years of studying one side of the story with nothing but awe at the stories of them that took these treks. This caused even greater distress in hearing the other side of the story. Of course that talk is easy to hear/see Will's bias, but like you mention I assume its going to be historically correct.
smac97 Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Here is another resource. More thoughts later. Thanks, -Smac
SeekingUnderstanding Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Here is a Journal of Mormon History article by Bagley on the subject for those that want to skip the video"http://user.xmission.com/~research/central/handcart.pdf
Mormonmaniac Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 There were obvious bad decisions made by men in charge. That is not in dispute. What I think most fail to realize in it all is that the Lord blessed those faithful in their journey and in those families who suffered and lost loved ones. I had grandparents in both the Willie and Martin handcart companies and had grandparents and others who died on the trek. Their living legacy is in the strength of their generations that followed whose testimonies were born out of and strengthened by the tragic events. It is now estimated that of those pioneers of handcart companies tens of thousands of generations are alive today who have strong testimonies in the church.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 There were obvious bad decisions made by men in charge. That is not in dispute. What I think most fail to realize in it all is that the Lord blessed those faithful in their journey and in those families who suffered and lost loved ones. I had grandparents in both the Willie and Martin handcart companies and had grandparents and others who died on the trek. Their living legacy is in the strength of their generations that followed whose testimonies were born out of and strengthened by the tragic events. It is now estimated that of those pioneers of handcart companies tens of thousands of generations are alive today who have strong testimonies in the church. My mother once told me in all seriousness that some people on the trek were extremely blessed because they died and were put out of their misery. Other's were blessed to be able to live. I guess that's what is great about faith. Everything can be made into a faith promoting story or lesson if you just look at it in the right light.
CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Author Posted April 17, 2015 There were obvious bad decisions made by men in charge. That is not in dispute. What I think most fail to realize in it all is that the Lord blessed those faithful in their journey and in those families who suffered and lost loved ones. I had grandparents in both the Willie and Martin handcart companies and had grandparents and others who died on the trek. Their living legacy is in the strength of their generations that followed whose testimonies were born out of and strengthened by the tragic events. It is now estimated that of those pioneers of handcart companies tens of thousands of generations are alive today who have strong testimonies in the church. I wonder if maybe some of your grandparents or others would have survived if BY would not have diverted rescue resources from going to help them to save his whiskey and tobacco? Listen from about 55:00 minutes in. Dang have not listened to this for a long time ... just makes me sick. 1
Buckeye Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 There were obvious bad decisions made by men in charge. That is not in dispute. What I think most fail to realize in it all is that the Lord blessed those faithful in their journey and in those families who suffered and lost loved ones. I had grandparents in both the Willie and Martin handcart companies and had grandparents and others who died on the trek. Their living legacy is in the strength of their generations that followed whose testimonies were born out of and strengthened by the tragic events. It is now estimated that of those pioneers of handcart companies tens of thousands of generations are alive today who have strong testimonies in the church. I read recently that many of the members of the handcart companies chose to stay east for the winter rather than follow the command of the apostle who was leading them. Also, that many of those who suffered through the experience did not view it as a confirmation of their faith, but decided instead to leave the church. I can't find the source right now so would appreciate if anyone else has it. FWIW, that's what was most shocking to me. Not the mistakes of some leaders. But the fact that saints who experienced the same hardships came to starkly different conclusions about the church as a result. All my life I've heard stories in church about those who were grateful for the experience. It would have been nice to know that others had an opposite view. 2
readstoomuch Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Take Bagley and most faithful party line, stir well and come up closer to truth. Same with MMM. I have never seen evidence that they didn't try to save Handcart companies once they new where they were. Bagley is just too painful to watch for me, so I will have to rely on prior reading. 1
CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Author Posted April 17, 2015 Take Bagley and most faithful party line, stir well and come up closer to truth. Same with MMM. I have never seen evidence that they didn't try to save Handcart companies once they new where they were. Bagley is just too painful to watch for me, so I will have to rely on prior reading. As noted, I believe this is way different that mmm ... please note particulars about Bagley's "discovered history" of the establishment of the handcarts and the freight train with his steam engine, whiskey and tobacco which are false and need tempered by a "most faithful party line".
Calm Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 FWIW, that's what was most shocking to me. Not the mistakes of some leaders. But the fact that saints who experienced the same hardships came to starkly different conclusions about the church as a result. All my life I've heard stories in church about those who were grateful for the experience. It would have been nice to know that others had an opposite view.But it makes total sense given what we see going on around us these days and how people react differently to the same situation.
JLHPROF Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 As noted, I believe this is way different that mmm ... please note particulars about Bagley's "discovered history" of the establishment of the handcarts and the freight train with his steam engine, whiskey and tobacco which are false and need tempered by a "most faithful party line". I'll repost this here (that I put on another thread):What Brigham Young may or may not have done (most "history" makes a biased judge) is make a poor decision on where to allocate resources. Unless...are you seriously claiming that Brigham Young intentionally left women and children to freeze to death for some material items? That he took an active part in allowing them to die? That when presented with the choice of saving their lives or bringing back a steam engine he stood there and said "let them die, I want my engine"? If so, then that is absolutely more than a mistake and to me would have cost him his priesthood and office (and probably his salvation - innocent blood). But I don't for a second believe that interpretation of historical events.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) The real problem with trek is that I am being forced to go this year. Forget that! Edited April 17, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 1
Buckeye Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 But it makes total sense given what we see going on around us these days and how people react differently to the same situation. Yes, it makes sense. But the way the church teaches the history implies that everyone who went through the trial remained faithful. That's disingenuous in my view. 1
readstoomuch Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 As noted, I believe this is way different that mmm ... please note particulars about Bagley's "discovered history" of the establishment of the handcarts and the freight train with his steam engine, whiskey and tobacco which are false and need tempered by a "most faithful party line".fine. It still comes comes down to Bagley stretching the story when speaking and the faithful not admitting any mistakes in many circumstances. You'll have to take point with Bagley, I have given him enough of my time without a good return. 1
CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Author Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) I'll repost this here (that I put on another thread):What Brigham Young may or may not have done (most "history" makes a biased judge) is make a poor decision on where to allocate resources. Please take the time to listen to the talk jlhprof Unless...are you seriously claiming that Brigham Young intentionally left women and children to freeze to death for some material items? Apparently there was a freight train between the Willie and the Martin companies which had this huge steam engine along with 6 tons of BY's personal booze and tobacco and yes, if Will's story is factual BY turned resources away from the rescue to get his booze. That he took an active part in allowing them to die? That when presented with the choice of saving their lives or bringing back a steam engine he stood there and said "let them die, I want my engine"? Yes, except the engine was not going anywhere, its the 6 tons of booze and tobacco that was going to disappear if left abandoned on the trail If so, then that is absolutely more than a mistake and to me would have cost him his priesthood and office (and probably his salvation - innocent blood). That is similar to my conclusion. But I don't for a second believe that interpretation of historical events. Well, that's why I'm asking for scholarly rebuttals to Will's presentation of those historical events. And I'm afraid they will prove accurate. One thing that Will notes a few times: "Don't be afraid" Edited April 17, 2015 by CCRW
readstoomuch Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Sounds like a time for Robert Smith to ride up.
CCRW Posted April 17, 2015 Author Posted April 17, 2015 Sounds like a time for Robert Smith to ride up.yes, very much so.
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