Does The Lord Put Stumbling Blocks In Our Path?

[bluebell]

Excellent question.

 

I see a few options.

 

1- God doesn't really call prophets. Each individual is responsible for discerning the will of God.

2- God speaks to prophets and wants us to believe and follow them even when they are wrong. Fallibility doesn't matter.

3- God speaks to prophets but wants us to receive a personal witness from him about the validity of their words and teachings. He recognizes that they are fallible and wants us to recognize that also. They are a tool but not the final arbiter of all truth or access to God.

 

I think most people would choose #3, but that does not fit with the idea that we can take what the prophet says 'with a grain of salt'.

 

Taking something with a grain of salt means-"regard something as exaggerated; believe only part of something." 

[HappyJackWagon]

 

I think most people would choose #3, but that does not fit with the idea that we can take what the prophet says 'with a grain of salt'.

 

Taking something with a grain of salt means-"regard something as exaggerated; believe only part of something." 

Perhaps we interpret that idiom a little differently. No big deal. When I said "grain of salt" I simply meant that we take the prophets words as less than absolute, guaranteed truth until we have confirmation.

[Duncan]

I think maybe some challenges in life are individualized, like the Lord knew some would struggle with certain things that others don't. Admitedly this is a grey area for me as I don't know what to make of people who succumb to their challenges i.e suicide-but maybe they did as well as they could have given the circumstances and God knows the end from the beginning and that must mean everything in between. What God knows, how he tries to help us members or non members I don't have any idea

[Jeanne]

On another thread...

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a principle, as claimed by Scott Lloyd, that the Lord would leave just enough uncertainty (such as troubling historical information, teachings that seem out of step with human reason and lack of convincing scientific evidence) regarding whether the claims of the Church are true or false to make it necessary for sincere and humble seekers to exercise faith?

 

Or..

 

Is the uncertainty caused by the adversary?

When we hear and for some know that God wants us to return to him, why would he make it full of stumbling blocks?  It is like asking a small child to walk to you without legs..it is enough faith for just the restoration on it's own. 

[ksfisher]

Perhaps we interpret that idiom a little differently. No big deal. When I said "grain of salt" I simply meant that we take the prophets words as less than absolute, guaranteed truth until we have confirmation.

 

I understand what you're saying, but what if the confirmation never comes?  What if the Lord is expecting us to trust his prophet and not be "commanded in all things" by HIm.  I'm not saying this is what always happens, or even usually, but at times it does seem as though the confirmation comes after our faith has been tried. 

[stemelbow]

No, I am clearly not better then that.

I do not believe they are infallible. I do believe they will never lead us astray. I do not encourage blind obedience. I encourage people to use the Gift of the Holy Ghost to receive confirmation of a prophet's words and to unlock additional insights from them.

I would like to see an authoritative source that encourages second-guessing the prophets.

People who have reasonable questions should seek out revelation. If they do not they are going to hell. Kind of sad but it is what it is.

Either prophets are fallible, thus able to lead people astray, or they are not fallible. If ya think they won't lead anyone astray then you are only guessing, since you simply can't know the extent of their errors without you being able to know the extent of their errors.

[HappyJackWagon]

I understand what you're saying, but what if the confirmation never comes?  What if the Lord is expecting us to trust his prophet and not be "commanded in all things" by HIm.  I'm not saying this is what always happens, or even usually, but at times it does seem as though the confirmation comes after our faith has been tried. 

Fair question.

 

Regan's motto- trust but verify. I think in the absense of spiritual confirmation we utilize the other tools God has given us; conscience, reason, etc. I think this is often the case. Personally, I usually give the benefit of the doubt to the prophet unless there is some level of disonnance with what is said. Where there is dissonance I think there is responsibility to seek greater understanding through all the gifts he has given us.

 

I understand your point about confirmation coming after a trial of faith. While this may be true, it is also true that we are commanded to pray in all things and the truth will be made known unto us. We are taught that a stupor of thought (or perhaps no perceivable answer) is itself the answer. This kind of gets to the heart of the problem for prophets but also for each of us. We all seek imperfectly to discern God's will. We will all undoubtedly be wrong at various times on various issues. It's unavoidable. I think God is more concerned with the desire of our heart and the effort we put in to seeking answers, even if we don't receive answers or the answers don't agree with the church.

[The Nehor]

It would seem that the counsel to seek our own spiritual confirmation is itself a recognition that prophets will not always be correct and that we should test their words.

 

So even though you state that prophets make mistakes (like erroneous teachings about black inferiority) you do not acknowledge that those mistakes can lead the church astray. Fine. Certainly people define "astray" differently but the black/priesthood doctrine certainly seems to me a case of prophetic fallibility that had a negative influence on an entire race of people as well as the church as a whole. The essay admits the error even if you may be unwilling to.

No, the counsel to seek your own revelation is counsel against spiritual laziness not an admission that prophets can lead us to hell.

Either prophets are fallible, thus able to lead people astray, or they are not fallible. If ya think they won't lead anyone astray then you are only guessing, since you simply can't know the extent of their errors without you being able to know the extent of their errors.

Actually I do know the extent of their errors. They are not allowed to lead us off the path leading to eternal life. If mortality were a test about being factually right in every particular then prophets making errors could damn us. Fortunately that is not the test. If they were to lead us astray the sin will be answered on their heads.

People nitpicking the prophets are cutting themselves off from God and those who encourage doubting are encouraging others to cut themselves off from God. That kind of sin gets answered on their own heads.

[ksfisher]

Fair question.

 

Regan's motto- trust but verify. I think in the absense of spiritual confirmation we utilize the other tools God has given us; conscience, reason, etc. I think this is often the case. Personally, I usually give the benefit of the doubt to the prophet unless there is some level of disonnance with what is said. Where there is dissonance I think there is responsibility to seek greater understanding through all the gifts he has given us.

 

I understand your point about confirmation coming after a trial of faith. While this may be true, it is also true that we are commanded to pray in all things and the truth will be made known unto us. We are taught that a stupor of thought (or perhaps no perceivable answer) is itself the answer. This kind of gets to the heart of the problem for prophets but also for each of us. We all seek imperfectly to discern God's will. We will all undoubtedly be wrong at various times on various issues. It's unavoidable. I think God is more concerned with the desire of our heart and the effort we put in to seeking answers, even if we don't receive answers or the answers don't agree with the church.

 

Mostly agree, except that I would not so closely equate a "stupor of thought" with a lack of confirmation.  On a personal level I've experienced both and find them to be completely different. 

 

Many times the answers that we receive come only after spending a great deal of time studying the problem out in our mind.

 

I do feel it's a problem when members of the church dismiss the teachings of the prophet because they don't feel they've received a personal confirmation of a principle.  In my own life I find that at times confirmation has only come after I've grown spiritually or been able to cast away internal biases that a more complete understanding of a commandment is received. 

 

In short, I find that I'm usually the problem and not the prophet. 

[Teancum]

On another thread...

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a principle, as claimed by Scott Lloyd, that the Lord would leave just enough uncertainty (such as troubling historical information, teachings that seem out of step with human reason and lack of convincing scientific evidence) regarding whether the claims of the Church are true or false to make it necessary for sincere and humble seekers to exercise faith?

 

Or..

 

Is the uncertainty caused by the adversary?

 

 

I do not believe these claims are scriptural at all. I think apologists say this because the weight of the evidence seems clear and so they toss out this idea that God makes it all foggy so we can rely on faith.

Why is faith the penultimate principle when it comes to the most weighty of matters?

[Teancum]

I think the title of your thread and the question posed in your OP are two different issues.

1. I don't think God puts stumbling blocks (things designed to trip us up) in our path. That is the work of the adversary. God never nudges us towards falsehoods or sin.

2. God does choose to withhold some things that we might live by faith, seek additional revelation, learn, and grow.

These are two very different things.

 

 

Yet God hardened Pharaohs heart.....

[stemelbow]

Actually I do know the extent of their errors. They are not allowed to lead us off the path leading to eternal life. If mortality were a test about being factually right in every particular then prophets making errors could damn us. Fortunately that is not the test. If they were to lead us astray the sin will be answered on their heads.

Well that's confusing. You seem to suggest that they could lead us astray but if they did they'd have to answer for such leading astray. I think inherent in the idea of them being fallible is the possibility of them leading someone astray. I think you agree, but you don't want to.

People nitpicking the prophets are cutting themselves off from God and those who encourage doubting are encouraging others to cut themselves off from God. That kind of sin gets answered on their own heads.

Well how's about we let God decide what cuts individuals off from Him. Seems reasonable to me.

[The Nehor]

Well that's confusing. You seem to suggest that they could lead us astray but if they did they'd have to answer for such leading astray. I think inherent in the idea of them being fallible is the possibility of them leading someone astray. I think you agree, but you don't want to.Well how's about we let God decide what cuts individuals off from Him. Seems reasonable to me.

No, I said hypothetically if they led us astray it would be on their head. I do not believe it happens. I actually believe God is at the helm.

I am letting God make that determination. I am going off the scriptures and the words of the prophets or is that part fallible enough that you can discard it because you do not like it?

[Duncan]

I do not believe these claims are scriptural at all. I think apologists say this because the weight of the evidence seems clear and so they toss out this idea that God makes it all foggy so we can rely on faith.

Why is faith the penultimate principle when it comes to the most weighty of matters?

 

 

I think of the Apostles saying to Jesus, "Lord, increase our faith" Luke 17:5. I can only imagine what they must have been thinking when the Son of God comes around and says what he says and does what he does and their minds must have been blown a trillion ways to sunday and some stuff you just can't explain yet! BUT just after that Christ told them to have faith of a mustard seed, if you can believe this much then we'll work with that and overtime it'll get bigger. That's what happened to the apostles, their confidence grew and now they are dead they are learning more

[Teancum]

If God wants us to take everything His prophets say with a grain of salt, then the question becomes, why does He use prophets?

 

 

Maybe the question should be does God really use prophets....?

[stemelbow]

No, I said hypothetically if they led us astray it would be on their head. I do not believe it happens. I actually believe God is at the helm.

I am letting God make that determination. I am going off the scriptures and the words of the prophets or is that part fallible enough that you can discard it because you do not like it?

God's given me license to discard any of the nonsense I find in scripture. I ain't out stoning nobody, thanks to that license.

But your message is still garbled in my mind. You say prophets can't lead people astray, then say, well hypoethically, they could, but they haven't. Let's put aside the question whether any prophets have led anyone astray, and just leave it to the question of whether it is possible. You initially seemed to indicate, it ain't possible. Now it seems you are more open to the possibility.

I'm not sure how saying God being at the helm means anything about whether prophets make mistakes enough to lead someone astray?

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................................................

Is there a principle, as claimed by Scott Lloyd, that the Lord would leave just enough uncertainty (such as troubling historical information, teachings that seem out of step with human reason and lack of convincing scientific evidence) regarding whether the claims of the Church are true or false to make it necessary for sincere and humble seekers to exercise faith?

 

Or..

 

Is the uncertainty caused by the adversary?

Given that a good deal of the equation is balanced "on the other side," and that we are independent actors (noncontingent), I'd say that the Lord disciplines whom he loves most, though we all get an adequate test in this life.

 

Certainty and uncertainty are part of our psycho-social world (influence of friends, family, leaders, and enemies, and our own inner needs) and the level of spirituality and/or intellect we are able to bring to bear.

[ksfisher]

Yet God hardened Pharaohs heart.....

 

The JST changes this to Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

[Teancum]

The Lord can put stumbling blocks as he wishes. One of the perks of being God.

If some people put a quarter of the time they spent forming justifications for questioning the prophets into following the prophets we would have more translated people and no need for a new subdivision in hell.

 

 

Or if people would not pretend they really no what God says or want... after all has he talked to you directly?... maybe we would be a better off world since nobody really knows what God wants or if God is real....

[Teancum]

No, I am clearly not better then that.

I do not believe they are infallible. I do believe they will never lead us astray. I do not encourage blind obedience. I encourage people to use the Gift of the Holy Ghost to receive confirmation of a prophet's words and to unlock additional insights from them.

I would like to see an authoritative source that encourages second-guessing the prophets.

People who have reasonable questions should seek out revelation. If they do not they are going to hell. Kind of sad but it is what it is.

 

 

I feel sorry for you...

[HappyJackWagon]

 

 I actually believe God is at the helm.

I am letting God make that determination. I am going off the scriptures and the words of the prophets or is that part fallible enough that you can discard it because you do not like it?

There's nothing wrong with this belief as long as it is recognized as circular logic. "I believe the prophets won't lead me astray because the prophets said they wouldn't" isn't a strong argument to me when there is significant evidence that they have.

 

I'm curious what you mean by "God is at the helm."

Do you mean that in a general way God inspires his leaders or do you believe that Jesus sits with the brethren in the temple to direct their work during their weekly meetings? Which level of "God at the helm" are you?

[Teancum]

I think of the Apostles saying to Jesus, "Lord, increase our faith" Luke 17:5. I can only imagine what they must have been thinking when the Son of God comes around and says what he says and does what he does and their minds must have been blown a trillion ways to sunday and some stuff you just can't explain yet! BUT just after that Christ told them to have faith of a mustard seed, if you can believe this much then we'll work with that and overtime it'll get bigger. That's what happened to the apostles, their confidence grew and now they are dead they are learning more

 

 

So why do almost all religions claim faith as the penultimate principle for the most weighty of matters?

[Duncan]

So why do almost all religions claim faith as the penultimate principle for the most weighty of matters?

 

can you rephrase that? where does it say in our church that faith is more important than everything else? Faith is a moving cause of action but I wouldn't say faith is more or less important than repentance

[Teancum]

The JST changes this to Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

 

 

How convenient. I knew this by they way.  The JST is not authoritive even in the LDS Church as it is not viewed as completed.

[The Nehor]

Or if people would not pretend they really no what God says or want... after all has he talked to you directly?... maybe we would be a better off world since nobody really knows what God wants or if God is real....

Yes, he has talked to me. I feel sorry for you.