The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 So why do almost all religions claim faith as the penultimate principle for the most weighty of matters?Because it works probably. 2
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 can you rephrase that? where does it say in our church that faith is more important than everything else? Faith is a moving cause of action but I wouldn't say faith is more or less important than repentance I see posters here constantly refer to how important faith is. The Lectures on Faith promote it highly. Whenever I ask for evidence I am told I need to have more faith. IT is all a test just have faith.....
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Yes, he has talked to me. I feel sorry for you. Really, Face to face? Like sitting across the table from someone sharing a meal? Not some warm and fuzzy burning in the bosom that someone can get reading a moving book or watching a good movie......
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Because it works probably. Sure it works to keep people in the pews and not asking tough questions.
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 There's nothing wrong with this belief as long as it is recognized as circular logic. "I believe the prophets won't lead me astray because the prophets said they wouldn't" isn't a strong argument to me when there is significant evidence that they have. I'm curious what you mean by "God is at the helm."Do you mean that in a general way God inspires his leaders or do you believe that Jesus sits with the brethren in the temple to direct their work during their weekly meetings? Which level of "God at the helm" are you?If you can find me someone burning in hell because they followed the living prophet's counsel I will reconsider my position. It might be circular until God confirms it via the Holy Ghost and then it becomes divine.I believe he inspires, directs, and visits as needed. Fortunately the apostles are not amateurs and have been involved with revelation most of their lives and know how it works so visitations are rarely needed. I am relatively young and lived a more checkered life then most of them and I know how to recognize revelation so it requires little faith for me to believe they do too. 1
bluebell Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Maybe the question should be does God really use prophets....?The bible is clear on that, so from a Christian perspective that question has already been answered. 1
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Really, Face to face? Like sitting across the table from someone sharing a meal? Not some warm and fuzzy burning in the bosom that someone can get reading a moving book or watching a good movie......Not that I know of face to face but revelation is rarely a fuzzy burning for me. It is usually verbalizations in my brain that is crystal clear like pure intelligence entering my mind accompanied by a feeling somewhat like the chills combined with a non-sexual orgasmic ecstasy feeling but that is just me trying to put something into words that our language does not have verbiage for something because it is unique from individual to individual and many people rarely or never experience it.I have felt that thrill in a book or movie. Not the same. 2
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Sure it works to keep people in the pews and not asking tough questions.Yes, those poor dupes who sit there like fools while you have seen through it all. Have you considered that your worldview is appealing to you because it gratifies your pride and ego? 2
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I feel sorry for you...I am happy. I have and feel the love of a God on a daily basis. I pity you. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Yes, those poor dupes who sit there like fools while you have seen through it all. Have you considered that your worldview is appealing to you because it gratifies your pride and ego?You realize you're doing the exact thing you're accusing him of doing, right?
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 God's given me license to discard any of the nonsense I find in scripture. I ain't out stoning nobody, thanks to that license.But your message is still garbled in my mind. You say prophets can't lead people astray, then say, well hypoethically, they could, but they haven't. Let's put aside the question whether any prophets have led anyone astray, and just leave it to the question of whether it is possible. You initially seemed to indicate, it ain't possible. Now it seems you are more open to the possibility.I'm not sure how saying God being at the helm means anything about whether prophets make mistakes enough to lead someone astray?Actually you should be not out stoning people because God removed that part of the Law.I am not open to the possibility that it is happening. I am saying that if it did it would not be my problem if I followed him. I trust God to make sure the prophets lead us right. They have been and may be wrong on some facts and minor things and that is okay. Following them will still lead me to exaltation. The naysayers here cannot promise me that. They promise a nebulous "ever learni but never coming to a knowledge of the truth" mentality where everything is tentative. 2
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 You realize you're doing the exact thing you're accusing him of doing, right?Nope. I am a relatively dimwitted sheep following a shepherd. That does not leave a lot of room for pride about my superiority. Subordination requires humility. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I am a relatively dimwitted sheep.OK- as long as you're willing to admit that.
Popular Post The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Popular Post Posted April 9, 2015 OK- as long as you're willing to admit that. To be clear I mean dimwitted in comparison to the shepherd not to the other dimwitted sheep a few of whom are brighter then me but most are a lot dumber. 5
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 The bible is clear on that, so from a Christian perspective that question has already been answered. Bible believers other than LDS do not think God speaks through prophets or apostles today.
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Not that I know of face to face but revelation is rarely a fuzzy burning for me. It is usually verbalizations in my brain that is crystal clear like pure intelligence entering my mind accompanied by a feeling somewhat like the chills combined with a non-sexual orgasmic ecstasy feeling but that is just me trying to put something into words that our language does not have verbiage for something because it is unique from individual to individual and many people rarely or never experience it.I have felt that thrill in a book or movie. Not the same. So no God has really not spoken to you. You just think he has. And how do you know many rarely experience it. Wow. What hubris you exhibit in your comments. Edited April 9, 2015 by Teancum
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Yes, those poor dupes who sit there like fools while you have seen through it all. Have you considered that your worldview is appealing to you because it gratifies your pride and ego? No because it does not at all. It has actually causes me much pain to realize I was dupped most my life.
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I am happy. I have and feel the love of a God on a daily basis. I pity you. I am happy. I think you may be self deluded. I pity you.
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 You realize you're doing the exact thing you're accusing him of doing, right? Nah it is ok for the believer but not for us evil skeptics...... May posts are simply mirroring the mighty Nehor......
JLHPROF Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 So no God has really not spoken to you. You just think he has. And how do you know many rarely experience it. Wow. What hubris you exhibit in your comments. It must be hard to have to deal with so much doubt instead of faith.Like Nehor I also have heard God speak actual words to my mind and spirit. Not a prompting, not a fuzzy feeling, no burnings, but as Joseph Smith said "the Holy Ghost has NO OTHER EFFECT than pure intelligence". I have been told things in words, not feelings. And to argue with those words is not a matter of interpretation. They say what they say. God speaking to man through the spirit is about knowledge, intelligence etc. 1
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 So no God has really not spoken to you. You just think he has. And how do you know many rarely experience it. Wow. What hubris you exhibit in your comments.So the voices in my head that sometimes tell me the future accurately are just my mad delusions? My great happiness comes from madness. If this is not tied to God and is actually intrinsic to me I really should use this power for personal gain. Harem and winning lotto numbers here I come.No because it does not at all. It has actually causes me much pain to realize I was dupped most my life.Thank you for sharing your sour grapes with the whole class.I am happy. I think you may be self deluded. I pity you.I pity you more times infinity. 1
The Nehor Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Nah it is ok for the believer but not for us evil skeptics...... May posts are simply mirroring the mighty Nehor...... You really should just stop being evil.
Mystery Meat Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Sure it works to keep people in the pews and not asking tough questions. Sorry Teancum, This comment right here is either ignorant at best, or down right condescending at worst. I have asked and dealt with the tough questions. I am very aware of the issues of Church History and the Modern Church (with regards to the latter, perhaps moreso than all but a select few on the board). I don't think you understand faith. I wish I was the right person to teach. Sadly, I am not. 2
JLHPROF Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I have asked and dealt with the tough questions. I am very aware of the issues of Church History and the Modern Church I feel the same way. I am aware of all the "tough questions" that seem to cause peoples faith crises and have more than made my peace with them. From Joseph's polygamy & polyandry to the Church's current issues with feminists and SSM supporters. I've been exposed to them all.Even if I hadn't this board throws EVERY argument against the Church right down our throats and it doesn't waver the faith at all. In fact it has taught me not how to ignore these "issues" but how to address them and search out God's actual truth, not man's. I also wish I could bring others to do that too. 2
Teancum Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 It must be hard to have to deal with so much doubt instead of faith.Like Nehor I also have heard God speak actual words to my mind and spirit. Not a prompting, not a fuzzy feeling, no burnings, but as Joseph Smith said "the Holy Ghost has NO OTHER EFFECT than pure intelligence". I have been told things in words, not feelings. And to argue with those words is not a matter of interpretation. They say what they say. God speaking to man through the spirit is about knowledge, intelligence etc. It is not doubt. Faith is invoked by all revealed religions when there are not answers to tough questions or when they lack evidence. "Just have faith...your faith is being tested...and so on..." Extraordinary claims should have evidence to back them up. Because my faith was placed in a religion based on limited information and a faith promoting story that was not what the fact reveal I am loathe to trust faith and want evidence. Why is the burden on me or other skeptics As I have gone on this journey realizing the claims of Mormonism are dubious at best I have had what you may call pure intelligence more than I have did before. Things that I took on faith are now so clearly nonsensical it can border on the absurd. And with all due respect many of the arguments of the believers are so steeped in dogma and a priori assumptions that they come across as absurd as well. and I do not mean that rudely because I can say that and actually respect your personal spiritual experience and be quite fine that it is valid for you. I don't think the same respect though is given to me by you and other believers for my honest points of view. 1
Recommended Posts