How Confident Are You That Your Beliefs Are True?

[SmileyMcGee]

(Sorry Bukowski, this thread may violate your views on truth and knowledge)

 

How confident are you in your beliefs in the essence of the restored gospel? By essence I mean the key points of the restored gospel: that Jesus is the Christ and he restored his gospel, church, priesthood, etc through Joseph Smith, we have a living prophet, etc. Initially I wanted to ask you to assign a confidence level to your belief or lack thereof, between 0% and 100% confidence. However, I find that quantifying confidence is rather tricky and sometimes arbitrary. Instead, let's imagine a hypothetical scenario that can act as proxy for quantitative measures.

 

Imagine that you encounter a person who can objectively determine the truthfulness of the restored gospel. They know the truth. Also assume that you are willing to entertain this person in a little challenge they propose. They ask you state your belief, either that the restored gospel is true or false, and to offer something of value that would be lost if your belief turns out to be wrong. However, should your belief turn out to be correct, the value of your bet would be doubled. What thing, if any, would you not risk in this challenge?

 

For many of us the thing of greatest worth in our lives is a family member or other loved one. I would imagine that for most people, risking the life of a child or grandchild would require a confidence level at or near 100%. For many who feel they have less than 100% confidence a sum of money that they can put up may offer a nice proxy for a percentage. Some may be so unsure that they may only be willing to risk very little.

 

It is often easy to say "I know without a shadow of a doubt" that the restored gospel is true, but when you really imagine losing something or someone of value in a challenge of your beliefs I think we may sometimes be taken back by our initial feelings and reactions. We may also appreciate what we don't really know and may be inspire to learn more to better cope with our uncertainty.

 

Since I am giving the challenge I will participate first. My feelings towards the restored gospel run all over the spectrum. There are things that I love, things that I don't love so much, things that I think are vital, and things that I think are worthless. There are parts of the gospel and church that I find fascinating and other things that I love to criticize. In the end, the balance in my mind is currently tipped in favor of a belief that the restored gospel is not true. However, I would not be willing to bet the life of a loved one on this belief. I think I would be willing to risk 20-30 years of healthy/happy life in this challenge. Years of healthy/happy life are important to me since I'm unsure of the existence of an afterlife. But I would bet 20-30 years on my belief for the chance to gain an additional 20-30.

 

PS: I realize this challenge is by no means scientific, and likely could see many improvements to better achieve its objective, but I think it may be a fun, enlightening exercise nonetheless.

[Sky]

I recognize the good that the gospel contains and I that it's something I need.  I can't prove it to anybody and still have lots of questions.  But I feel like it leads me to Christ, and therefore makes my life better and richer - so I stick with it.

[teddyaware]

Since the scenario you present is something that could only be made into a real-life situation by a terribly cruel and diabolical mind -- like that of a murderous terrorist -- I won't answer your question as if I was under such horrific duress (I'm not accusing you of such a thing because I understand you're presenting this thought-provoking challenge in good faith with no harmful intent). But I will simply say I'm 100% sure the Restored Gospel is true.  

Edited April 8, 2015 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

I'm going to say I don't believe that God spoke with JS on a continuous basis like in the D & C. I don't believe God does a whole lot of hands on. But I do want to believe in angels or spirits that may have inspired JS. But believe that Joseph may have taken the church places that God didn't approve, but let happen. So the church is true as long as it leads people to Christlike behaviour, which it does do most of the time. In fact the church isn't perfect but some people in it are pretty close. And will admit since my faith struggles, I don't strive to stay near Him as much because sometimes I may not believe He's actually there. Where before there was zero doubt, which says a lot, or which means the church helped that liaison with Christ for me. But it may be that I need to be on my own to know and find Him, so it will be richer and stronger.

I'm pretty confident these are my beliefs at the moment, and would never want the scenario the OP presented.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

(Sorry Bukowski, this thread may violate your views on truth and knowledge)

How confident are you in your beliefs in the essence of the restored gospel? By essence I mean the key points of the restored gospel: that Jesus is the Christ and he restored his gospel, church, priesthood, etc through Joseph Smith, we have a living prophet, etc. Initially I wanted to ask you to assign a confidence level to your belief or lack thereof, between 0% and 100% confidence. However, I find that quantifying confidence is rather tricky and sometimes arbitrary. Instead, let's imagine a hypothetical scenario that can act as proxy for quantitative measures.

Imagine that you encounter a person who can objectively determine the truthfulness of the restored gospel. They know the truth. Also assume that you are willing to entertain this person in a little challenge they propose. They ask you state your belief, either that the restored gospel is true or false, and to offer something of value that would be lost if your belief turns out to be wrong. However, should your belief turn out to be correct, the value of your bet would be doubled. What thing, if any, would you not risk in this challenge?

For many of us the thing of greatest worth in our lives is a family member or other loved one. I would imagine that for most people, risking the life of a child or grandchild would require a confidence level at or near 100%. For many who feel they have less than 100% confidence a sum of money that they can put up may offer a nice proxy for a percentage. Some may be so unsure that they may only be willing to risk very little.

It is often easy to say "I know without a shadow of a doubt" that the restored gospel is true, but when you really imagine losing something or someone of value in a challenge of your beliefs I think we may sometimes be taken back by our initial feelings and reactions. We may also appreciate what we don't really know and may be inspire to learn more to better cope with our uncertainty.

Since I am giving the challenge I will participate first. My feelings towards the restored gospel run all over the spectrum. There are things that I love, things that I don't love so much, things that I think are vital, and things that I think are worthless. There are parts of the gospel and church that I find fascinating and other things that I love to criticize. In the end, the balance in my mind is currently tipped in favor of a belief that the restored gospel is not true. However, I would not be willing to bet the life of a loved one on this belief. I think I would be willing to risk 20-30 years of healthy/happy life in this challenge. Years of healthy/happy life are important to me since I'm unsure of the existence of an afterlife. But I would bet 20-30 years on my belief for the chance to gain an additional 20-30.

PS: I realize this challenge is by no means scientific, and likely could see many improvements to better achieve its objective, but I think it may be a fun, enlightening exercise nonetheless.

100 percent.

Your whole premise is ridiculous by your own admission. You contradict yourself.

But I will shut up and not get into it. You assume that someone has scientific knowledge of the gospel and yet admit that the challenge is not scientific. It can't be.

But that's enough from me.

Edited April 8, 2015 by mfbukowski

[SmileyMcGee]

Since the scenario you present is something that could only be made into a real-life situation by a terribly cruel and diabolical mind -- like that of a murderous terrorist -- I won't answer your question as if I was under such horrific duress (I'm not accusing you of such a thing because I understand you're presenting this thought-provoking challenge in good faith with no harmful intent). But I will simply say I'm 100% sure the Restored Gospel is true.

Let me just clarify that you don't have to bet the thing of most value to you. The value to you of the thing you are betting is just a proxy for confidence and you are not being forced to bet a specific thing. If your confidence is low you can bet your next meal. By stating that you are 100% confident you are effectively stating that you could bet anything of value, even that thing or person of most value, because you are perfectly confident that you won't lose it.

Edited April 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[SmileyMcGee]

100 percent.

Your whole premise is ridiculous by your own admission. You contradict yourself.

good grief take it easy MFB. You don't have to participate if you feel it intellectually beneath you. It's just a simple exercise to gauge confidence not a treatise on the nature of truth.

And I'm shocked, quite frankly, that you put 100%. I feel like I don't know you anymore...or never knew you.

Edited April 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[SmileyMcGee]

100 percent.

Your whole premise is ridiculous by your own admission. You contradict yourself.

But I will shut up and not get into it. You assume that someone has scientific knowledge of the gospel and yet admit that the challenge is not scientific. It can't be.

But that's enough from me.

The scenario is hypothetical; the design of the thought experiment is not scientific; I.e., a design found scribbled on a paper napkin. I don't believe any one can know, I just assume it for purposes of this thought experiment.

Do you ever relax and just humor people for the sake of conversation?

Edited April 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[Nofear]

All I can say is that I've never been wrong. I thought I was once, but I was mistaken.

[JLHPROF]

100%.

On the "key points" anyway.

And probably on more non-key points than many, but not everything.

The gospel is wonderfully interconnected. If I 100% believe that Joseph was a prophet and spoke for God, received revelation regularly and restored the gospel, then every teaching and practice contained in that is believed as well.

[randyj]

absolutely 100%      Although I have questions about many things, and acknowledge there is so much I have yet to learn about the gospel....yet I can with with full confidence and assurance state that I am 100% confident in the truthfulness of this Restored Gospel.   I'm reminded of the talk by Elder Anderson of the Qo12 entitled "It's true isn't it? What else matters?".     When I was 19yrs old, already married 3 1/2 yrs with 2 kids and 1 on the way (I know I know....we couldn't even afford a TV)...we were struggling SO hard.  I was trying to raise my family in a Christ centered way...and striving to do all I could to make a very difficult situation ...better.

 

I prayed to God..that somehow...some way he could give me something..anything...that could steel and gird me up for the inevitable storms of difficulty that were gathering on the horizon.  Skipping all the details of how this opportunity came to be....but the Lord blessed me to be in the presence of his Prophet....it was just Pres. Kimball and my wife and I...on the sidewalk outside the Mission home in Indep. Mo. at 10:30pm during the summer of 1977.  I was given at that moment in time the absolute, proof positive assurance, independent of anyone else, my testimony....that I was standing in the presence of the Lord's Prophet on the earth.  I'm not given to celebrity. I knew it wasn't that.  To borrow from the Prophet Joseph..."I knew it, and I knew that God knew it....and I could not deny it."   All it took was about 120 seconds...and everything changed.  The Lord knew exactly what I needed...and he gave it to me.  I am 57 yrs old now, and even as I type this my eyes get teary as I remember that moment.  That single experience has gotten me through so much.  I've been married now going on 42yrs...6 kids and 20 grandchildren.  The Lord blessed me beyond measure.  He knows me perfectly....and knew exactly what I needed....and he gave it to me.

 

So yes....this gospel is 100% true.

Edited April 8, 2015 by randyj

[Mystery Meat]

I will answer this way:

 

I KNOW that the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (Mormonism) is good and inspires and motivates me to be more like Christ and to serve him. I also KNOW that all things that are good are inspired by God. Therefore I KNOW Mormonism is inspired of God. 

 

I suppose I have quite a few questions that I will have answered at some future point, but I KNOW that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is of God.

[stemelbow]

“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”

― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

[Senator]

I will answer this way:

 

I KNOW that the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (Mormonism) is good and inspires and motivates me to be more like Christ and to serve him. I also KNOW that all things that are good are inspired by God. Therefore I KNOW Mormonism is inspired of God. 

 

I suppose I have quite a few questions that I will have answered at some future point, but I KNOW that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is of God.

 

That's a carefully worded statement....

 

But I like it!

[CA Steve]

I have an old tee shirt that I wear occasionally. On the front it says:

 

"If I agreed with you, we would both be wrong."

 

On the back it says:

 

"We're probably both wrong anyways."

 

 

[Mystery Meat]

That's a carefully worded statement....

 

But I like it!

 

I'm an attorney, so carefully worded statements are what I do for a living.

[Mystery Meat]

“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”

― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

 

I think there is a lot of truth to this statement. However, I also think it misses the mark. This quote doesn't seem to allow for conviction (or as Pirsig calls it being a fanatic) to arise from a deep and personal communion with the divine. I must admit that in the past I got all riled up, mostly because I wasn't as sure as I thought I was about my faith. While I still make strong defenses, I am much more even tempered because I am more sure than before. So I think there is some truth, yet someone can be fanatically dedicated to Mormonism based on something other than doubt.

[churchistrue]

I think this is a great exercise.  It doesn't surprise me when people don't want to engage in the exercise.  Articulating your faith in this way is a really vulnerable thing to do, and many of us have online personas that we feel we'd be putting at risk if we didn't answer loudly with "YES SIRREE 100% EVERYTHING ABOUT THE GOSPEL!!!".  I understand that kind of response, but I don't know if that's valuable, because it's probably not that honest and it causes an unnecessary separation with those that experience normal doubts.  I at least hope that we could all take this exercise and answer it privately.  It's a valuable exercise.

[thesometimesaint]

Confident enough to have dedicated the last 44 years of my life to it, and hopefully the rest of eternity.

[Mystery Meat]

I think this is a great exercise.  It doesn't surprise me when people don't want to engage in the exercise.  Articulating your faith in this way is a really vulnerable thing to do, and many of us have online personas that we feel we'd be putting at risk if we didn't answer loudly with "YES SIRREE 100% EVERYTHING ABOUT THE GOSPEL!!!".  I understand that kind of response, but I don't know if that's valuable, because it's probably not that honest and it causes an unnecessary separation with those that experience normal doubts.  I at least hope that we could all take this exercise and answer it privately.  It's a valuable exercise.

 

I don't think your response is fair. You don't get to be the judge of everyone else's testimony. In fact it seems you may be transposing your confidence unto others. I stand by what I said. As for not participating in his exercise, I don't find much value in it. Would I be willing to be the life of my wife, children, mother, father, etc. on the truthfulness of the gospel? First, the exercise is stupid because I don't think, even hypothetically, that I get to put anyone's life on the line for the truthfulness of the gospel. I am willing to put my own life on the line to show my dedication to the Gospel. 

[mfbukowski]

good grief take it easy MFB. You don't have to participate if you feel it intellectually beneath you. It's just a simple exercise to gauge confidence not a treatise on the nature of truth.

And I'm shocked, quite frankly, that you put 100%. I feel like I don't know you anymore...or never knew you.

To me your question was "How confident are you that you have chosen the right path for yourself?"

100 percent, because otherwise I would not have chosen it.

To suppose it is the wrong path doesn't even make sense to me.

Suppose you found out it is wrong to breathe, would yo stop?

Mormonism is who I am, there is no right or wrong about it.

35 years ago, I found a voice for who I have always been without having the words to say it. I am not going anywhere, there is nowhere else to go. I would have to be a different person to see it differently.

Edited April 8, 2015 by mfbukowski

[UtahTexan]

I am confident in what I believe.  I am happy with what I believe.  What I believe brings me closer to God, the desire to do right and good, and the promise of forever.

 

And...it gives me Peace.

[SmileyMcGee]

To me your question was "How confident are you that you have chosen the right path for yourself?"

100 percent, because otherwise I would not have chosen it.

To suppose it is the wrong path doesn't even make sense to me.

Suppose you found out it is wrong to breathe, would yo stop?

Mormonism is who I am, there is no right or wrong about it.

35 years ago, I found a voice for who I have always been without having the words to say it. I am not going anywhere, there is nowhere else to go. I would have to be a different person to see it differently.

There's the MFB I know. I didn't expect you to entertain the exercise (nothing wrong with that), hence the disclaimer at the beginning of my initial post. Edited April 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[Jeanne]

I'm going to say I don't believe that God spoke with JS on a continuous basis like in the D & C. I don't believe God does a whole lot of hands on. But I do want to believe in angels or spirits that may have inspired JS. But believe that Joseph may have taken the church places that God didn't approve, but let happen. So the church is true as long as it leads people to Christlike behaviour, which it does do most of the time. In fact the church isn't perfect but some people in it are pretty close. And will admit since my faith struggles, I don't strive to stay near Him as much because sometimes I may not believe He's actually there. Where before there was zero doubt, which says a lot, or which means the church helped that liaison with Christ for me. But it may be that I need to be on my own to know and find Him, so it will be richer and stronger.

I'm pretty confident these are my beliefs at the moment, and would never want the scenario the OP presented.

Tacenda, so enjoyed this honest post.  I am so  on the edge as to whether God is involved in anything anymore..but knowing the you and others share some of he same thoughts keeps me open..and searching..thank you.

[The Nehor]

Enough to jump off a cliff for them though admittedly I just like cliff jumping.